"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: OALC Compared to Wal-Mart

Monday, April 20, 2009

OALC Compared to Wal-Mart

From The Daily News Online:

WOODLAND — A church under construction along Dike Road will be neighbors with a new Wal-Mart Superstore, and besides locations it will share one other thing with the retail giant. Like Wal-Mart, the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church is expanding rapidly.

The new 36,000-square-foot sanctuary is the congregation’s third location, adding to churches it already has in Brush Prairie and Battle Ground in north Clark County. The new church will hold up to 1,200 people, making it one of Cowlitz County’s largest houses of prayer.

“Many of the young families ... have been drifting north toward Woodland because of lower property and home values” than Clark County, David Halme, a Battle Ground resident and church trustee, said in a phone interview Wednesday.

The church has been planned for about five years. It’s taken time to raise money for construction, obtain permits and get the 10-acre site annexed into the city, Halme said.

In the past month, a contractor has stacked dirt on the site to compact the ground and make it more stable. The site must settle, and the congregation still is raising money, so construction of the building itself may not start until next year and will take a year to complete. Congregation members will donate most of the labor and materials, cutting the expected $9.5 million costs in half, Halme said.

“It’s wonderful we have the opportunity to do that,” he said.

When the church built its Battle Ground sanctuary, about “99 percent of the work was done by the congregation,” he said.

Halme said the church purchased its land before Wal-Mart announced plans to build nearby, and the church doesn’t mind the close proximity to the box store. Wal-Mart is expected to start building its store in the next couple of months.

Church officials also welcome the opportunity to potentially neighbor a new Woodland High School. The church owns land next to 40-acres owned by the school district to someday house a new school. The school property sits between the church and Wal-Mart property.


  1. shed for you......says

    It warms the heart to hear they are finally breaking ground out on the west coast. The Christianity is sure strong in that locality and it great to see the expansion. Many blessings to those helping to build this church.

  2. EX FALC Says,

    I agree Christianity is strong but its not just strong where an OALC church is. Its strong anywhere you open your heart and find love for other people, not just people in your family, in your community, or in your church. I think that is one of the greatest lessons Jesus taught us, but its one of those things that is easy to talk about, but hard to put into action.

    Shed for you, I would be interested in your response to my comment I posted on the "Do not do unto them blog. How would a church like yours welcome someone in that is leaving a mormon fundamentalist group? Just so you know, my husband grew up truely believing he was living in "living christianity". They believe they are gods chosen people. Many of them also believe that the U.S. will collapse and everyone living in this country will die. Yes, that would include OALC members. So, why is your faith right and his wrong? Your prophet is LLL, their prophet is Joseph Smith. Each of them taught different things so which prophet should I follow and why? I want to hear what you think, not what the preacher thinks, and no recycled religious talk. Individuals in my husband's family have encouraged us to go to the mormon church and take on their beliefs. Obviously its annoying to listen to and I have had enough of the religious rhetoric so if you get the hint, I want your opinions to be coming from you.

  3. EX FALC Says

    One more comment. I thought of a way the OALC can expand ever more rapidly. Imagine how much faster "the living christianty" would grow then. If each man has 3 wives and each wife has 15 kids, you might need to build more than one church. Imagine how big those sunday school classes will be and how many kids will be born into "living christianity". My husband has 30 brothers and sisters. My brother in law is from a family of 70. They're all building their kingdom of "true living christianity". No sarcasm here. I am just saying if the goal is to have big families and grow christianity, why waste your time? More wives = more kids = exponential church growth.

  4. pulla base asks: Does the OALC have Sunday School for kids?

  5. These American style megachurches will simply create yet more unhealthy communities where nobody knows anybody, social problems run rampant, and the weak are crushed underfoot of whatever the preachers think is important that day.

  6. The growth in the west coast OALC community is due to the large families. These Laestadian churches only grow from within, as they do virtually no outreach, which is contrary to biblical teaching.

    Strong christianity or is it strong indoctrination?

  7. EX-FALC Says - Are you talking about the OALC church that is being built on the west coast? If it fits 1200 people, thats a megachurch in my view. The church I goes to has about 100 members. But honestly, the size of the church is not what matters. Their are thousands of kids starving accross the world. I think their are better things to complain about than big churches. What would you rather? A big strip club or a big church? I would be happy to see a big megachurch come up near my house, even if I didn't attend it. Especially in a bad economy, lets get people back to work.

    Now, back to the subject of me and my husband's search for a church...We've walked into churches were we saw smiles on the faces of the people and they welcomed us with open arms. These are the churches we choose to associate with and are not churches that crush people, but rather lift them up. The size of the church has never mattered. You can just see joy and happiness on the faces on the people. I tend to stay away from the churches that have the opposite reaction of what I just stated. I attended the OALC a few years ago. Of course I did not attend with my husband - I don't want to traumatize him anymore. I attended 2 services, just to "check it out". Being raised in the FALC, I was curious to see what the differences were. I did not feel welcome there. I felt like I was intruding into someone's secret club. I was going to a secret club meeting but didn't wear the right wardrobe, LOL. Lets just say I stuck out like a sore thumb and I do not like being the center of attention. Unlike the last poster, I am not generalizing and grouping everyone into one category. I am sure their are those that feel the people are welcoming there. I didn't feel welcome. I don't appreciate 200 kids staring at me because I do something harmless like getting my ears pierced. I am simply speaking from my experience. SO now the question is...am I a real person in your eyes since I do not attend the OALC and abide by the OALC secret club code of conduct? Do you accept my opinion that I do not feel welcome there? Or do you think someone is wrong with me because the OALC is the perfect church and it's right for everyone in this world? Or am I just a worldly going to hell because I do not agree with you?

    If you do think I am worldly and going to hell, let me know, but don't sugarcoat it with religious rhetoric.

    Can an OALC member accept that their are christians in other churches?

    And come up with an example of a "weak" person that was crushed underfoot of whatever the preachers think is important on a specific day. Tell me one person that hasn't had a tough trial in their life to deal with. How can you be crushed underfoot of whatever the preacher says? Maybe the individual was putting their trust in the preacher and not in god and thats what caused the problem.

    Also, I know OALC'ers and many other LLL followers are reading my posts. I'm still waiting for a good comeback not filled with recycled religious nonsense. Thanks

  8. "Strong christianity or is it strong indoctrination?"

    Neither, just inbreeding.

  9. OALC is a pedophile's dream and home to many due their extreme adherence to "forgive and forget". Pederasts can go "offending the little ones" as long as they like as long as they say their sorry.

    As part of their Perfect Package for Pedophiles they strongly preach and advise against going to the authorities because "the law of the land is not forgiving".

    I don't think we can forget our unfortunate associate whose daughter was molested and was hounded out of the church for pursuing said crime. I see this website has taken over her domain and discarded her remembrance.

  10. EX-FALC says...

    That is just sick. My husband's dad tried marrying a 15 year old girl in the name of religion last year. He lives in Mexico so he can get away with it. It just repulses me. Their are so many criminals that use religion to cover up their crimes. This is only the tip of the iceberg of what has gone on.

    I could never attend a church like the one my husband grew up in or the FALC, or the OALC, or any likeminded church. I wouldn't be able to let myself to believe the lies and to talk myself into believing I need to suffer for another person's pleasure.

    I am sure their are many victims out there, some more courageous and willing to report it and stand up against it. I say never stop searching for the truth, never stop fighting for justice for those who have been victimized.

  11. EX-FALC:

    I think the person who made the comment about the American-style megachurches was actually agreeing with you, not against you.

    Anonymous: I do believe the person you were refering to who went after a pedophile in the OALC was a dear friend of the blog owner, and her remembrance was NOT discarded, especially if you look in the past postings. I have been a follower of this blog for many years and her life touched me, too.

    --Stranger in a Strange Land

  12. "I see this website has taken over her domain and discarded her remembrance."

    The person you are talking about is indeed a dear friend. She forwarded her domain TO this website when she decided to discontinue her blog.

  13. Shed for you….says
    Ex-Falc : To answer your question we would welcome you with open arms to the OALC. Anyone is welcome to attend our services and don’t be intimidated if people look at you because that is just human nature when someone new comes to a church. The best thing to do would be to talk to a preacher once you’re up to it and explain anything that would be on your conscience. Any sin can be forgiven and washed away once you have knowledge of that sin and you are awakened and feel sorrow over it.
    Yes I agree that a church that holds over 1000 is a very big church but to say there is no outreach is ludicrous. We are taught to spread the word about our church and beliefs to everyone we come in to contact with. I have spoken with friends of mine about our religion and actually this led to one of them joining our church.
    I expect to read negative posts on this site about my church and the way I believe but it is a site for people to come on and vent. Don’t let these negative comments keep you and your husband away from coming to our church. Come see for yourself…

  14. Ex-FALC says

    Well, the polygamous cult welcomed us with open arms. Their prophet is Joseph Smith. Your prophet is LLL. Hmm...which one should I follow? Let me think...neither. Honestly the OALC gives me a bad feeling. The same feeling I got when I was invited to a service at the church @ the polygamous colony. I was interested in attending, just to see what it was like, but honestly, I can't attend a church when I know it's teachings encourage people to suffer for their faith. I feel like if I were to attend, it would encourage the preachers because people are actually coming to listen to them so their form of faith must be "right". Thats also the reason why I won't attend the OALC. I refuse to support an unhealthy church.

