"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Parking Lots and Teens

Friday, July 18, 2008

Parking Lots and Teens

From this week's Reflector:

Maybe teens should hang out in church parking lot

In the letter to the editor, Ms. Jennifer Bohn of Battle Ground is right, we do not owe teens a place to "hang out," and be disruptive. These teens are like a lot of kids. Their behavior is not unusual. They want to be together and socialize. That's a good thing. The problem is that not all, but many of them throw their Starbucks cups, soda bottles, Quizno's and Jack-in-the-Box fast food wrappers, their countless cigarette butts, and blobs of slimy chew on the ground between the Fred Meyer store and the Starbucks. Until the people are told this is wrong and not acceptable, they will continue doing what they're doing.

Many of them are discourteous to shoppers wishing to drive through the parking lot to go shopping. Now that more and more of your readers are fed up and speaking up, perhaps the management at the Fred Meyer and surrounding stores will understand the shopping public has a choice of where they spend or don't spend their money.

The problem will either be corrected quickly, or many of us that don't want the hassle or disruption, will simply turn the other cheek and take our dollars to shop elsewhere. Have you noticed how nice the Safeway is since the remodel? There's even a Starbucks inside.

I do have a suggestion of where the teens can "hang out." How about the Apostolic Lutheran Church south of town by the Cedars golf course? Their sign reads, "Everyone Welcome." Wonderful and neighborly. Now, all the church needs to do is take the padlock off the gate and let the teens hang out there, and throw cigarette butts, fast food wrappers, soda bottles, and Starbucks cups on the ground.

Many of the teens already know where that church is. I know where it is because I've driven there, and taken the time to speak with some of the church's elders about this issue. By the way, with no resolution or commitment from them. I suspect the gate to their parking lot is locked to keep teens out. That is odd. I've never seen another church that has a gated and locked parking lot. I'm puzzled. Or, maybe those of us bothered by the discourteous teens can stop, smile, shake hands, park next to them and "hang out." We could play our car stereos loud, and socialize with them. We could talk about local, nation, international politics, or just smile and be with them. That would drive any normal teenager to find another place to gather.

Maybe Mr. Monty Center of Amboy could do as Ms. Bohn suggested, and invite the teens over to his place. It's a win-win for everyone. And they lived happily ever after. God bless us, everyone.

Michael Mitchell Battle Ground, WA

As I mentioned earlier, I feel bad for the many considerate, nonlittering, nonloitering OALC teens who will no doubt be teased about this.

For the others, community service would be an appropriate penalty: work on a cleanup crew, read books to the elderly, or peel potatoes in a soup kitchen. OALC mission work.

This also presents an opportunity for the OALC to provide something for these kids to do. How about some basketball hoops in the church parking lot? A construction project? Idle hands are the devil's workshop, and all that.

64 comments:

  1. If they cant smoke on their church property, then obviously is became a sin for them to smoke. Do the youth or others pay heed to the elders anymore? I for one find this baffling.

    ReplyDelete
  2. Flash back to the 1980's...I find myself at the Hazel Dell Drive-Inn Theatre...back when it was still open. I had left the OALC several years before. Actually, I left the day I was confirmed. I knew that the OALC doctrine as NOT for me. Anyway, at the drive-in, a OALC member approached me and told me that I was going to HELL for being at the drive-inn and drinking a beer. He didn't seem to realize that he was at the same place I was and also had beer on his breath. This reinforced my issue with OALC'ers having double standards. This whole incident really re-inforced my decision to leave.

    The OALC teens and young adults are still the same today. They belive they are untouchable and display the same shallow-mindedness and disrespectfullness as the teens of my youth.

    I am soooo glad I left! I can only hope I can be a positive example to my neices and nephews who have been raised within the OALC!

    ReplyDelete
  3. This is not related to the post, but just a question...why can I not see the rest of the blog in IE? I can only see the most recent post, and not even all of that.

    I have to use a Mozilla browser to see the comment link and the rest of the blog.

    ReplyDelete
  4. How frustrating! This appears to be a compatibility problem with Internet Explorer (IE users are only able to view the first post). I will complain to Blogger but meanwhile, please download a free copy of Firefox here.

    ReplyDelete
  5. I agree. Free, I found Mozilla will do the trick, but if folks don't figure it out by themselves, they can't see the instructions since the only thing showing in IE is the main topic post -- no comments.

