"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Knapsu & Laestadian Gender Roles

Tuesday, May 31, 2005

Knapsu & Laestadian Gender Roles

Perhaps the reason I know more female than male ex-OALC members is because I am female. Or is it because more women leave?

Mikael Niemi describes in his book "Populärmusik från Vittula", the meaning of the Meänkieli word Knapsu. Knapsu means not male, womanish, something that women should be and do, not men. Niemi writes that men's role in Tornedalia (where Laestadianism runs strong) is built upon one thing: To not be Knapsu.

Is Laestadianism anti-Knapsu?

37 comments:

  1. I sure think so--if a person wrote down a list of all the things that are unacceptable for women and compared it to a list of the things that are unacceptable for men in the OALC--I would bet the women's list would be a lot longer. This is a church that allows men all of their vanities, such as trucks and guns and guy stuff, but women are not supposed to want things that appeal to feminine feelings. It's almost like this religion was developed by some old guy that didn't like women.

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  2. When are the June meetings in Brush Prairie?

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  3. "Tornedalia where Laestadianism runs strong" There lives only reindeers these days - allmost all laestadians have moved south.

    What is the name of that book in english - is it translated?

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  4. Look we don't want to be tempted
    by your feminine ways. The first
    time that happened was with Eve
    with disastrous results!

    We make the rules so that you
    don't adorn yourselves and make
    us lose control once again.

    ( Tongue-in-cheek of course)

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  5. I agree with the Tornedalia men.

    Who wants to be a sissy Knapsu!

    But alas there are few men-only
    options today:
    Killing moose-Woman Hunters
    Felling Logs-Woman Machine
    Operaters
    Fighting-Woman Boxers

    A partial list of woman:

    Engineers
    Air Force Pilots
    Combat Soldiers
    Long Haul Truck Drivers
    Wrestlers
    And the last straw:
    Indianapolis Race Car Driver

    How the AntiKnapsu men are
    going to hold back that tidal
    wave is difficult to see.

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  6. What is gender role anyway?
    It seems to have disappeared!

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  7. I agree with the first comment posted above. Of course it's a man's church. Tell me how long you guys would stick around if the OALC were like this:

    Men had to wear scarves; they preached against going to the barber shop for a nice haircut; business meetings leaned toward women's input; men's input wasn't important; men had to listen to women preach; fancy cars and trucks were preached as sinful; hockey nights and other male activities were preached as sinful; fashionable men's clothing was preached as sinful, etc.

    I doubt the men would stick around long. Frankly I'm amazed that so many women put up with it.

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  8. Men-To not be Knapsu (womanish)
    What's wrong with that?

    Women-To not be mannish.
    What's wrong with that?

    What's feminine about female
    wrestlers, boxers, and combat
    soldiers?

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  9. First poster here, aka LLLreader: Have you ever listened to some of the Finn "poys" talk about what they shot on their last hunting trip? If that isn't vanity I don't know what the definition would be. Some of these guys go on very long hunting trips, while the little lady is home taking care of kids. My son worked for a time with a group of OALC men. He knew absolutely nothing about how strong the seperation of gender roles can be with some of those families. He is a very masculine, big man, and can diaper a baby, cook a dinner, and do some housework with the best of them. He was stunned at how chauvanistic some of these guys are. He had packed his own lunch one day and the guys couldn't believe it. The discussion started about how much their wives did for them. One guy said his wife made his breakfast, packed his lunch, and then went out and warmed up his truck for him on cold days. All denied ever helping with housework or kids. I'm sure some of that was just boasting, but how idiotic to be proud of how little you do to help your wife. A OALC member I know told me he was going to ask the preachers if it would be alright if his wife had her tubes tied. Her Dr. told her she absolutely shouldn't have more children, since it could be life threatening. This hero has to clear it with the preachers. I say "stand up and be a man-take care of your wife". I do know, however, that there are men in the OALC who are very involved with their kids and help out around home.