  15. Ex-Falc-

    I am curious as to the polygomous cult you refer to in mexico... I have read several books on a group of radical LDS down there. How are you connected? or are you?

    -Christian by no other name

  16. Google "Lebaron cult". LeBaron is also my last name, so thats gives away who I am to some of the people reading this blog. My last name is LeBaron. My husband's grandfather is Alma, and Alma's brother is Ervil, the one that did all of the killings.

  17. Ex falc says (sorry, I did not put that on my last post) Actually, I should have said Ervil plotted the killings but he did not do the killings himself. Their is so much information on this family, books, even a movie. My husband grew up in Colonia LeBaron in Mexico, where the main church group was. His mom and dad still live down there. I went down there in August of 2007 but have not been down there since. Those who have been following the news know their is also a drug war in Mexico so now I have two reasons to not want to go down there. The other reason being I can't stand being around the polygamists.

  18. Ex-falc says - I also realized I said "lebaron is my last twice in my first comment. I should have re-read my comment before I posted but it early in the morning and I am still waking up.

  19. Shed for you-

    I know you all feel like you are a very welcoming bunch, but to an outsider, it is not welcoming at all. Sure, there are people who come up, are very polite, and welcome you. But there are also alot who stare, and then there's the secret handshake/greeting of "God's Peace", which I'm sure, would make anybody feel more like an outsider. In my experiance, you are even less welcoming to a "dropout" than just a plain "wordly". There are always the ones who feel the need to come and give you a lecture like you haven't been taught that all your life. To that I say : "Yes, I know what you teach!! If I believed it, then I wouldn't have left!" We hear your whispers, and see your stares. Your children call out things like "unbeliever, unbeliever", and tell us that we are going to hell. Do you even know what they are doing outside? I'm am sorry for bunching "you" all into a group, I'm sure there are alot of nice, truely welcoming laestadians, but I have not experianced that. And I know you feel welcoming, and honestly, I don't know if you'll ever realize how truly unwelcoming your churches feel.

  20. Lllreader to Exfalc: I really had never heard of the LaBaron group, so thanks for sharing--Good Grief! That was one crazy situation. With the passage of time, I imagine the only ones that would still be around, having known about the killings, would be pretty messed up mentally. There are some mighty strange folks in this world--so glad your hubby got out of there!

  21. I've been fascinated by the similarity of the different Laestadian factions and the Mormon splinter groups ever since I heard about them (a few years ago, before that I only knew about the mainstream Mormon church). I think learning about those groups could possibly serve as an eye opener for Laestadians, almost like looking at your own church from outside, so keep on telling Ex-Falc! :)

  22. Lllreader agrees with Hibernatus: I was struck by the similarity in language, when I read the Jessup book which I think started this discussion. I think it was called Escaped. I got it from the library and the parallel is remarkable. Having more then one wife is not practiced in the OALC of course-- BUT--what if the preachers told you you had to do it?

  23. ex-falc says...

    I agree with both of you. Thank you for the comments. When I spent some time around the cult members, it was just incredible to see the similarities. Their are books written about the LeBaron group. One is "Shattered Dreams" by Irene Spencer. It details the suffering this woman went through living polygamy. I know many of her grandkids since they are second cousins to my husband. She has another book coming out documenting how Ervil went on his killing rampage. Her first book was a New York Times bestseller. I predict this one might be as well. She is very gifted writer.

    Another book about the family is "My Favorite Wife" by Susan Ray Schmidt".

    Also, I should note that no current OALC members are answering my postings about my experiences with my in-laws involved in this cult, but I know you are reading it. I hope these posts are making all of you think, and if you are thinking so much you are unable to think about the right words to post, thats fine! Knowledge is power and I am just happy to know you are thinking about what is going on here. I hope you take a good look at your religion and open your eyes to the hurt and suffering the OALC and other churches have caused. The FALC caused a lot of hurt onto me and my family. That suffering is real to the thousands of people who have been a part of these spiritually abusive churches.

    So yeah I would also have to ask the OALC members...would you live polygamy if your minister said you should? What if you discover a long lost LLL writing that exposes he lived polygamy or he agreed with polygamy? LOL :)

  24. I thought this was about the oalc and walmart?

  25. This is much more interesting than Walmart.

  26. Ex falc says...

    My guess is Anonymous 2:42 is an OALC member trying to divert the discussion to something else. I am really waiting her for an OALC member to come forward and give your views on this. You've read my opinions. I would like to hear what you think. I am more open minded than you think. I have gone through much of the relgious material put forth by Joseph Smith and others, including the prophet of my husband's cult, Joel LeBaron. For some time I actually almost started believing in it because it is very convincing and on paper, it sounds right. I could see why the women wanted to live polygamy. They truly believe they are doing this for god. They believe the suffering in this life is okay because they will be glorified princesses in heaven or something like that. The bigger family, the better, because the kingdom in heaven will be better so thats why having kids is so important because it helps to build the celestial kingdom.

    I don't see the OALC members as any different, you know, they have also convinced themselves they need to suffer in this world because otherwise heaven will lock them out.

  27. shed for you....says

    Lies, lies and more lies about the OALC. It amazes me to think how ex-falc can just write and think on a whim about our beliefs and suddenly it becomes gospel. To answer your question on polygamy No we would not follow this because it was Adam and Eve in the bible not Adam plus Eve plus 2. Please people come to our church and see for yourself what we are about instead of listening to ex-falc; who obviously had a bad experience and is now bitter.

  28. The bitterness about our personal faith is frightening. Why someone would want to create a film about God's Kingdom leaves me speechless and with a feeling of sadness for those who have not yet received the grace of repentence. I pray for each of you that one day God would open the doors for you so that you could one day rest in eternal life in Heaven. I have not ever felt oppressed by my faith because it has uplifted me and helped me see the miracles, joys, happiness and most importantly, forgiveness. God is a loving God and cares for each one of us. For you that have given up your faith, God's word says it is caused because of sin and disobedience. But you know, God does not forget you who have given up. In your conscience God still exists. Everyone's faith needs care. The joy of having faith is that I can put all of my sins away and as someone else has mentioned "sleep peacefully at night," knowing that if I die today, I pray I'll die a beleiver. True repentence is when the gospel of the forgiveness of sins is preached and my sins are washed away forever. As I leave with my comments behind, I'll say an extra pray for you that God would someday open the gates for each one of you.

    Amen!! OALCer

  29. Shed for you, it would be fully logical to claim that polygamy is biblical. You've probably heard about Jacob, David, Solomon and their wives? It wasn't like that in the beginning, but the fact is that polygamy existed among God's people in Old Testament times. For example following arguments could be used to support polygamy if it was practiced in the OALC:
    -Although God created only one Adam and only one Eve, God also gave them only vegetables to eat. Only later God allowed to eat also meat, and in a similar way, also polygamy was introduced later.
    -Divorce and remarriage can be seen as serial polygamy (some Christian groups in fact consider remarriage serial polygamy assuming that marriage can never be dissolved unless one of the spouses dies), so if we are allowing serial polygamy, why can't we allow also simultaneous polygamy?

    Of course, I'm not saying that OALC should adopt polygamy, but I'm just trying to illustrate that arguments could be found also for that purpose.

  30. I've been watching this post for awhile, and I see that there is no point in trying to ask the laestadians any questions. It's always the same. I think ex-falc is asking "what is YOUR opinion", not what is your chuches opinion. We grew up in your churches, we know your churches opinion! What is YOUR opinion?

    And do you HONESTLY believe that you are the only religion that is going to Heaven? Compared to the worlds population, there are a tiny handful of laestadians, do you think that God put the rest of us here to send us all to hell? I don't! In the bible about Judgement it says something like : God will be the final Judge. (not exact words..), so what gives laestadians the power to know who is going to be saved, and who is not? Or any religion for that matter? Anyways, there's probably no point in trying to tell you anything since your mind is only open to Laestadian teachings, and nothing else.

    Ex-falc, I looked up the Lebaron family, and I was quite amazed! I knew that your husband was from a morman polygamist cult, but had NO idea it was that extreme! I don't blame him for not trusting in religion- I wouldn't either in that situation. I have my own trust issues with religion after coming from the LLC, but I cannot imagine what it would be like for him. He sounds like he's doing great though, I am happy for you both! I also saw the similarities between the morman cults, and the laestadian churches. Oprah had a show on it, and the things the escaped woman were saying sounded similar to what I would say about the LLC. (not quite as extreme, though) It is quite amazing, isn't it? No wonder us "ex's" are so good at relating to people eh?

  31. Ex-FALC says...

    I need to say this to shed for you. I am still waiting for your honest opinion to why you attend a church that encourages you to suffer when Jesus already did. My husband suffered a lot. More than you can imagine and you know what? I have the right to be bitter because his suffering makes my heart suffer too because of what he went through. No child should grow up like that. I fight many times against his family members because I am tired of the lies based on a twisted religion.

    Anyway, I was going to let you know I had a revelation last week from LLL that I am the next prophet to lead the OALC. This church is ready for a woman preacher. I can tell you the new church will not encourage women to suffer. Women will be leading this group. We're going to build the compound in Colonia LeBaron. We need to keep away from the worldlies as much as possible. Are all of you coming with? Now I will read the next few comments...one at a time.