    ReplyDelete
  6. How strange, the incompatibility seems to only have occurred for me as of this past weekend? Does this mean I will have to use Firefox to view your site, but my msn is still allright for my other web stuff?

    ReplyDelete
  7. In my experience growing up in the Brush Prairie oalc, and hanging around big and bad Battle Ground ;) I remember the list of do's and dont's to be very intimidating. We were in our natural stage of questioning life and trying to figure things out and to have all that inconsequential stuff piled on... with such weighty soul consequences... well it just brought out the rebel in me :) Whats so strange though, is what we would do to be rebellious... littering & tobacco, speeding or acting superior to 'worldlies' or someone from the church but outside our particular group.

    Well those were things that hadnt been put on the "go to hell" list, but they were still wrong to most people, so they seemed easier to do than trying to rebel by wearing makeup or trying to grow a scraggly beard, or heaven forbid - asking questions. THis way we just received a frown, rather than a lecture about hell. We could 'assert' ourselves and in some weird, small way claim to be an individual in our world. Not follow the rules, but not get into too much trouble. After all, a frown from a 'mere worldly' was ok. We didnt have to answer to them, we were God's chosen people and all we had to worry about was not going to hell over stuff that " really mattered" like not getting caught listening to music or having bangs or the wrong length of a skirt.

    Now dont get me wrong here, Im not condoning thier actions and something still neEDs to be done. Just some insight that came to mind. It cant really be handled in the usual way, because thier thought process for justifying that behavior may be different than the average teen. Maybe... I dont know. I guess I didnt know too many 'average teens' when I was a teen.

    ReplyDelete
  8. I love your perspective, hp3. Very insightful. MTH

    ReplyDelete
  9. I think there's a larger problem here: child labor laws.

    While they were well-intentioned to stop children from being forced to work in dangerous factories, the laws now make it prohibitive for employers to hire teens. The paperwork alone is too much of a burden for many small businesses owners. Plus, what kids can do is so restrictive, from being able to work only a couple hours a day during certain hours to strict limits on the equipment they can operate. (For example, under the law, a cordless drill may be off limits, but a swinging a long, razor-sharp knife or machete at a Christmas tree is not.)

    It used to be, too, that kids had chores around the home & farm. With the disappearance of small farms, and modern construction that requires little maintenance, convenient & cheap foods (no more backyard gardens or long meal preps) there just isn't that much to keep a kid at home.

    Right now our standard of living is high enough that a single income earner can comfortably support a family (and when both parents work they really shine). The teens don't need to find a job to help support the family and their own wants & wishes.

    So since it's so hard (& not really necessary) for kids these days to find a job, they are left with "nothing to do." Unlike other kids in the community, OALCers aren't allowed to go to movies or watch sporting events; stuff everybody else does in the evening to stay out of trouble. This means that all they have to do is hang out with their friends and get into mischief.

    ReplyDelete
  10. Where there any additional comments in this weeks Reflector?

    ReplyDelete
  11. to anon 12: 13

    No, but I was looking for some.

    ReplyDelete
  12. Before anybody jumps on me... I'm not defending the youth or excusing the problem.

    I'm only trying to point out that with societal issues, like medical issues, the symptom is rarely the problem. Attacking or proposing a solution to the symptom will never solve the problem -- you must dig deeper to find the root cause.

    As another poster said, idle hands are the devil's workshop. Here, we have a group of youth who are prevented from doing what their parents would have them do (work) by society (to "save the children"), and are prevented from doing what society would have them do (sports, entertainment) by their church (to "save them from the world"). They have no chores and they can't get jobs. What's left for them to do besides hang out in the FM parking lot? Fred Meyer can't even hand them brooms and tell them to start sweeping!

    ReplyDelete
  13. il coro: I think you have a great and very valid point. There is not much else these kids can do. But since Im no longer in the church, I am really not sure what some solutions may be. My solution was to do things differently, but that included attending church elsewhere and believing differently...

    My kids have chores they alone are responsible for, we also have family chores that we do together and they already have to 'earn' prizes and things they want. They sometimes 'complain' that thier friends dont have to do as much if anything, but we then have a discussion about 'the real world' and how the things they have to do now are life lessons for later :p Im such a mean parent!

    ReplyDelete
  14. Can OALC kids play sports? Not school teams, but can they go play some baseball with each other?

