"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Intelligent Design, redux

Monday, August 10, 2009

Intelligent Design, redux

I'm creating a new thread to discuss evolution, ID etc. Out of respect for those readers of this site who do not wish to discuss this topic, please post all comments on this issue to this thread, leaving the other topics open for other issues.

See also: Intelligent Design, Laestadian Style

Expelled Movie Official Site

Ben Stein's Expelled: No Integrity Displayed

Six Things in Expelled that Ben Stein Doesn't Want You to Know

Norah asked some questions on a previous thread, which I'll re-post here:

The questions I have are these:

-are there cases where educators, scientists, and reporters have been silenced in some way simply by acknowledging that there are other theories besides evolution.

-if so, how does this impact not just science, but also politics, ethics, philosophy, theology, and education.

-is there a connection between evolution, atheism, and human rights.

-if 'inalienable rights endowed by our Creator' are not accepted as true or valid, how does that affect public policy.

-what have historically been the steps that led to suppression of human rights.

-what can we learn from history.


I invite your responses, and I'll post mine as well.

10 comments:

  1. I'll take a stab at these questions: :-)

    are there cases where educators, scientists, and reporters have been silenced in some way simply by acknowledging that there are other theories besides evolution

    There are no scientific theories that have been raised as alternatives to evolution. If such a new theory was raised and met methodolical and and peer review standards, it would represent the biggest paradigm shift since Einstein, and fame, fortune, and the Nobel Prize would be in it for the discoverer of such a theory. Eventually, the new theory would become the standard and make it into high school science textbooks. However such textbooks necessarily lag, as textbooks don't represent cutting edge new research, but the scientific consensus.

    if so, how does this impact not just science, but also politics, ethics, philosophy, theology, and education.

    Paradigm shifts have far-reaching political and social consequences, which are often not predictable in advance.

    is there a connection between evolution, atheism, and human rights.

    No, there is no inherent connection, although people can and will make connections, some of which will be quite compelling. It is up to people of faith to draw responsible, credible connections that further compassion and good morals.

    if 'inalienable rights endowed by our Creator' are not accepted as true or valid, how does that affect public policy.

    See my previous response. Evolution need not erode our respect for God and God-given rights, and it's the responsbility of the faith community to make sure it does not.

    what have historically been the steps that led to suppression of human rights.

    History doesn't give us a single answer to this question. Totalitarian regimes existed before Darwin, and will exist long after Darwin.

    what can we learn from history.

    We can learn many things from history, especially the difficulty in applying something from one period of history to another. Respect for the peoples and cultures of the past includes acknowledging how different they are from us, as well as our shared humanity.

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  2. Good point, Norah. I'm going to give this some thought before responding.

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  3. Re-posting Norah's comment from another thread here:

    Norah said...
    Thanks for taking a stab at those questions, Tomte :-). I am open to all of those thoughts. One thing that comes to mind though, is this: suppose we are now in the midst of a paradigm shift, or actually somewhat beyond that..from a Christian to a post-Christian society, much like Europe has been for some time. As you said "Paradigm shifts have far-reaching political and social consequences, which are often not predictable in advance". And my thought is that we don't know what this shift holds for us in the future. Or do we.

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  4. Cross-posting some more comments from the other thread:

    LaestadianInfo said...
    "post-Christian society, much like Europe has been for some time."

    Around 80% percent of Finns are members in the Evangelical Lutheran Church. Here live 5 million people. Of these at least 1 million is practicing Christians to some degree. Almost all are baptized.

    The evolution theory has been taught as the scientific explanation for life since it got to the textbooks. I don’t think the Finnish society is a post Christian society.

    Sweden may be, but not Finland.

    Mon Aug 10, 08:30:00 AM PDT
    Norah said...
    I stand corrected, L Info. From what I understand, membership is not the same as regular attendance. For example, in Germany, membership in a church might be 2,000 people..but attendance can be just 10-12 people. At least that's how it was a few years ago. Would you say regular attendance is high in Finland, along with membership? (I should probably be posting this on the new thread).

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  5. If you cannot trust the scripture in matters of history, how can you trust it in matters of faith and theology?