  32. Ex falc says...

    Anonymous 8:11, or OALC'er...

    my faith does not exist in a church building, it exists in my heart. My faith is a part of me, not shown in the way I dress, bragging about not drinking, watching TV, or listening to the radio. I decided that I wanted my faith to be a part of my life. I am not a Sunday morning christian that attends a church but starts judging once I leave the building. Over the last few years, I started listening to christian music on my way to work. I started looking for ways I could contribute positively to this world. I want to be an advocate for my husband's family. I want to be there for the women who decide to leave. I want to be there for the OALC'er, any other related people who decided to leave. I want to be a model citizen and give back to the community in any way I can. Not just give back to my church or my family. And its not for my glory, it is for god.

    It has taken incredible faith to stand up to this family. This is a David vs. Goliath type of struggle that you cannot even try to comprehend. Trying to love and care for my father in law is so tough and so hard. Every day I pray for patience to deal with it.

    OALC'ers - Don't you think its right to help these people get out of there?

  33. Ex FALC says to YM

    Yeah, me and my husband have made progress. We have been through very tough times. But I live in the truth and I tell the truth. Our marriage is not perfect even now. We have things we argue about, mostly about his family. I want him to spend less time around them because I just can't handle being around some of them.

    So now does everyone believe this is real? It's so great for me to get some of this off my chest. I believe I am in the family for a reason. God works in mysterious ways. The OALC'ers would call me an evil worker. I have no fear of facing any OALC'er, none of the LeBarons, the only one's opinion that matters in GOD. I am just cutting through all of the traditions, cutting throughe the BS religious rhetoric and calling this out as I see it. A lie.

  34. Ex FALC says...

    Um yeah...still waiting for a good comeback to my comments. Silence in my view means people agree with me. I can handle what anyone throws accross the table and will take the time to respond back with my opinions. I have seen one of the worse cults in North America first hand so I know how to deal with religious fanatics and I know how to deal with people who teach their children to hate "the world" and to believe the United States and everyone in this country will die. It took me a lot of time to come to terms with it. But you know, it is what it is.

    Although I am the next prophet that that been called by god to end the suffering people are going through in these churches, I will still respect your opinions if you have any opinions besides what the preachers have told you. As long as you have your own principles that you live by and you feel you are living the truth, and you are not teaching your kids to hate, and you can back yourself up without the help of what your preachers told you, I can respect that. I have to stand up against cult members in my husband's family all the time and I have no preacher to back me up. I have my faith in god and that faith alone can stand up to all of this. I don't need a church building to believe what I believe. I simply stand for what I believe and don't follow other people.

    Have a nice day everyone!

  35. Ex-falc also says

    I wanted to also say that many of you are trying to live free as former laestadians. I should start my own blog called "learning to live free from a cult". You know how crazy that we both come from some strange situations. How incredible that our lives would be put together. I try to explain my story here, but you know, what god does in people's lives is just incredible.

    Its a tough world out there. Always stand up for what you believe in and never give up hope for change. I will always hope that the people who hurt my parents in the FALC will come to terms with what they did before they face god. I'll never stop hoping for that. Over time, I am working to move on, to forgive. That is the only way I can live in peace. Its a long, tough process.

  36. I have not been out on the blogs for awhile, so...

    I am a little confused by this comment, "I don't think we can forget our unfortunate associate whose daughter was molested and was hounded out of the church for pursuing said crime. I see this website has taken over her domain and discarded her remembrance."
    My website was taken down of my own volition. I am not sure if the above reader continues to be confused as to the ownership of the oldapostoliclutheran.com domain. All of the material still exists, it is just not public domain at the moment. I forwarded the reader to this blog so the conversation can continue as it should and must.

    I agree with you that the OALC is a beautiful place to be a pedophile. As the "unfortunate associate," however, I still exist. I was not hounded out of the church for pursuing said crime... I left of my own free will, and it is one of the most glorious decisions I have ever made. The mind control gets smaller every day.

    And free has not swallowed up my presence; my online voice is just a tiny bit quieter at the moment. In person, I am just as loud as ever, much to the chagrin of my friends and family.

    Blessings, as always. And ex-FALC-- what an amazing story you carry. Thanks for honoring us by sharing it here.

  37. shed for you says...obviously people like ex-falc have a lot more time on their hands to write on here. Silence for me means I am busy; plus I seem to be the only current OALC person on here talking and I am supposed to answer all these questions??? Yikes

    Ex-Falc- I am not sure how you think that our church makes people suffer to believe. Jesus already paid the price for our sins but we believe one must have sorrow over sin and then ask forgiveness for it. It’s simple for us because Jesus already died for our sins.

    Hib-Yes you are right about the many wives, but we hold to adam and eve being the right way. The same could be said for concubines in the bible, many had them like Soloman (300) so then I guess it should be okay to do this? No

    Aren’t you Catholic Hib? If so then do Catholics believe in polygamy and concubines then?

    YM-No we are not God he is the Final Judge..we are just trying to warn you……Although the disciples of Jesus now have the right to judge, in accordance with the words of the Saviour: “Ye shall sit on thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel” [Luke 22:30], they do not condemn anyone to hell, as do pagans, who say in anger and from an evil heart, “Go to hell!” And even if, according to Paul’s words also, “he that is spiritual judgeth all things” [I Corinthians 2:15],

    Christians have the right to judge, they do not condemn anyone to hell, but instead they warn and urge impenitent souls not to go to hell as they lead their ungodly lives.

    If one impenitent person tells another, “Go to hell!” the other one does not become very angry, but if a Christian tells an impenitent person, “Do not go to hell,” the impenitent person becomes angry and asks, “Are you judging me? Are you God?” He becomes angry because a Christian wants to warn him not to go headlong into hell.

    Until later……

  38. Ex FALC,

    I was the annonymous that asked wich cult you were refering to. Quite awhile before the whole yearning for zion debacle, I lived in the same town as the author of His Favorite wife. It was featured in the local paper. I bought it and couldn't put it down. More recently, there was a paragraph in readers digest about the LeBaron cult. And about three months ago I heard a radio clip from America's most wanted telling about the killings and how they are still looking for some of those connected. I bought three more of His favorite wife and they have been passed around to MANY people.

    I am in the middle of reading Shattered Dreams. I believe, except for the polygomy, there are many similarities in them and the OALC and the ALC in which I was raised. I find it facinating in alot of ways...It was pounded into our heads that we were THE only church. The thing is, no where in the scripture does it mention the Apostlic Lutheran Church. Old or "new." Or Luther, or Lastadious. Or Joseph Smith or the LeBaron clan. How can so many claim to be "The chosen?"

    I would love to visit with you more via email or phone. Can we arrange it?

    Hi Helena! I am confused as to whether that post was in support of you or not. I know you left the church of your own free will...hounded out no. Labeled a troublemaker for addressing the issue? yes. Forgive and forget is a way to cover up sin. Way to many situations in the church have been ignored and covered up because someone "asked forgiveness." Some of them illegal. (obviously)

  39. Ex-FALC says

    Shed for you...

    You know, it was time for me to tell my story. Look back - I have never posted as much as I have until the last week or so. I needed to tell my story. I need to tell people the truth about what kind of church the FALC really is. Toxic. What has done to my parents and what being around this polygamous cult has taught me has made me who I am today.

    I needed to get this out. I needed to let people know how toxic these churches are and how the destroy people's lives. I know that many minds are finally awakening.

    Christians have the right to judge? No, they don't. I've had plenty of people judge me from that polygamous colony because I refuse to accept their belief system. Judging is hate and a way to avoid having to deal with the truth.

    My husband is Alma's grandson. Alma is a brother to Verlan just to show where my husband fits into the family tree to those who read the books. I have met Alma in real life when I was last in the town, August of 07. He is possibly the last of the brothers still alive.

  40. Ex-falc says

    To the poster who wants to get in contact with me...I am always willing to share my thoughts on the whole ordeal. I can't tell you firsthand how it was but I can tell you what I have seen. I've been in the family enough to hear some interesting things. Are you on facebook? I have a facebook account. That's the best way to get in contact with me because I am busy with work and kids. I don't want to give my full name out here yet, but I think the owner of the blog can give it to you, or you can look up Helena and find me because I am on her friends list.

    Oddly enough, a few weeks ago, I got an email from a woman of facebook...I didn't recognize her so I asked her who she was and she said her husband was Duane Chynoweth. That was the 4:00 murder in Houston where Duane and his daughter Jenny also died. She was 8 years old and died because she was a witness to the murder of her dad. This lady I am emailing was the mom to that girl. Unspeakable tragedy to have to go through. I am going to see where this conversation leads and see what she has done with her life in the last 20 years.

    And once again to the OALC'ers...

    It's an interesting world out there, isn't it? Are you starting to get interested in the lives of other people out of your church now? Could it be so?

  41. Shed for you, I wasn't saying that polygamy is the way to go, I was just trying to bring up some arguments the OALC could use to support polygamy if they wanted to introduce it. And if the preachers decided to introduce it and supported it with all those "biblical" arguments, I'm afraid many people would adopt it as a divine truth. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm just being difficult, but I was just trying to bring another perspective to the discussion (in fact, I sometimes even say things I don't mean just to keep the discussion going).