    ReplyDelete
  15. Unfortunately, the answer will vary greatly depending on which particular branch of LLL you ask, which particular locality within a particular branch, and even vary depending on which family you ask. And they will maddenly still insist they are all the same :p

    In the Brush Prairie congregation where I spent much of my time in the OALC, it was preached that organized sports were sin. We could play among ourselves, but it couldnt be 'organized.' I remember being told that if we 'just happended' to have a ball in someones car and 'just happened' to get it out when there were a group together, then it was ok, but we couldnt plan to meet and play; volleyball was really popular.

    Getting together unsupervised was discouraged, its best if the preachers were there too, so it was a "gathering" which meant all the young kids would meet at someones house and set and listen to another serman. (Its supposed to be a time to ask questions too, and sometimes they will go around to see what others think, but in the end there is only one right answer which the preachers will tell you. Then you feel stupid for 'getting it wrong.')

    Gatherings were ok on Sunday, but it was sin to to do anything else on Sundays. So we really werent supposed to get together "and be idle" but gatherins were just antoher serman... so yah, not much we could do without it being a sin. Fred Meyer parking lot is starting to look pretty good after awhile... Im sure the kids are just as frustrated as the customers...

    ReplyDelete
  16. Oh, and the other maddening part (about the church that 'never changes') is that what I experienced could be different because the 'rules' change over time, so each generation has different experiences. My experiences were about in the late 90's.

    ReplyDelete
  17. I have a baseball team picture taken about 1935 in Battle Ground. Two of the team members are also staunch members of the OALC. Back then it must have been considered OK, because they would not have gone against the rules of the church.

    ReplyDelete
  18. Has Lewisville Park been preached as a sin yet? At leas some years back it used to be quite popular to go there and it also used to be quite common that someone "happened" to have a volley ball in their car. ;)

    By the way, if the reason why it's considered sort of inappropriate to play sports on a Sunday is that you get sweaty or that you have to take your shirt off or something, maybe they should import a game called "mölkky" from Finland. It's very popular among the OALC kids over here (not uncommon among adults either). It's described over here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M%C3%B6lkky

    It keeps you busy but doesn't make you too sweaty so you should be able to play it even in your Sunday clothes! :)

    Hibernatus

    ReplyDelete
  19. To Hibernatus,
    Sports was preached as sin in my old OALC congregation because they said that the sports competition fostered hard feelings and disagreements. It wasn't just banned on Sunday and had nothing to do with sweaty clothes!

    An interesting note is that 20 odd years ago we OALCers used to gather and play softball! The whole church would turn out and we had fun! This same church today bans all sports and is a sad remnant of what it used to be!

    ReplyDelete
  20. mölkky sounds like bowling only without a ball!

    Gee, I thought the Finns had discovered the ball by now! ;).

    ReplyDelete
  21. Its too bad they have to look at the negative side of sports. Kids can learn alot from sports, sportsmanship, teamwork, and discipline. And have some fun! I think parents just need to teach their kids to win humbly and lose with their head up. You win some, you lose some. As long as you did your best and did it with honor. Theres a great Christian movie called, "Facing The Giants". Its about a high school football team. Very good movie about faith and Christ in a football team.

    ReplyDelete
  22. RWB here...

    First, I have been to many of the OALC localities or have friends and relatives in all of them. None, to my knowledge, BAN all sports.

    In my lifetime, organized sports have always been preached as something we (OALC) should stay away from...not as sin. We have this thing called the telephone patch where we hear sermons from other OALC churches all the time so I know that it is the same from place to place...at least as far as I have heard it. Anyway, it is the stuff that comes along with these sports that is sin. Sports on Sunday should be avoided. In reality, some kids go to the beach and play volleyball (or some other sport) together...yes even on Sundays this happens...we ain't purrrrfekt...

    I'm not that old, but back in 1935 baseball and other games were probably decent, respectable activities, even in the organized leagues. Most of the organized sports now is beer league stuff with cursing and fighting mixed in. I checked out a "church" league one time and was surprised how intense the games were with arguements, hostility, cussing, and some apparent hard feelings, maybe even more so than the beer league....beer league stuff minus the beer. Some of the beer drinking in the church league was done after the game...not during it. Oh yeah, and the tournaments or playoffs were held on Sunday afternoons.