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  10. How about the husband getting a vasectomy so his wife doesn't have to go through a surgery - she already had how many of his babies? And what's this having to go ask - just do it and take care of your family. These private family matters have zero to do with salvation.

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  11. Here we go again! We're generalizing. I can think of lots of oalc men who are great fathers, husbands and are not chauvinistic pigs. I agree the women get the short end of the stick at the OALC as far as their rules go. I don't mean to wreck the fun or anything but if we're going to critique let's remember to keep our credibility intact.

    I agree about the vasectomy thing, it seems like the least you could do for your wife but we all know that's not going to happen. It's hard enough for us guys to go through, without the whole damnation thing thrown in as well. I know if I thought it would send me through the gates of hell I would have never gotten mine.

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  12. I beg your pardon - it's fair to generalize in this case. In general, that's how it is in that church.

    I'm sure it's hard for guys to go through vasectomies - it's also hard for women to go through childbirth, much less time after time after time after time after time after time. And how sad that men believe they would be eternally damned if they take action to help take care of their wives and children.

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  13. My point is your making the men look like such creeps. I know a lot of OALC men who are great husbands and have loving wives who don't "warm up their trucks for them", in fact the ones I know would be sleeping in the garage if they suggested it. If outsiders read this blog their getting an exagerated view in my opinion.

    Neither the men or women would accept vasectomies or any form of birth control. This is not an OALC exclusive. I have a good friend who is Catholic who is adamant against this as well. He let me know how he felt when I had my vasectomy, which was kind of strange being rebuked by someone who was not OALC. I'm accustomed to the OALC rebuke and I must say it was kind of fun to be chastized by a different belief system for a change.

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  14. I grew up in an area where the preacher who wielded the most power and influence was a hostile, anti-female, insecure man. You're talking an entire congregation with many women, wives, daughters, and little girls, under his spell. He's old now and doesn't preach much, but he's made his mark for the next few generations, unless people have the strength and wisdom to open their eyes. Yet what you hear is how "precious" it all is.
    No thanks. Hey, if you like it, go for it.

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  15. How many women are compromising
    their beliefs as mentioned
    elsewhere in this blog to save
    their marriage and hold their
    family together?


    Is this wrong?

    How do they get out of this
    dilemma?

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  16. To the poster above who talks about great OALC husbands - that is true. But where are they when they should be speaking out for women? Why their silence about sex abuse? You'd think they'd be outraged that nothing is said. These great husbands go to church, sit there, go home, and say and do nothing to help change things. I'm sure they're afraid to rock the boat, or to take on a "reputation".

    To the poster above who asks "how do they get out of this dilemma?", it's difficult but not impossible. Doing the right thing is not always the easiest route. It just depends on what is important to you. If it's more important to compromise your beliefs, then that is what you will do. These kinds of actions go on everyday, all around us, at work, at school, in politics.

    If you want out bad enough, you'll find a way.

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  17. The OALC men are sure catching
    hell on this site.

    Where are the woman in these
    matters? Are they 100% off the
    hook?

    Why did they marry these guys
    in the first place? Didn't they
    learn from their own mom's
    treatment?

    Why did the husbands pick these
    women?They must of liked their
    non-assertive behavior.

    Why did the wives pick these
    men? They could see their
    dominant behavior.

    And the list goes on.

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  18. The OALC men are sure catching
    hell on this site.

    Where are the woman in these
    matters? Are they 100% off the
    hook?

    Why did they marry these guys
    in the first place? Didn't they
    learn from their own mom's
    treatment?

    Why did the husbands pick these
    women?They must of liked their
    non-assertive behavior.

    Why did the wives pick these
    men? They could see their
    dominant behavior.

    And the list goes on.

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  19. No, women aren't off the hook for decisions they make. The point is that women don't count for much in the OALC. They're wanted to cook meals and clean up in the kitchen there. And they don't seem to mind!