    As for my personal view on polygamy, I agree with you (and my church does). Adam and Eve should be seen as an ideal and the later cases of polygamy as deviations from the ideal. Polygamy is not the way to go. However, it is interesting that my church doesn't allow remarried men to become priests because according to the Bible, a priest should be "a man of one wife". So, does that mean that remarried men are men of several wives, then? It certainly sounds like that. I don't think it's common in my church to see remarriage as a sort of polygamy, but there are reasons why it could be considered as such. I think the most common view in my church is to regard divorce as an act in which something that has been joined together by God is broken by man (the Bible says man should not break what God has joined together but it doesn't say that it is impossible for man to break it). If it's possible for man to break what God has joined, then remarriage does not have to be considered polygamy but rather as a new beginning after acknowledging one's failure.

    (I'm not Catholic but Eastern Orthodox, it's very similar to the Catholic church in many ways, but there are also many differences)

  42. Ex-Falc says...

    Some bad news to report. One of my husband's cousins was just kidnapped in Mexico and he is being held for $1,000,000. Please send prayers to the family. We are hoping for a positive outcome. It reminds me to be thankful for living in a peaceful country with a government that protects. Follow this link to the full story...

  43. To Helena from LLLreader: So good to hear your "voice" again. I was just wondering about you the other day and hoping your journey was going well--and it is, since we know the Lord is traveling with you. God's Peace to you.

  44. Ex-falc, your family will be in my thoughts and prayers. It sure does make one thankful to live in a peaceful country when you hear about things like that!

    Shed for you-You act like you "know" that everyone except Laestadians are going to hell. How do you know this? Only GOD KNOWS who is going to be saved and who is not. There is NO way that any other person can see what's truly in the heart of another! Only God can! Why don't you get that?!!!? So if you cannot truly see what is in the heart of another person, what makes you feel like you have to warn them that they will not be saved? You do not know!!!
    Well, I'm not going to argue you about this anymore, we'll have to agree to disagree because it's pointless. You'll never see anything but laestadian point of view.

  45. Shed for you- Can you point to the scriptures that mention LLL or the OALC ? So far I haven't seen you all mentioned in the bible.

    Just like the Lebaron cult, you don't know for yourself. You listen exclusively to your elders. You better hope they are right. If you have read the good word, you would know it is given for all to understand. Even you.

    Does anyone besides me get how profound it is that LLL is quoted and revered- a man. a human. Instead of Christ?

    Ex Falc- Definatly praying for your family!

    Was in Salt lake city yesterday and saw a beer called Polgymous Porter- Tag line: why have just one?


  46. Ex-falc says...

    Yeah, it is a bad situation. The family needs all the prayers they can get. I know many don't care, but I hope you can see that no matter how you are raised, you are still a child of god. As a parent, I don't know how I would be able to maintain any sanity while going through something like this. I talked to the FBI and a CNN reporter yesterday. The FBI has no jurisdiction in Mexico, so Mexico needs to get its act together to help them out. The person who was kidnapped does have dual citizenship with the US and Mexico. The community is protesting against it and refusing so we'll see what happens. I would be interested to see if CNN, maybe Anderson Cooper takes the story. He has reported on cults and the drug war numerous times. They made a pretty big deal about the Somali pirate situation. I am wondering what they'll do here.

    It's a tough situation for the father of this boy, Joel Jr, who happens to be the son of the former prophet Joel, because he has over 40 kids, so he can't give up everything he owns to save 1 of his kids. He needs all of the money he has to keep the other ones fed with a roof over their heads.

    I guess the OALC summer services can't be held down there this summer like I was hoping. We can't risk any more kids getting kidnapped. It looks like the polygamists will have to head into the United States to seek shelter and I am sure the OALC, FALC and related churches will welcome them with open arms and take them just as they are.

  47. To ex-falc from LLLreader: I'll just echo the others with adding my prayers. Don't expect the the OALC members to get too concerned about the kidnapping, or worry too much about people outside of the church. Case in point--Katrina and the Twin Towers were not even mentioned in church after they happened. They are so conditioned to be self involved that the pain of others outside the church just doesn't matter. Sure not what Christ instructed.

  48. ex falc says...

    yeah, I know. People from the FALC act the same way. Thats why I think a field trip to the colony in mexico would be good. Eyes will open if they see the suffering with their own eyes and it isn't just a fairy tale story anymore.

  49. From a friend of mine:

    It was almost enough to make me stop believing
    Defacto segregations
    Emotional manipulations
    Personal salvations
    All the proclamations
    I had taken the bait
    Walked through the narrow gate
    Learned what to hate
    Was certain of my eternal fate
    I could spew the roman road, so proud so bold, part of the fold, believed what I was told
    I’m in - you’re out - no doubt what I’m talking about
    I know - I’m right - I’m the one walking in the light
    You lose - I win - come on I’ll point out your sin
    Prostituting every opportunity
    Wanting to be the supermajority
    Working to oppress homosexuality
    Don’t forget about being offended by profanity
    Let’s hang out in our Christian bubble
    Let’s try to stay out of trouble
    Don’t wander away from the holy huddle
    Forget about conversation - debate for domination - practice your presentation - and talk about eternal damnation
    Pick a verse to justify being chauvinistic,
    Deny it when they say you are legalistic,
    Preach a gospel that is individualistic,
    Forget that it seems a little imperialistic.
    Don’t question the authority, know what’s a priority, don’t worry about the minority,
    that’s our expository
    The Christianization - the dehumanization.
    The demonstration - the incorporation.
    Made me start to question
    What about the brotherly love - the justice that was spoken of -
    the one we were in awe of - the mercy they talked of
    Didn’t they get the memoranda that we were supposed to love with no agenda
    Didn’t they notice the lack of transformation - the absence of civil conversation
    Weren’t we supposed to be known by our fruits instead of our refutes
    Weren’t we supposed to make the world a better place full of love and hope and grace
    Where was the creativity - the spirit of generosity - the chance for serendipity -
    Thank God I broke free
    Cause it was almost enough to make me stop believing.

    From: http://gracerules.wordpress.com/

  50. HP3- While I agree with alot the post (from your friend) it does no good and is just as radical to swing to the other extreme. Right is still right and wrong still wrong. The problem being, most of us were taught man's idea of sin- not God's. We should still stand against scriptural sin.

  51. PS
    I was not trying to advocate any radical swing to any extreme... Thats fine if you dont agree :) I just wanted to share something for those here to think about :)

    I completely agree with everything you have to say; that Right is still Right and Wrong is still Wrong. And I like to base my absolute ideals of Right and Wrong off of what God has to say, and only what God has to say. I listen to others opinions and reasoning behind thier ideals, I can try to understand, and I know there are many variations of morals and ideals, but I dont make it an absolute or applicable to all, unless God says to.

    What I did get out of what I posted is exactly what you state: There is a lot of confusion in seperating man's ideals and God's ideals.

    I was taught man's ideas of sin -sometimes in line with God, most often not. It was quite a journey to recognize the difference between Man's word and God's word because I was taught they were one and the same, which was very discouraging and "ALMOST enough to make me stop believing." Discovering they were not one and the same was very freeing and what I thank God for.

    In light of the current thread discussing differences in church's "rules" and "rituals" and some getting quite defensive and so sure thier man-made beliefs are also God's, I thought it an appropriate time to share the above for individuals to ponder as they may.

    Have a nice day!

  52. HP3- Wow. I am glad to hear your thoughts. I did't quite get that from the rap/poem thing. (I like some rap) ..."working to oppress homosexuality" If you do believe according to scripture- it is in no uncertain terms wrong. Do we hate the sinner? No.Do we wax politically correct and say if it feels right do it? What about the pedophile? It feels right to them. No, I am not "homophobic" Just trying to take the word for what it says and not find loopholes in the name of "love"

    I to was taught by "man's rule/sin" women must have long hair, no jewlery, makeup, t.v., christmas trees, dancing and so on. I get that. I to was freed to see God's will versus man's. Some things are quite plain in scripture. And that's just to address ONE line in the rap/poem thing.

    Better said 0% religion- 100% Jesus.

  53. PS.
    Again, I agree with what I see as your personal views :)But it sounds to me like you are also taking it a step further and defending your views against the twisted interpretations of our society. I understand that, but I guess I dont make it a part of me and I dont address that unless Im conversing with someone who believes those twists, so I was surprised you brought them up now. It kind of made me feel like you thought I believed that way, instead of asking me how I believed. Like taking a general populus belief and making it individual to me when it wasnt true. Also, Im perfectly willing to admit Im probably really (even overly) sensitive to that as a carryover from my "religious" past. Just thought I would share :p

    It sounds like we are each basing our interpretation on our individual experiences, which is all each of us can do, really :p

    I do believe homosexuality to be a sin and I interpret the "working to suppress homosexuality" based on my experiences and scripture. Not the extreme perversion version of our society.

    Again, in my experiences, many people have committed sever atrocities in the name of Christ/Religion. There is a big difference in calling Sin as Sin, in a Christlike manner, or taking it upon ourselves to "suppress someone else's sin" by name calling and rock throwing (sometimes literally)

    For example, I would NEVER stand with a sign stating anything anti-gay outside of a gay establishment and yell scripture. Thats probably the quickest way to guarantee that person feels unwelcome, unloved and will be that much further from ever being able to seperate the person from the sin -in my opinion.