    Sports used to be about fun, teamwork, leadership, and comraderie. While they still hold some of those values, they have become more about false honor, pride, and glory. It seems every week we see another news story where some parent goes berzerk at a tee ball game because little Joey's stats were falling off because the coach wasn't letting him bat every 4th time. The sometimes not-so-tame hazing rituals exist in every high school sports program I know of. Many parties are held and associated with these team sports where sometimes even the parents provide alcohol in a "controlled" environ. Professional athletes as positive role models for the youth almost don't exist anymore, but kids still look up to them. It's easy for me to see why the things associated with organized sports are not a good place for a christian to be, but that's just me. There are positives to sports than can be had outside the organized realm and many kids partake in unorganized sports with others neighborhood kids and church kids alike.

    So maybe hangin' out in the FM parking lot isn't such a bad thing, but these kids need to correct their behavior because it appears to have gotten out of hand there. This sheds a bad light on our church (OALC) and is not indicative of what we teach or preach....kids anywhere will make the wrong decisions more often than not. They need to be told that what they are doing is wrong and that would be the end of it.

    Smoking: Less and less kids/teens across the board are smoking these days and this goes for the OALC to. When I was a teen it was nothing to see a couple hundred teens light up after church. In some places (BG) you can't smoke at church...it has nothing to do with sin....just a grounds keeping issue...that's why these kids at FM should (hopefully) get the hint that if it's not OK to toss your butts or other things on the grounds at church, it isn't OK anywhere else. In other places where smoking is allowed at church there is usually a designated place for it and I don't see very many that smoke anymore. I will go out on a limb here and say that if smoking was invented today and we knew all the harmful things about it that we now know it would be taught as something we should avoid...guess we got that one wrong...but it is slowly going by the wayside. The same goes for the government, but being the cash cow it is for them they will never be able to ban it...no way the revenue could be replaced....guess they got it wrong too.

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  23. The sports thing has always varied apparently community to community. In my home community in the 1950s and 60s, many (at times, most) of the OALC kids, girls and boys, participated in school sports and community sports. Shucks, I've got the pictures to prove it, with even some of the current crop of preachers in basketball, football, and track uniforms. I was quite happy to play with some of them and root for others, as they were pretty good athletes!

    I have never understood why there was anything wrong with playing sports. Why is it wrong to play baseball or football, but ok to hunt and fish? (Oh don't tell me that hunting and fishing is to put food on the table! As a very successful hunter/fisherman, I can assure you the supermarket version of food is a lot cheaper!) Is it the competition aspect? I think we compete in one way or another trhoughout life, and don't see that as a particular problem either. As a matter of fact, it is probably in those youth sports that we learn things about honor, and playing fair, and that winning is not everything.

    ReplyDelete
  24. 4eyes, I am SOOO curious about what part of the country you are from. Most communities are growing (from runaway procreation) so there are not too many that are "sad remnants." MTH

    ReplyDelete
  25. 4eyes, I agree mölkky has some similarities with golf - sports without really being sports ;) It's even more similar to the French pétanque, but still the difference is that the Finnish game doesn't use balls while the French one does. I guess they are right about the Finns not being civilized people... :)

    Hibernatus

    ReplyDelete
  26. To MTH,
    I really don't want to say which locality I'm from at this time, however it is not the west coast.
    My comment about the church being a sad remnant of what it used to be was in reference to the strict, law minded rules they have adopted compared to a much more loving and welcoming church that I remember from years ago. Regardless what rwb says, all sports were preached as sin in my locality.

    To RWB, After many decades in the OALC I believe I am qualified to talk about my experiences there. Why do you continue to deny things I have personally experienced?

    ReplyDelete
  27. 4Eyes, I'll put words in RWB's mouth and say he denies our experiences because he HAS to. Where would his faith in the OALC be if he were to acknowledge that our experiences may have some merit? Talk about a slippery slope! SISU

    ReplyDelete
  28. OALC teens from the BP church still participated in sports at BGHS in the 1950's. The pictures are in the annual.

    ReplyDelete
  29. This week`s Reflector had somebody defending the teens. I don`t belong to the church, but I think they could maybe hang out by the cinema, too. There is a Subway and other establishments to frequent. They have never given me any hassles or problems when I have been through there, so lets all cut them some slack OK?

    ReplyDelete
  30. There is no way they could hang out by the cinema, they might be accused of going to movies.