    Jesus understood the old testament as history. Spoken by God, wrtitten through the hands of men. Matt. 5:18, Luke 16:17, Matt. 19:4-5; 22:31,32,43- Mark 12;26, Luke 20:37

    Jesus regarded Adam, Eve and Noah as historical people. either Jesus was mistaken, in which case he does not deserve our worship-or the skeptics and their allies are wrong.

    Hebrew Scholars believe Genesis is history:

    * DR. Ting Wang, Stanford Unv.

    *Dr. Andrew Steinmann, concordia Unv. Illinois

    *Dr. Robert McCabe, Detroit Baptist Theological Seminary

    (Just a few points taken from "15 reasons to take Genesis as History.")

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  6. Well, there is NO WAY Noah flood can be a real historical event as described in the Bible. If you faith depends on that, I suggest you start to read the Christian recover forums.

    But it doesn’t have to be that way. Here is how a Christian scientist I already has cited, combines his fundamentalist beliefs with researching evolution:

    As a fundamentalist, evangelical Christian, I naturally believe the literal truth of the Scriptural statement, "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." In that sense I proudly proclaim myself to be a creationist. As an experimental scientist with a Masters degree in biochemistry and over ten years experience as a protein chemist, enzymologist and immunologist, I naturally acccept the evidence that establishes the fact of evolution as a natural phenomenon and which establishes natural selection as the main force behind microevolution and an important force behind so-called "macroevolution". In that sense I proudly proclaim myself to be an evolutionist.

    These proclamations are not mutually exclusive for two simple reasons. The first is that the Bible was meant to be a book of faith, not one of science. I am not a literalist; that is, I do not believe that every word of the Bible was written by God Himself. Rather I believe it was written by men who were inspired by God to present a spiritual message and who embellished that message with historical and poetic detail. They wrote what they believed was true, but since they were men of faith writing what essentially was a bare-bones spiritual message, they used mythology, folklore and current events to fill out the message, to strengthen it and to help interpret it. As such, like Galileo I am not surprised that the Bible is scientifically inaccurate, because I look to the Bible for spiritual truths that only God can reveal, not for scientific truths that are best determined by the direct observation of nature.

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  7. P.S., I looked up the verses you cited, and Jesus is not talking about the historicity of the Bible in those passages. In some of the passages he is talking about the resurrection of the dead, and in the others he's talking about the Law. Both are theological issues, not historical ones. Everyone in this conversation thus far (although certainly not everyone reading this blog, or the population in general) agrees that the Bible is inspired and speaks with authority on matters of theology.

    I can see where one might infer historicity based on the way Jesus is talking about the figures involved. On the other hand I, who do not believe that all the Bible characters are historical, also feel comfortable talking about Bible characters the way the Jesus does, so perhaps the inference is not conclusive.

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  8. Norah said,

    suppose we are now in the midst of a paradigm shift, or actually somewhat beyond that..from a Christian to a post-Christian society, much like Europe has been for some time. As you said "Paradigm shifts have far-reaching political and social consequences, which are often not predictable in advance." And my thought is that we don't know what this shift holds for us in the future.

    The shift from a Christian to post-Christian society is something that is currently being discussed in the Episcopal Church. I've read some interesting articles about how our ideas on how to do ministry, church, mission, evangelism, need to change in light of the changing paradigm.

    While change is difficult, I'm optimistic long-term that the church will survive and thrive. The church has already survived 20 centuries, and it has thrived and blossomed into new expressions. Evolution really holds no threat to the church. Some segments of Christianity have engaged with the ideas, others have largely ignored them. Some quarters are very hostile, while others have integrated the ideas. So from a purely pragmatic standpoint the church is well positioned no matter what happens with science. ;-)

    That doesn't stop us all from having very strong viewpoints in the meantime, however. ;-)

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  9. Drat, life is getting in the way here at my house. :-) But just wanted to say I agree Tomte, the church will survive.. however (and there's always a 'however' isn't there lol).. the church (and the world) has had to endure some pretty extreme suffering when there is no respect for human life. And that will have to do it for today.... :-)

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  10. I thought I had alot to say but am to tired to say it. Looong day.

    I probably could sum it all up with this. My faith is in God, His Living word- not scientists (man) who dare presume to be more knowledgable then the creator of heaven and earth, and all within.

    Amen and good night.

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