    Besides, suppressing is really just pushing down, covering up, to act the "right way" and "look good on the outside." Christ calls us, creates a longing deep in our souls, to undergo a complete change of heart, to be changed from the inside out, that our love for Him would be what motivates us to change and to reach out to others. Not have it be an "act of duty" that we do because we're "supposed to" or because "thats what Christians do" "because the bible says so."

    There is so very much confusion in our society surrounding sexuality. I dont want to get too much into such a personal subject, except to say that our sexuality is a wonderful, God given part of us and we were created that way from the beginning. Too many people dont understand how to celebrate that part of ourselves -according to scriptural guidelines. Its a gift to be enjoyed within appropriate context, not something to suppress.

    The bible is also pretty clear on stating the severe consequences for perverting this gift or using it outside of His guidelines, but that is God's role to act as the judge and dole out or let consquences happen. Not ours, not mine.

    I will continue to love the person, while calling thier sin a sin (no matter what the sin is -as explained in the BIBLE :) in such a way that will encourage in them a desire to follow Christ, and not try claim responsiblity for "suppressing thier sin" of homosexuality.

    Does that make more sense? That being tired of a "suppressing" mentality and wanting instead to live in love while still maintaining the biblical views of SIN. Im not exchanging one for the other, Im learning to let the two co-exist.

  54. Maybe instead of discusing the poem line by line (which I could do too) it would be best to address that my entire mindset when reading this can be summarized by stating that I see the poem as critisizing Man's rules, not God's.

    "Thank God I broke free" from all the man made rules, because THOSE were "almost enough to make me stop believing." Im reading with the mindset of having found God's rules and Im happy to live by them :)

  55. HP3-
    we agree for the most part. That poem however crosses over from man's rule to God's "Rule." If we can't distinguish that fact then I wonder if it's just a free for all?

  56. Im sorry but I dont understand your response? Where is the crossover? And in what way does it seem to disturb you and why?

    Ive explained that I use my bible to distinguish between God's rule and Man's rule, so I dont know what you mean by not being able to distinguish... and yes, sadly enough, there has been quite a "free for all" but Im not condoning that in any way... so again Im not really sure what your response means. If you care to explain Im interested in continuing the discussion.

  57. HP3-

    O.K. I can see where I jumped here. Looking back, I responded to your 11:30 post- not seeing your 11:22 post/ when I sign on I tend to just read the latest posts. I didn't see two in a row.

    I agree whole heartedly with your understanding. You can't reach people by beating them on the head. It didn't work for me.

    I do believe I would encourage people to refrain from sin/impulse such as homosexuality, abortion, adultry and such. Yes, to supress it. Which without Christ is impossible. I hear ye.

    I felt the author was in support of homosexuality...thus my comment about distinguishing between mans rules and God's. Perhaps I misunderstood the intent.


  58. I can see your point now. I assumed the author was a Christiand and nievely never even considered it might be supporting homosexuality...and I dont know the authors intent, only my interpretation. That makes your responses make more sense :p See, just our own views creating our own interpretations again :p I like being able to discuss and figure it out, instead of jumping to conclusions. Thanks for taking the time to explain.

  59. I loved the poem. Thank you for sharing hp3.
    Hmm...not so sure about the uber anti homosexuality comments though. Why do you feel that there is sin in this? Because the bible tells you so? The MAN made bible? I walked away from the OALC because of disbelief in teachings that carried no truth behind them. I occasionally dream of finding a church or community that I can be a part of, but am somewhat turned off when I hear or read comments like those above. No, I am not homosexual, but I do feel that if a person is this way, it is more than likely not by choice. So they should fight this urge for the remainder of their existance because some book declares it sinful? What is the difference between believing that and believing that no matter how backwards or twisted a religion may seem, you should continue to believe in it because 'the bible tells you so'.

  60. Anon 8:48-

    If you think the bible is just "some book" Then I understand your thinking. IF you believe it it is the true living word of God then you must accept that homosexuality is a sin, abhored by God. As are many other situations man gets themselves into.

    I don't think this is the topic here- but if you take it from the top: If it were normal, then homosexuals could produce offspring. What about pedaphiles? Or pologymous people? There is no end to "peoples rights."

    There is no scientific evidence to say one is born with it but there is scientific evidence to support the bible is indeed the word of God handed down.

  61. Some people say that the bible has been changed, and that the elders of the church back in the day (not sure which church or when..1800's or earlier, i think) picked and chose what they wanted in the bible, and what they didn't. So who knows, it all depends on what you believe. I personally believe that the bible is the word of God passed down. I do not believe homosexuality is right, but I do not judge people for their decisions either.

    Great poem by the way. I agree- for the most part!

  62. Ok - I read a lot of the posts and finally decided to scroll down and let everyone know that I left the OALC a short while ago and would love to answer ALL questions!

  63. Dear Outta,

    I find personal stories fascinating and would like to know yours. What were your reasons for leaving? Was it sudden or over a longer period? How are you handling it now?

    You will find, in reading previous years' postings, that many of us struggled for years. I wish you God Speed on your journey and hope all goes well. Keep in touch.


  64. YM-

    Judge the sin, not the sinner. Kind of a cliche, but a good one.


    Welcome to freedom in Christ!

  65. LLLreader sends greetings to Outta: Good to have you join us--as you can see we don't agree on everything around here. It's a refreshing way to live, being able to voice your differences. I personally believe that people are born with different sexual orientations. God didn't appoint me as a judge. Hope you will share some of your situation Outta.

  66. ex-Falc says...

    Welcome outtahere!

    If you want to strengthen your reason for leaving, you can take a visit with me to the polygamous colony in Mexico.

    I've got religious radicals in every direction of my family so I had to learn to be tough to handle the mindsets of these people.


    Charlie Butts - OneNewsNow - 5/14/2009 6:30:00 AM

    The attempt to prove that homosexuality is determined biologically has been dealt a knockout punch. An American Psychological Association publication includes an admission that there's no homosexual "gene" -- meaning it's not likely that homosexuals are born that way.

    For decades, the APA has not considered homosexuality a psychological disorder, while other professionals in the field consider it to be a "gender-identity" problem. But the new statement, which appears in a brochure called "Answers to Your Questions for a Better Understanding of Sexual Orientation & Homosexuality," states the following:

    "There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles...."

    That contrasts with the APA's statement in 1998: "There is considerable recent evidence to suggest that biology, including genetic or inborn hormonal factors, play a significant role in a person's sexuality."

    Peter LaBarbera, who heads Americans for Truth About Homosexuality, believes the more recent statement is an important admission because it undermines a popular theory.

    "People need to understand that the 'gay gene' theory has been one of the biggest propaganda boons of the homosexual movement over the last 10 [or] 15 years," he points out. "Studies show that if people think that people are born homosexual they're much less likely to resist the gay agenda."

    Matt Barber with Liberty Counsel feels the pronouncement may have something to do with saving face. "Well, I think here the American Psychological Association is finally trying to restore some credibility that they've lost over the years by having become a clearly political organization as opposed to an objective, scientific organization," he states. (Hear audio report)

    With the new information from the APA, Barber wonders if the organization will admit that homosexuals who want to change can change.

    "It's irrefutable from a medical standpoint that people can leave the homosexual lifestyle," he argues. "Homosexuality is defined by behavior. Untold thousands of people have found freedom from that lifestyle through either reparative therapy or through -- frankly, most effectively -- a relationship with Jesus Christ."

    LaBarbera agrees. "Change through Christ is possible -- and it's one of the most heartwarming aspects of the whole gay debate," he shares. "Many men and women have come out of homosexuality, mostly through a relationship with Jesus Christ. The fact that these professional organizations will not study that, will not acknowledge that, shows how 'in the tank' they are for the homosexual movement."

    LaBarbera stresses that even though elites will not recognize the change, that does not mean the change does not exist. In fact, both Barber and LaBarbera believe that God changes people through Christ -- regardless of the sin.

  68. LOL. Does your Jesus change homosexuality in other animals, or just humans? Funny of your God to create such diversity and then demand conformity.

  69. LLLreader reports: This Charlie Butts person didn't quote the whole article. The next line is "individuals do not feel that have a choice in their sexual orientation".
    The article actually says that there is not an absolute cause of homosexuality, but probably a combination of nature and nurture. Peter LaBarbera is the president of American's for Truth, an anti-gay organization. Matt Barber is part of another super conservative anti-gay group.

  70. If you have a disagreement, Take it up with the APA. They are not anit-gay.


    you seem to agree that homosexuality is a sin according to scripture- then you that God does not temp any man with sin. Do you talk out of both sides of your mouth? Who ARE you? "They do not feel they have a choice..." neither do the pedophiles. Now What?

    Anon 6:36

    God is a loving, merciful, sovereign God- Waiting for you with open arms. Animals do not have the brain/mind to reason and understand as humans do. That is not a equual comparison. This God that you refer to did not create sin, but rather satan did. And he gave his very son so that we may live. God is not a "fun wrecker" or a game player, and he did NOT create homosexuality any more then he did child molesters, murders, etc.. People have all kind of urges- doesn't make them right. Society is trying to allow for "if it feels right-do it" Some people want animals... is that ok to? Yet he is loving, forgiving and waiting.

    God Bless!