    ReplyDelete
  31. rwb: I agree with you that there are many, many issues with the sports arena as its practiced today and the problems can be 'blamed' on many unGodly attitudes. Yet I also agree with Cvow and the others in that there are many good things to be learned from sports and some healthy competition. It would be another area that Christians are called to be different than the world by setting an example, rather than avoiding it altogether. After all, how can there be any good, public role models in this area, if the Christians are sitting out of the game? choosing to complain instead?

    I also know the "technical jargon" the preachers use by claiming there is a difference between something being "advised against" or being "a sin" But why is it that poor attitude and poor sportsmanship cannot be "advised against" instead of the entire sport?

    And let me ask you this: If one from your church were to go against this "advise" by choosing to participate in a sport that was "advised against" -in your experience, how would that be handled?

    In MY experience, that one was gossiped about and ostercised from the group, looked down on, shunned, spoken to about thier "disobedience" and "bad example to the world and other christians" First by the ones close to them, then by a preacher, then by several preachers, then brought before the congregation to repent.

    That is much, much more than "advise" my friend.

    ReplyDelete
  32. anon 6:42
    I am glad they have not been a problem for you, but apparantly they have for others. You can "cut them some slack" if you want to, but dont expect others, with different experiences than you, do follow you.

    ReplyDelete
  33. So the bible clearly instructs us to "not look down on who does not" do as we do, and "not condemn the man who does" something we consider a sin for ourselves? (romans 14:3)

    Imagine what a wonderful, Holy Spirit filled world we could live in, if this were lived out by all those who call themselves Christians! No more endless arguing about lists of do's and don'ts, rights and wrongs... For "God has accepted him" (both) and "to his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand."

    I dont think the ideal of a unified christian religion across the world is that far fetched, after all. Especially when God himself instructed us how to do it. We just need to put away our pride that says we have to be right for everyone, and that we all have to be cookie cutter images of each other.

    Not each other, jsut God.

    ReplyDelete
  34. "considering" not "condiering"

    ReplyDelete
  35. I think the point Paul is making in Romans 14 is that our decision whether or not to do something is not based upon whether it is of itslef right or wrong, but how it affects our faith or the faith of those around us.

    When condiering organized sports we can use this same guidance: are we playing to bring glory to ourselves (sinful) or to foster goodwill, teamwork, and personal development, and in so doing bring glory to God (righteous)? If the former, then participating may be your downfall. If the latter, then go into it with fervor! The sport itself is neither evil nor good; it is the spirit in which we approach it that is evil or good. This is what Paul is trying to explain.

    ReplyDelete
  36. Thank you for being able to sum it up so nicely! That is very much what I was trying to say.

    So for a church to say the activity itself is wrong for the entire congregation is not biblical. They should be preaching about our spirit and our faith, not individual items. Especially because they do not know each one's heart; I can go see them for "advice" but they will only know what I tell them and he general downfalls of men; not neccessarily me.

    ReplyDelete
  37. sorry... "THE general downfalls of men;"

    ReplyDelete
  38. Yes, the preaching should be about the problem, not the "carton" it comes in. I can be just as proud of the delicious dinner I cooked, as my son is about winning a game or race. If it's pride & glory we are looking for, it'll be there regardless of our activities... we can even be proud of "not being proud".
    AnotherALCer

    ReplyDelete
  39. LLLreader sez: Yes, ALCer--one time Free said she had "never seen people who were so proud to be humble".

    ReplyDelete
  40. Free has a wonderful way with words. Ive noticed that with a lot of these discussions about people's different beliefs, it can be very difficult to figure out what the "core" issue really is. There is so much focus on, say sports, that the issues of the Holy Spirit, individual sin/s are hard to see. Its also sometimes also hard to remember that the underlying issues are more important the the "carton"

    ReplyDelete
  41. RWB here...

    I don't know why I waste my time trying to explain something here...it just gets twisted around to say something else in the next 5 posts.