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  20. I certainly am not saying that all OALC men are creeps. What some of them do in terms of how they treat their wives is to just do what they have been taught. What some men don't understand is that there is a more Godly way to live then the way they are living now. I'm going to give two bad examples of statements made by men I know concerning their wives. At a family gathering one cousin said with some degree of contempt, "I don't know when "Sally" is going to give me another kid. "Sally", who I know has some health issues, looked stricken. This poor gal is a failure in her husbands eyes. I think he is a creep. At another gathering there was some discussion about a Dr. telling someone to not have any more children. A guy made the comment, "If a Dr. told my wife to not have more kids I would divorce her". Definitely a creep. There are other OALC men who are kind, wonderful husbands. The difficulity with this religion is that it allows for male abuse of power. Some of the OALC families could have better lives if they would take back the power they give the preachers and give it to God where it belongs.

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  21. I will say it is unfair to generalize the entire church, because in different localities (i.e. Minneapolis and Detroit-- hmm... more educated, maybe?) I have seen men that are more active in their children's and wife's life. In Washington, however, they are generally lumps.
    Not because they are terrible, but because that is what they have been taught and all they have ever seen.
    I have never seen my husband be such a great father and spouse until after he came out of the church. I am so proud of how far he has come, and he would tell you that himself.
    I do have to say, I have gone on some of my kid's field trips and seen OALC fathers there with their children.
    Way to go, guys!!!!

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  22. "they are generally lumps", "I think he is a creep"

    Thank You! You are so sweet! Aarne Tanninen / Washington

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  23. Well Aarne--I see you went right for the words that you could be offended by and feel some of that old OALC resentment that some folks do so well. Didn't you read these statements? "There are other OALC men who are kind, wonderful husbands", "I know a lot of OALC men who are great husbands", "A lot of OALC men are great fathers, husbands, and not chauvinistic pigs", "I'm certainly not saying all OALC men are creeps", "There are men in the OALC that are very involved with their kids and help around the house". I thought that most posters wanted to temper their comments with the recognition that not all OALC men are thoughtless towards their wives. If you read the posts that's what you would see if you were looking with an open mind. The point folks are making is that the old way of treating women like cattle isn't good for anyone, including the men.

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  24. Hey Aarne,

    Where do you fall in here? Are you a lump or do you treat your wife well? Something to think about, huh?!

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  25. Hi, It seems to me that the issue is not whether there are "good" husbands/fathers, for of course there are. But that the actions/words of the ones who treat their family with no respect, are acceptable in the eyes of the church.

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  26. -Hey Aarne, Where do you fall in here?
    -do you treat your wife well?

    My mom tells me all the time not to call people bad names. If I get married I will treat my wife well. I am now 13 years.

    Aarne T. Washington D.C.

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  27. Just wanted to mention that the real Aarne Tanninen was a well known Finnish journalist who for decades reported from Washington DC, London and Moscow for Finnish papers, radio and TV.

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  28. LLLreader wants to say a bit in terms of what the men face in the OALC. I have spoken up for the women, but I don't think the guys have such an easy time of it either. If you are a guy in school, you will be hanging with the other OALC guys. You won't be forming friendship through sports by playing on the football team, where so many life-long friendships are formed. You will be out of it as far as knowing about all the latest video games. You won't be dating any worldly girls who will be wanting to go to dances and movies. After you graduate you will be very lucky if there is the money, or family support, to send you to college. There are some very successful construction businesses owned by OALC members, you will be able to go to work for one of them. Then it's time to get married, and have a bunch of kids, and there you are for life. The kicker here guys is that living like this isn't going to get you to heaven. You could have played football, gotten an education, traveled to New Zealand, married anyone you wanted, had two kids, taken them to Disney movies, and still be a Christian man on his way to Heaven. Not in the eyes of the OALC, but rather in the eyes of God, where it counts. I wonder if the Finn "poys" have as much need for each other as the girls do? The hunting trips and other guy stuff is probably so important because they too have given up an awful lot to be a part of this religion. God bless you young men--I don't think you are getting a real good shot at life either.