  71. LLLreader to PS. Are you talking to two people in your post? Couldn't follow--could you clarify? I don't believe homosexuality is a sin, I believe people are born predisposed to gayness. Why would anyone take that route which brings such hatred from some quarters? I always question the motives of folks who get real involved with organizations that go after gays. Good Grief--don't we have enough things going on in our personal lives? Why get involved in other people's sex lives? The issue of child molesters always comes up in these sorts of discussions. Being gay does not have anything to do with being a child molester. A crime against a child is just that--a crime.

  72. LLLReader, I agree with you. I, too, wonder why some folks get so involved. "Methinks thou doth protest too much" comes to mind. I think very few gays were nurtured into it. I can't picture it for myself. The way I feel is the way I feel, period. I find it interesting that people quote the Bible (Leviticus) to support their anti-gay stance, but they ignore everything else in that book: mixing fabric content, eating forbidden foods,etc. God made Everyone, including gays.

    And I agree, also, that child molesters are in an entirely different category. I wonder why people try so hard to place them in the same group? What's to gain?


  73. LLL:

    You are right, I had you confused with Hp3, my apologies to both. You said:"I believe people are born predisposed to gayness. Why would anyone take that route which brings such hatred from some quarters?" People hate murders, child molesters, cheaters,liars...why do people take those routes? Satan having his way. I misunderstood. I thought you believed the bible was the living word of God. In which case you would have to admit God HATES homosexuality and gives them up to thier reprobate minds. The God I love and serve does not condem a lifestyle and then MAKE people desire it. That is in total conflict with scripture as a whole. Which is it? God is mean and evil...on one hand condeming homesexuality on the other causing people to fall into sin? Or he is sovereign, merciful and forgiving?

    Anon 12:25-

    Pot calling the kettle black? Sounds to me like you are involved in promoting homosexuality. I try to keep up on current events. I thank God California overturned gay marriage.

    I am sure you have heard it before yet you have no logical arguement. If gay were "normal" then you could reproduce. There is NO PROOF scientificaly, psyhcologicaly (APA?) or spiritualy to what you say. Only your personal feelings" If it were only in Leviticus (which it's not) why would you throw out that part of scripture? God in no way lumps homosexuality to the law of the day: Mixing fabric, forbidden foods, etc. Not even close.

  74. oops, the above is not anon but from P.S.

  75. Can't shut up here: In response to people lumping pedaphiles with gays: It might have something to do with sexual urges. The pedaphile believes they can't "help" it either. Should they not get jail time? Is it o.k.? If it feels right do it? They feel exactly as you do about being gay. Unfortuatly, I know a few.

  76. Ps- I get why you would group pedaphiles and gays together, because they are both following their urges. I'd say the major difference is that the gay ones going for another adult with concent, and the pedaphile is going for a minor, with no concent. Thats a big difference!

  77. This is hate speech. Let's call it what it is. Homosexuality is not pedophilia, any more than heterosexuality is. In fact, pedophiles are much more likely to be male heterosexuals known to the child. If you want to prevent pedophilia, banning gay marriage is barking up the wrong tree. (AND that is the point, isn't it, for some anti-gay campaigns? To keep from cleaning one's own house, fan the flames of discrimination.)

    As for science, the ability to reproduce is not the definition of natural, although it is amusing to see traditional Christians being so reductively faux-Darwinian on the subject. Certainly a second's worth of meditation will provide examples of sexuality that are unrelated to fertilization.

    P.S., if you are a former Laestadian, I find it ironic and sad that you continue to use God as a hammer, employing the same hateful rhetoric and characterizations that have historically repressed other minorities and are still used in some LLL churches, where, for example, women are considered to have a sexuality that must be stifled or it will become criminal.

    Haven't you had enough of that warped concept of Christian love? Perhaps you haven't been out long enough, and are just beginning on your journey. Things take time.

    On this blog we have explored homosexuality before (search the archives). We saw in Markus's life the pain of not being accepted for who he was.

    On behalf of Markus and all my gay friends, I will work toward a world where they are accepted as the complete human beings they are, and able to love other consenting adults as they choose.

    At the moment, life is much too busy for me to respond to everything written here. I want to thank LLLReader and others for weighing in.

    Civil rights are not won easily but only a long and painful battle. But they will come for gays, of that I am confident.

    P.S., I implore you enlarge your vision of God. When you are filled with love, it will show in all you do.

  78. Free2bme:

    I am not sure how my opninon makes me a hater. In fact, it is God's opinion, not mine. I would really like to know what your interpretation is of scriptures that condem homosexuality? Seriously, how do you get around it enough to condone it? Please explain. I do not hate homosexuals, I actually have a couple of friends that are. Yep, it's true. We can be loving while holding on to our convictions.

    I do come from the Apostolic Lutheran Church. Raised pretty much as you all were. I can see dumping man's religion- long hair, no make up, tv, all the made up rules. But to swing so far that you ignore what God ACTAULLY commands is every bit as dangerous. You compare oppressing women as to homosexuals. I can't help being a woman. I was BORN that way. Being homosexual is a choice. It is not define as a civil right as some would have it.

    I have read all of Marcus's blog and his caring bridge site. It sounds like he repented before he died. (I do not refer to repented in the manor we were taught. Going to someone to hear believe all your sins forgiven in Jesus name and precious shed blood)

    If you want to show the love of Christ then you would share his truth.

  79. Free:

    on a side note, what do you do with scripture that says murder, adultry and such is a sin? Can we find ways to allow for it all? Make everbody feel ok about anything? A spade is spade. A sin is a sin. Not the stuff we were taught but the stuff God teaches.

  80. What if you discovered your bible was in fact not the literal word of God, but an interpretation of a translation of a text transmitted imperfectly by human beings through the centuries whose experiences cannot be fully understood, but are absolutely an expression of their specific time and place. Would you despair? Would you look to another holy text, say the Koran, to see if it was okay to murder someone? I think not. Buddhists and other atheists are oddly not tempted to murder one another, at least at no greater rate than Christians. To assume that morality is possible only through a literal interpretation of Scripture is a very sad box to dwell in and to place all humanity in. Come out of there and breathe.

  81. LLLreader to PS: We think differently. It's not going to change. The posters on this site have diverse beliefs and it's a joy to be able to express those beliefs. Let's just join together and accept each other. On the issues of homosexuality, torture, abortion, stem cells, and who knows what all--we are miles apart. I know that God loves me and I know he loves you. God's peace to us all.

  82. I take my Bible very seriously, and I don't see how same-sex relationships differ in any significant way in the eyes of God from comparable opposite-sex relationships.

    If anyone who disagrees with me would like to have a serious conversation on this issue, I'd be glad to correspond with you. My email address is e (dot) tomte (at) gmail (dot) com.

    God's Peace!

  83. P.S. and others who might be interested, there is a new forum you might like to check out. It is called Christian Homesteader, and a wide variety of topics are discussed, including politics and religion. http://christianhomesteader.forumotion.net/forum.htm

  84. Free and LLL:

    Thank You for making it clear. This is not a christian site. Since I am decidely Christian, we will never agree. No, It is not being closed minded, it is faith. And it is by that faith that I know the bible has zero errors. What cannot be obviously literal in the scriptures has a spiritual meaning. (i.e. the parables) But it is very literal about homosexuality- and the only way to heaven is thru Jesus Christ. I do not embrace everything the wind blows. (You gotta stand for something or you will fall for anything.)I live free in Christ. Not free in a politically correct world. I have to deduce that you either don't consider the questions I posed important, or you have nothing but generic answers.

    1. Marcus's repentance...
    2. Scientific and psyhchological
    opinions...(APA, for one) Do you
    claim to know MORE then them or
    can we agree, you just have an
    3. Scripture: You let me know that
    one loud and clear.

    It is double speek to embrace the Koran when the very nature of their exsistance fiercly oppresses women AND homosexuality.

    Norah: Thanks, I will check it out.

  85. Wow. Didn't take you very long to accuse whoever doesn't agree with you of not being a Christian. How very Laestadian of you.

  86. PS, I'm sorry if you are not happy with the site. You will find there are many here and elsewhere who love Scripture and Jesus, but do not share your opinions. That has always been true.

    But you will increasingly find that equating gays with pedophiles is considered hate speech, and I think that's a positive thing. It doesn't matter if one thinks the Bible prohibits homosexuality or red hair (or freckled priests, per Leviticus) as long as you don't infringe on the rights and dignity of gays or redheads or freckled priests.

    As for your questions, I thought they were rhetorical. You ask "what do you do with scripture that says murder, adultry and such is a sin? Can we find ways to allow for it all? Make everbody feel ok about anything?"

    The point I was trying to make in my response was that prohibitions against cruelty are universal and timeless because they respond to our moral sense of justice, whether one is a person of faith or not. (I was not embracing the Koran.)

    I am not advocating "anything goes." If you look through the archives, that should be clear.

    But I don't think anyone has the power to know who qualifies as a follower of Christ, or what someone's deathbed words mean, or what God thinks.

    But it's okay if people disagree with me.

    I'm used to it.

    I assume that we are all sojourners with more questions than answers, and that the best moment-to-moment moral standard is what is mosta compassionate. This is a much more demanding standard than Hebrew tribal laws (and their many permutations) but it is what all the faith traditions advocate because it is truly transformative.

  87. LLLreader to PS: I was prepared to have us give a blessing to EACH OTHER, and understand that even though we think differently, we are both children of God. You are no more, or any less, a Christian then I am. I am deeply offended by your superior attitude. I will move on and not direct any more posts to you. Find someone else to bully.