    Ok the sports: Sports is not a sin...we DO play them...just not in the organized fashion. It is all the things that come with them that can be temptation and sin. The best way to avoid temptation and sin is to avoid situations, people, or places that produce those temptations and sin. This is a fine line (narrow maybe) to walk...we must live and work in this world so as to be an example unto it without participating in the worldly things of it. As far as the "worldly" things go, I trusted and obeyed my natural parents and watched their example as a literal child and I will continue to trust and obey my spiritual parents for teaching and guidance as a spiritual child, as God through his Holy Spirit gives me that strength.

    hp3: Your real big on this issue of what is from man and from God as almost every post you write has something in it to that effect. How do you determine what comes from a "mans" mouth is from man and not from God? I trust that when the Christians pray as they are asked to before every sermon that what is spoken is from God. Who are you to say what is from man and from God? You are just a "man" right? I don't think I could say that I am of any better or higher understanding than those preachers who read, consider, and study the Word of God and through God's grace and Holy Spirit show us how to apply that to our lives. If we could all do as you apparently can then what would be the need for churches and preachers? We could just crawl into a corner with our Bible and read, know, and understand it all on our own. You have not shown me anything that is taught, preached, spoken, or understood in the OALC that is in contradiction with the Bible. You have through your own "mans" understanding and observance of the faults of the Christians in the OALC, convinced yourself that what we teach is wrong. Also, the whole point of going to the preachers for advice and council on a regular basis is that they would know us from the heart and can give advice based on that. Someone else can see us for who and what we are much better than we can ourselves. It is always easier (for me at least) to see the goodness or faultiness in someone else than in myself.

    Yes it is correct that we can be proud of not being proud. Anybody can...we all carry this weak flesh. I once heard a story of a preacher who was complimented on the wonderful sermon he had just given...his response was: "I know; the devil already told me".

    Nobody is immune to thoughts, feelings, and weaknesses of the mind and flesh...not me...not you.

    Also, hp3 I have read all the posts you have written and have printed all the posts related to the OALC on here out so I can go back and review them periodically to see what has been written. I have read the verses you quoted and considered them. I have responded as I feel necessary and am not ignoring the verses you post. I address what I can as time allows. Be careful on the Bible posting....you might be accused of being a cherry picker!

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  42. WOW!! How could this seriously be such a problem or debate?! It sounds to me like someone by the name of JENNIFER BOHN needs something more important to worry about in her life other than the harmless kids that sit in a parking lot and communicate with one another, at least they are not drinking and driving or vandalizing things. I mean the problem could be alot worse here but its people like Jennifer that need other things in life to worry about. She obviously has no kids or anything else to dwell on. I do know that this wont effect my frequent trips to Fred Meyer so she can gladly take her business elsewhere, Im sure she wont be missed to terribly bad :)

    ReplyDelete
  43. GOLLY!! You are so rite, ANONYMOUS, that this is all about nothing! I mean those harmless kids could be murdering people instead of just blocking traffic and dropping cigarette butts and trash on the ground. In a million years, who will even know that trash was there? Unless it is plastic, which, duh, only the lids are. JENNIFER BOHN should just clean up after those kids since she obviously doesnt have any kids to clean up after. Im sure they will say thank you, JENNIFER and not thanks to god for cleaning up our garbage. That will make her feel good I bet.

    ReplyDelete
  44. RWB,

    if your primary focus in life is to avoid sin at all costs, why not just build a compound like the FLDS? That would be a good way to keep the world from influencing your children's lives. Your group has a lot of hard workers and people in construction so I'm sure you could figure a way to make it work.

    ReplyDelete
  45. Reminds me of the Pharisees in the bible. They were so concerned about sinning that they avoided things even if it was ok, but it MAY cause them to sin. Where do you draw the line. Anything and everything can become a sin, depends on how you use it. RWB, study legalism and spiritual abuse.

    ReplyDelete
  46. RWB here...

    Anon Tue Aug 05 8:26 PM: I don't think you will ever see the OALC "building a compound like the FLDS". I will take a chunk of my last post that addresses this since you apparently missed that part.

    "The best way to avoid temptation and sin is to avoid situations, people, or places that produce those temptations and sin. This is a fine line (narrow maybe) to walk...we must live and work in this world so as to be an example unto it without participating in the worldly things of it."

    I'm sure some of you heard it said in the OALC that we (as Christians, not just OALC'ers!) must stay "a stones throw away" from this world. Far enough away that we are not a part of its doings and cares, but close enough that someone searching could find the living Christianity that is taught, preached, and exemplified by the Christians in the OALC. I say "exemplified" with a bit of a feeling of hypocrisy....I know my example is poor (yes, I know many of you here think this is a false sense of poorness) before my family and the world and that many of you can point to the many faults and shortcomings of the Christians that you have had contact and experience with....partly the objective of this blog apparently.