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  29. Very well said! I'm sure there are guys who are just as confused as s, and those who feel just as trapped.

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  30. I am very interested in the great
    influence SOCIAL CAPITAL has on
    church membership. It might in
    most cases even override serious
    doubts about doctrine. In my case
    it did for many years.

    I am a former 1AP raised in same.

    This influence had great deal
    to do with being one of the
    "boys" but also made first inter-
    action with girls possible.

    We had ball games,bonfires,hot
    dogs,singing etc. every Sat.
    night. In the winter skating and
    skiing with the group. It made
    for a great social life!
    e
    However,church attendence became
    more of means of acceptance than
    belief to maintain this social
    life.

    Finally the insult to my
    intellect such as 0.01% to be
    saved, and preacher infallibill-
    ity became too much and I left.

    I often wonder how unique my
    experience has been. There
    might be an astonishingly high %
    percentage sitting in the pews
    every Sunday primarily to main-
    tain Social Capital!

    o

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  31. I've come to the same conclusion as the anonymous 1AP poster above. I think the social aspect plays a very important role for many Laestadians. Many might have serious doubts about what they hear in the sermons, or even disagree strongly, but still the social bonds make it impossible for them to start seeking elsewhere. If you've been taught not to socialize with anyone outside of your religious community and have lived all your life within that community, you risk losing all your social relationships if you quit. So, most of them probably opt to stay and suffer. However, there is one interesting group of people at least in the Finnish OALC equivalent, the ones that normally don't come to the Sunday meetings and might also be in total disagreement with many typical Laestadian beliefs, but they still come to the big meetings to meet friends and surprisingly often also consider themselves Laestadians. I think that group is a lot smaller in America because the boundaries between the "insiders" and the "outsiders" seem to be more definite there.

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  32. The two previous posts have brought up some valuable points. I have been out of that religion for many years, but when I am with my relatives at some function, I get a "safe" feeling sometimes. These people look like me, sound like me, and understand the Finnish nature. It has nothing to do with their religion, but is there IN SPITE of their faith.

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  33. I think I know what you mean by that "safe" feeling. I think it's got to do with Laestadianism being also a social group. Well, in fact I think it could even be called almost an "ethnic" group just like the Jews are both a religious and an ethnic group.

    I think the reason for that "safe" feeling is that when you are with Laestadians you are absolutely sure about the social code in that group because you grew up with them. As for me, I only seldom go to the Laestadian meetings any more and I don't share many of their beliefs, but still I feel more relaxed with Laestadians than any other people, believers or non-believers. It is easier to predict the thoughts and reactions of Laestadians because I share the same sociocultural background.

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  34. Are my memories real or am I making them up? Did my own grandfather molest me or am I trying to get attention? God help me.

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  35. Whether your memories are real or just seem real, they have meaning and only you can discover what it is and what it will be, for the remainder of your life. Find a good therapist and start the journey.

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  36. Yes, as Free said, find a safe place (therapist) to sort it all out. Know that there is light at the end of the tunnel regardless (if he did it or not). There can be laughter and joy on the other side of the sorting out process.

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  37. How silly to stereotype the men of OALC according to the region. Speaking straight from north county Washington, I can assure you that there are plenty of devoted and doting Dads right here in the OALC. I see it Sunday after Sunday in and out of the building, and especially in the homes.
    And how absurd to assume that these poor men are plunged into a life of nothing but work, responsibility, and handfuls of children through no choice of their own. How blessed is the man who daily dies to himself and fills his quiver with the gifts from the Lord. Nothing that the world could offer could bring a man such joy. AND get this, I am a MOM to EIGHT, who is blessed enough to spend her days serving Christ through daily dying to self and serving my children and husband. I praise God for this life. I am so thankful to not have bought into the lies of the Devil that the world has anything better to offer us. And before too many feathers get ruffled neither my husband nor I were born into the OALC, we went searching on our own after we already had our 8 children~ so can't blame it on brainwashing or whatever else it is that you accuse the church of....

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