  88. Oh, LLL

    Because I hold as strong to my opinions as you yours, I am a bully? I don't mean to sound superior- Just standing convicted.
    It is o.k. if you give me the silent treatment!

  89. I have to agree with P.S about homosexuality being a sin. I found this on allaboutgod.com

    The Bible is very clear that homosexuality is a sin (Genesis 19:1-13; Leviticus 18:22; 1 Corinthians 6:9). The Bible says that homosexuality comes as a result of disobeying God. Romans 1:26-27 says, "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion."

    Other verses say that homosexuals cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. 1 Corinthians 6:9 says, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders."

    Will God accept a homosexual who comes to Him for salvation? Absolutely! Homosexuality is a sin like any other sin and God's forgiveness is just as much available to that person than to someone who lies, worships idols, commits adultery, etc. However, once a person is a child of God, they will no longer continue in a lifestyle of sin. God promises the strength for victory over sin, including homosexuality, to all those who will believe in Jesus Christ for their salvation. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new."

    I agree the bible cannot be more clear.

  90. Is that you again, P.S.? ;-) Why don't you email me and I'll discuss this with you in exruciating detail? ;-)

    All I'll say here is that your argument depends on making some assumptions that aren't found anywhere in the Bible.

  91. older-understanding one5/19/2009 01:40:00 PM

    What is with your superior attitude? I am on the same side of the fence as P.S. and I see that in you but not in P.S. I suppose that all depends on what convictions we have, but I do sense a condescending tone in your posts.

  92. Maybe in both cases you are reading something that isn't there.

    Sorry, couldn't resist. :)

  93. No, the anon post was by me, sorry. I guess my beliefs are based on the bible. I guess I don't see what scripture I quoted as being just an assumption. Clear to me! Written in the book.

  94. 1 Corinthians 6:9 says, "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders.

    How is that not more clear?? Anyhow, I'm not going to debate. This is my belief and you have a right to yours! =)

  95. older-understanding one5/19/2009 06:24:00 PM

    Well, Tomte, I may not appreciate some of your views, but I can appreciate your sense of humor!

  96. older-understanding, I hope I can take the Bible seriously without taking myself too seriously. :-)

    Pretzel, if you want to have a serious discussion about this topic, please email me at e (dot) tomte (at) gmail (dot) com. I have lots to say on this topic, and would appreciate a forum to hear your views in more detail and depth than this venue will allow.

    For now, I'll just say that my Bible doesn't say that --and neither did Martin Luther's and neither did Lars Levi Laestadius'. The folks at Zondervan have taken it upon themselves to do your thinking for you, I'm afraid. It's worth wondering why before you cast a group of people out of God's kingdom.

  97. LLLreader to PS: I do have to make a comment about the bully thing. Having equally strong convictions as someone with conflicting convictions, and voicing them, does not make a person a bully. When it shifts over to "this isn't a Christian blog" meaning "obviously you aren't a Christian" does edge over into that bullydem area. As Tomte mentioned, that sounds mighty like the OAL party line. I was trying to acknowledge that we are God's children, with our differences in beliefs not detracting from our basic belief and love of the Lord. Let's give each other some leeway here.

  98. LLL:

    Suffice it to say that after Free's post on 5/16-11:32, along with some of yours, makes it pretty clear that you believe we should embrace all religions and way of thinking. By definition, a christian is a Christ follower, believes that the bible is without error, handed down thru the centuries. There IS black and white (pretzel's post) and grace is free for all who repent and believe.

    Do you consider this a christian site?

    Pretzel: Thanks for your input and sharing scripture.

  99. Neither am I "embracing" the Qur'an, but your statements about judging Muslim beliefs based on the Shiite extremists is just as unrealistic as someone judging the entire Christian faith by Fred Phelps and his church. Do some homework with an open mind, and then come back with some real information. Throwing around stereotypes is neither helpful nor does it add depth to the discussion.

    And you ask if this is a Christian site...what does that mean? If you mean does it promote one point of view to the exclusion of all others--no. Free has done a great job of keeping the dialog open to all opinions. No one gets to claim the only right answers to the exclusion of all others.

    It would be a shame to close off the discussion just because someone thinks they're right and everyone else is wrong. How else are we going to think about other possibilities if all we do is talk with people who agree with us? We have so much we can learn from each other.

  100. oopsa-daisy:

    The Muslim's oppress women and kill homosexuals. Has nothing to do with the Shiite's. Common knowledge, that one.

    You made my point exactly:

    " No one gets to claim the only right answers to the exclusion of all others."

    If this is a christian site- as I understand I offended LLL with, Then There is only one way, one truth.

    Do you think for a minute that the Muslim's embrace (you, you're) christianity? they HATE it.

    Should we return the favor? No. Should we stand for truth/Christ?

    Absolutely, yes.

  101. oopsa-daisy:

    The Muslim's oppress women and kill homosexuals. Has nothing to do with the Shiite's. Common knowledge, that one.

    You made my point exactly:

    " No one gets to claim the only right answers to the exclusion of all others."

    If this is a christian site- as I understand I offended LLL with, Then There is only one way, one truth.

    Do you think for a minute that the Muslim's embrace (you, you're) christianity? they HATE it.

    Should we return the favor? No. Should we stand for truth/Christ?

    Absolutely, yes.

  102. Didn't mean to double post. You said I should come back with real information. I could post a encyclopedia full of it. But you still would refuse to see beyond your OPINION.

    For the record: I don't mind being a christian stereo-type if it means standing for truth in Christ.

  103. Tomte: I appreciate your difference in opinion. You have your views, I have mine. I guess I'll leave it at that and let God be the judge. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I'm not. Its just what I believe. I guess if we all understood Hebrew and Greek we could rely on those books and not translations. There are just several places the other translations speaks of homosexuality being a sin. Sodom and Gomorrah for instance. I guess if those translations are not correct, then ??? Anyhow........I guess I just leave it in Gods hand and let him decide!

  104. PS, it doesn't even say anywhere in the Bible that the Bible is inerrant. So it amazes me that you will make belief in an inerrant Bible the litmus test for who is really a Christian.

    I'm not interested in creating litmus tests, but for normative Christian beliefs I would look to the Nicene Creed before making up something on your own to exclude others.

  105. Pretzel, I'm prepared to answer every verse in every translation you present if necessary, but it sounds like neither one of us really want to do that here. So I'll let it be if you will. We can always email about it if we want to get into that level of detail.

    As my wife keeps needing to remind me, not everyone is always interested beyond a certain level of detail. ;-)

  106. LLLreader comments: I recently read an article (can't remember where) that discussed fundamental Christians. Often (not always) some feel a need to be in a battle. There is a need (among some) to be RIGHT. I have experienced this with some of my conservative friends. Yes, I have conservative friends! However, none of them would go as far as saying I'm not Christian--that would cross a line. Most members of the OALC refer to themselves as Christians, with the rest of the world lumped together as dead faith types. When I came out of that kind of teaching, I felt no need to go into another black and white, I'm right your're wrong, kind of worship. To study, to learn, and to be open to other interpretations is a freedom that is wonderful to realize.

  107. Tomte:

    I have read the Nicene creed. Don't get what your getting.
    In fact, scripture does tell us it is infalliable. The rest is called faith.

    Anon 11:24-

    A battle can't happen without the other side. What is your post, if not full of bullets?

  108. PS, um, actually, it doesn't.

  109. and infallible is spelled with only one "a."

  110. Wow tomti: (sp.)

    I am relieved we have a spell checker correcting our errors. NOW you have proved your intelligence.

    Um, actually it does.

  111. Well, if you can't even spell the word, why expect me to believe your unfounded claims regarding it? Or is that where faith comes in? ;-)

    Show me the verse that you think says the Bible is either inerrant or infallible, and then maybe we can discuss this above a third grade level.

  112. Tomte, pointing out spelling errors is a distraction and avoidance of discussing the issues. Everybodi nose dat.

  113. Tomti-

    I am a college graduate. Are you? Like most, I have learned to rely on spell check. I know, They didn't have spell check when you were in the third grade.

    2 Samuel 22:31
    "As for God, his way is perfect; the word of the LORD is FLAWLESS He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.

    Psalm 18:30
    As for God, his way is PERFECT; the word of the LORD is FLAWLESS He is a shield for all who take refuge in him.

    Proverbs 30:5
    "Every word of God is FLAWLESS; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him

    2 Timothy 3:16
    All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete,

    guard what has been entrusted to your care. Turn away from godless chatter and the opposing ideas of what is falsely called knowledge, 21which some have professed and in so doing have wandered from the faith.
    Grace be with you

  114. Norah, surely you can see the irony and humor in misspelling "infallible?" :)

    I'll have more commentary on the verses PS cited later, but for now I'll say that I'm reading them again and again and still don't see "infallible" or "inerrant."

    I do see an assumption, however. The assumption that what is being referred to as "the word of the Lord" or "the word of God" in these verses equals the text of our Bible.

    That's a big assumption without any biblical support, especially in light of the gospel of John chapter 1, which seems to point to Jesus Christ being the Word of God, and not the Bible.