    Anon Aug 06 7:25 AM: Yes: Where do YOU draw the line? How do YOU know where? I have studied legalism and know it's definition well. If you think, as many others do, that the OALC and it's teachings are legalism and spiritual abuse, that is, in my view, your misguided opinion. You are entitled to it. Legalism is an easy title to place on anybody that views obedience to the law as and important part of our walk with God. While I do agree that the law is preached in the OALC, I disagree that it is preached that the law is emphasized over the grace of God. Faith and faith alone....as it is often said. Read up on "antinomianism". Maybe you will find yourself there.

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  47. Very funny. I guess since I am not OALC I have no morals either.

    ReplyDelete
  48. Hi RWB, you didn't ask me, but I'll answer anyway... I draw the line where I feel the Spirit in me is telling me to draw it. Pray, and ask God, and you'll get an answer. Perhaps it will be when you're reading the Bible or maybe from a sermon or a visit with someone, or you will just know. BUT, my line isn't the same as others, not even my spouse or children. Similar, yes but not the same.
    anotherALCer

    ReplyDelete
  49. RWB here...

    Hello "anotherALCer".....

    Not sure what you are getting at here. My thoughts are: So how is a preacher to preach to a crowd of "you" or what place would a preacher even have in a church of "you"? Church would be a group of "you" all praying and asking for different things. I think this would be result in much confusion. Now if you have a question about something specific to you I think the Holy Spirit can give you an answer through your prayers, but this is not always the best way. Sometimes, especially with soul matters, we need to put these things before someone with a deeper understanding or even just someone separate from our own thoughts, feelings, and emotions who we firmly believe to be Christian.

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  50. Yeah, but how do you really know they're christians, and not just imposters going through the motions?

    And I was the one that suggested the compound. Honestly, wouldn't that make your life a lot easier? Why interact with the world if you don't have to? Your group can become self sufficient so it has to rely very little on "worldlies". So, why wouldn't you do it if you could make it work? It would make your life easier, wouldn't it? I think you should seriously think about it and not take it as a sarcastic comment.

    Think about your kids growing up and not knowing what organized sports even are or what a TV is. Wouldn't it be an OALC'ers dream to not have to deal with possibility of that temptation in their lives? Wouldn't you like to not have your kids ask why they can't be like everyone else? They will grow up only knowing what you teach them and their will be no influence from the world since it's all bad anyway. I seriously think this is the answer to all of your problems and don't know why you wouldn't consider it.

    ReplyDelete
  51. RWB here...

    I didn't take it as a sarcastic comment. I see your point, but you didn't read close enough.

    It's not according to the Bible for a Christian to separate from the world...separate from worldly things, but not separate totally from the world...read my posts again...read my post under the sports topic....I've quoted the relevant Scripture to this...if you don't understand it after that I can't help yah!

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  52. RWB, You bet I bring up the issue of a man vs God deciding what is more important! And when you make comments such as "Now if you have a question about something specific to you I think the Holy Spirit can give you an answer through your prayers, but this is not always the best way." Who would have a deeper understanding of us and our needs than the Holy Spirit????? WHO ARE you following????? That is so unchristianlike I dont even know how to comment!

    Again, you question the place and need for preachers if there is a Holy Spirit... I will answer again: The Holy Spirit speaks to everyone who will listen and there is no hiecharchy of one man over another, there is no one man who can decide for another what is right. Advice is simply one man's thought given to another, not to be taken as a law.

    And you didnt say anything further after I posted my biblical quotes, so how can you say you commented? A discussion is an ongoing process... I asked you to read and I started my quoting by asking you to read the entire context so I wouldnt have to quote the entire bible. Call that cherry picking if you want, but its up to you, and each of us, to read and explore further on our own, and hopefully CONTINUE the discussion. but if you have read the verses and prayed about them, thats great; if more reading keeps you in your same place, then we have nothing further to discuss.

    What makes you think I am trying to convince you the oalc is wrong? If you have found it suitable and right for you, than Im glad God is reaching and teaching you. What I AM trying to convince you of, is that your path is not my path, but there is not one of us right and the other wrong. If you found peace and wonderful things by following your parents advice and it worked for you you, GREAT :) I can accept your story, your choices, your life. Now understand that my path went another direction and I am still following Christ, because your path didnt work for me. Im not trying to convince you of anything except that you and your way are not the only one.