  115. Tomtiey-

    Let me give you a few basic third grade vocabulary lessons: Note the definition of YOU words and mine. Scarily the same meanings.


    excellent or complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement:

    entirely without any flaws, defects, or shortcomings:

    accurate, exact, or correct in every detail:

    Flawless: Without (Flaw)a defect impairing legal soundness or validity.


    1.absolutely trustworthy or sure:

    2.4.Roman Catholic Church. immune from fallacy or liability to error in expounding matters of faith or morals by virtue of the promise made by Christ to the Church.


    free from error; infallible.

    No assumtion here, while we are on the subject of third grade. which college did you graduate from?

    God, Jesus Christ, the holy spirit are one. Therefor it makes PERFECT sense, John 1. This is a basic precept of christianity. Keep reading.

    Ta, Ta, It is sunny and warm and I am off to a office party.

  116. you gnu what he meant, Tomte.. if he agreed with you, spelling wouldn't even be mentioned. :-).

  117. PS, you claim that your theology is "simple" and based on scripture, yet you use words that don't even appear in the Bible.

    You're also ducking my point, continuing to insist that the Bible is the same thing as "the word of the Lord" or "the word of God" even though John 1 clearly states that Jesus is the Word.

    You're the literalist. Why aren't you willing to take John 1 literally?

    Isn't it idolatry to make something other than Jesus the Word when the Bible clearly states he is the Word?

  118. Tomtiey-

    For now I am losing interest in your baseless coments.The three are one. So it's great you believe and want to make a huge divide that the bible is not the word of God but the word of the "Lord"
    Uh, o.k.

    Somehow I have really gotten under your skin- and that says something about you and you issues.

    But now I find you just plain booring. And perhaps the most narrow minded person I have yet to meet.

  119. PS, If all you've got left are personal attacks, then I guess the discussion is really over.

    Enjoy your weekend.

  120. ps:you have a way of getting under alot of peoples skin, not only tomtes. So maybe it's you...

    (I know my spelling and grammer isn't perfect)

  121. How 'bout y'all say MEOW one more time loudly, and then stop and talk about the important stuff? Good grief.

    There, that ought make everybody mad at me so at least your anger can be focused.

  122. Anon 12:51-

    On the flip side, alot of people agree with me. And for that matter, if my differing opinion gets under peoples skin then who has the real problem?

    I see alot of people are afraid of tomtiey- there are so many posts now warning that there spelling might be incorrect to.

    Speaking of tomtiey, Instead of responding to "the important stuff" he left a post with a spelling lesson. Can anyone say childish?

  123. BILLY GRAHAM'S Prayer For Our Nation:


    "Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, ' Woe to those who call evil good, ' but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values. We have exploited the poor and called it the lottery. We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.. We have killed our unborn and called it choice. We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable. We have neglected to discipline our children and calledit building self esteem. We have abused power andcalled it politics.. We have coveted our neighbor' s possessions and called it ambition. We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of expression. We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment. Searchus, Oh God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and Set us free. Amen! '

    Commentator PAUL HARVEY aired this prayer on his radio program, ' The Rest of the Story, ' and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord ' shelp, may this prayer sweep over our nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called ' One nation under God.. '

  124. Ps: there are lots of people with different opinions on this site...I don't see them getting under anyones skin..? hmm...

    That last post was pretty interesting, and I have to say that I agree for the most part. I think human rights are getting a little out of control. The question is: Where do we draw the line??

  125. Anon 7:18-

    Perhaps you have not read enough of the blog? I see plenty of people ran off because they have differing opinions.

    an you define what it is that aggravates? Is it my spelling? Is it that I believe the bible is the inerrant, infallible, perfect and flawless word of God?

    Is it that I believe homosexuality IS sin? And that the very people this site embraces (muslim, etc...) kill homosexuals? That is o.k.? but not my Opinion?

    Is it that I am tired of people dogging on my country, whom my son serves? Is it that I don't agree with socialized medicine? Is it that I refuse to waver on truth?

    How, I ask, by the very nature of my believing I live in the greatest free nation in the world- is that a put down to other countries? You see, Political correctness has gotten out of control. How is it that people feel I condem them when the exact definition of christian doesn't match their theology? (As defined in the bible, the dictionary and the world as a whole?)

    I would say (in my opinion: O.K. another country?) that we base human rights on a couple of things:

    The following go hand in hand: The bible and the constitution. Our forfathers wrote the bill of rights and the constitution based on biblical scripture. Not how people have contorted it today. So many people draw their own conclusions and interpretations on what the constitution means. Without learning about it. That is in part due to the fact so much of it is omitted from text books these days. Instead you will find a run down on Bill Clinton and the like.

    I encourage everyone to google David Barton. He is one if the country's most respected historians. I heard him speak. His library of original letters and discussion between those who wrote the constitution is astounding. You will get a whole new perspective on what our country is based on. 99% of them were christians and based it on that. The others agreed on a moral basis.

    So there you have the law and the gospel ( sorry, couldn't help it)

    Let me know what you think if you research it.

  126. David Barton is a crackpot. He doesn't even have a real history degree.

  127. It's not any of the things you believe because thats fine, everyone has different opinions. Its the way you say it...the way you word it. It sounds like you think your opinion is the only right one, and you will not considering anyone elses'(sp? heh) opinion. Thats what it sounds like anyways, maybe you are not like that at all... I don't know, I don't know you.

  128. Anon 8:09-

    I do come across pretty strong with my opinions. At the risk of repeating myself, I love my country- that offended. I was hit with a slew of reasons why America sucks.I hope I clarified with anon from another country that my loving the U.S.- doesn't make me hate hers

    Tomtiey asked for scripture regarding the perfect, flawless, inerrant, infallible word of God and then ignored it and corrected my spelling.

    Perhaps he ran out of insults for me and now is hurling them at David Barton. See where I am going here? When he criticizes Mr. Barton, he criticizes our for fathers. Because he holds the actual original and explicet documents that led to our constitution.

    Tomtiey should be sastified to know I hold a degree. Does he?

    If you think I am the only one attacked on this blog, just back up to the top of this thread and read again. That was before I exsisted on this site.

  129. If David Barton actually had a history degree, maybe he would know that he can't just make stuff up and call it history, and that there is a little thing called "citing sources" that is very important to the profession --especially if folks are going to be able to check up on what he says to verify its accuracy.

    Calling David Barton "one if [sic] the country's most respected historians" shows ignorance of the highest degree.

  130. Just checked out David Barton's website.. can you tell me where he is not citing sources? I didn't read the whole thing, but it seemed he had plenty of sources there.

    In my opinion, a degree should not be a qualification to have a website or be a public speaker. Plenty of people are self-taught. I would tend to agree with what he has on his website.. we should all be watchers on the wall. I should speak out more than I do. We are living in times where many people are looking for answers, and as things deteriorate many more people will be doing so. In times like this, people who have a personal relationship with Christ are more important than ever, using whatever means available to them. We are all different, we have different kinds of voices, but we are all needed. As a former boss used to say, "Everyone adds up to 10"! Most people cannot even think about posting to a blog or website, either they are too timid or they just aren't skilled at expressing themselves. There are a lot more lurkers than posters. So if someone has zeal and conviction, I say hear that person out and ignore or walk away if you don't agree. There is no harm in that.

    Tomte, you did not call me names when I mentioned the words conservative or fundamentalist. I don't know why you thought that. I gladly describe myself as both. Now more than ever we need people with backbone, conviction and clarity. I hope I am one of those people.

  131. David Barton spent 8 years as an educator and school administrator..has a massive library of tens of thousands of original writings from the Founding Era, addresses over 400 groups each year, is a consultant to state and federal legislators, helped develop textbooks, named by Time magazine as one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals, and won numerous awards...(from the website)

    just sayin'

  132. A degree is not a prerequisite to having a website or being a public speaker. It is, however, a requirement for being an "historian."
    -a fly on the wall.

  133. Here's a David Barton quote you probably won't find on his web-site:

    "If they come at you with intimidation what you've gotta do is punch them in the nose a lot harder than they were going to hit you the first time...You know, they're coming at you waving all these butcher knives and all these bowie knives, and great, I'll just pull out my machine gun and shoot y'all..." David Barton as quoted in People and Events, CHURCH AND STATE April 2008, pg. 16.

    Respected scholars, regardless of their position on this matter, cite the works of other scholars and primary sources, etc in their footnotes and end notes. Perhaps, the biggest condemnation of Barton and his work is that rarely, if ever, do respected scholars cite any of his publications as any kind of source. Even those respected scholars who basically agree with his position rarely, if ever, cite any of his publications. They don't want to connect their names to his, because of his reputation for shoddy research, inaccuracies, misrepresentations, etc.

    Norah, here's a partial list of problems with Barton's work:

    Here's is a more in-depth critique of Barton's book America's Godly Heritage, put out by the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs (hardly a liberal group.)

    The main point to remember about Barton is that he is a dominionist. These folks believe that there is no separation of church and state, and that the laws of the US should be based on the book of Leviticus, Taliban style. You don't have to be liberal to find that disturbing.

  134. As a former homeschooler I have researched the issues involved here. I'm not going to spend any more time on this, but encourage anyone interested to take some time and see what the fuss is all about. A book that is out of print but a great resource is "What Are They Teaching Our Children" by Mel and Norma Gabler.

  135. Exclusive Interview:

    Newt Gingrich Stepping Up Defense of Religion in the Public Square - God & Coun

    Source: www.usnews.com