    Gods Peace be with us all.

    ReplyDelete
  53. Oh yes, and to answer your question about how to tell what is from Man and what is from God: well by being familiar with Gods word, of course! And if something is not in the bible, well then its open to interpretation, period. I know the oalc, and it sounds like you, cannot accept that there may be more than one way, more than one answer, but you have shown me nothing in the bible that says the oalc little list of beliefs is scriptural (and quoting LLL doesnt count, sorry) I have tried to show you where it is unscriptural, but you will not comment... I will once again agree to disagree at this point and move on. I am more than done.

    ReplyDelete
  54. The authoritarianism is troubling. There is a better way, RWB. While you may think you back everything up and have all bases covered, there is much inconsistency in what you write. Sometimes I wonder if maybe you don't really feel this way in your gut, and are looking for validation of some kind. Or maybe not.

    At any rate, the important points of faith are missed, and emphasis is misplaced. When God truly and deeply works in your heart, a tenderness and love comes through for all of mankind, and it can't really be hidden even if you try.

    Sports is neither here nor there. Some people like sports, some don't. Keep kids busy, with sports or work. Keep them home-centered. Keep them centered. Too much work, too much play, too much time spent with peers - not good. Stay involved, know what they're doing and who they're with. Focus on the positive (you are doing great!) and not the negative (we must stay away). If you teach them they are on the fringe of society without some good things in their lives to fill their time, they may just end up on the fringe, and not for the better. They don't have to be afraid of the world, they can make the world a better place by who they are, and who you are. Love them and listen to them. You are a picture of God to them - either a frightful father, or a loving one. What will it be?

    ReplyDelete
  55. RWB here...

    Norah please let me know where I have been inconsistent....you say "much inconsistency" so there must me a long list to choose from. I try to show why or how I believe or see something the best I know....of course I don't have all the answers or even the right ones sometimes. All I can do it try.

    Yes, I agree the important points of faith are missed and emphasis is misplaced. I don't control what topics are raised. I can only respond to questions and statements that arise or are made by posters here. My primary goal in posting here is to defend what I see as common misconceptions about the OALC.

    RWB

    ReplyDelete
  56. I've tried RWB and you state your position was already made and you wont respond further. The misplaced emphasis is not on the topics, but on where our eyes look, what our 'daily battles' are about. For example, since we're discussing it, are they about pride or about an activity? About a motivation or an action? About Jesus and his love for us, or the devil and his many traps?

    ReplyDelete
  57. Well, RBW, you can still physically be a part of the world living in your compound. If you think you need to live with worldlies, but not follow the ways of the world, you should at least be making lives better for others, and we all know that the OALC only ministers to themselves, hence the reason they might as well live in a compound.

    Here's another thought to ponder...what if everything you learned from childhood was taken from your brain and you opened up the bible for the first time... how would you interpret the bible? Would you be follownig the traditions you have grown up with in the finnish community? I highly doubt it because you wouldn't know what they were. You would probably interpret the bible in a totally different way since their would be no precedent. Think about that for awhile... I've think their is a problem when churches are based too much on traditions. Do traditions really matter? I think the OALC'ers place too much emphasis on maintaining the traditions of the last few generations, such as still preaching from Laestadius's sermons. What if Laestadius never existed? Would you live the way you do? Do you follow Laestadius's traditions? or do you follow the bible?

    ReplyDelete
  58. An example of inconsistency -

    RWB: "While not right, and in many ways sinful in themselves, all those things like gossip, shunning, and ostracism happen when someone is disobedient and has not taken their part out of a situation. They have chosen to be disobedient. They have chosen to question and not be satisfied with the answer given."

    It seems that you approve of something which is not right, or possibly even sin. And this is because someone has questioned and "not been satisfied with the answer given". So how can you believe something is wrong, RWB, and yet support it?

    ReplyDelete
  59. "When I was a teen it was nothing to see a couple hundred teens light up after church."

    "I'm sure some of you heard it said in the OALC that we (as Christians, not just OALC'ers!) must stay "a stones throw away" from this world. Far enough away that we are not a part of its doings and cares, but close enough that someone searching could find the living Christianity that is taught, preached, and exemplified by the Christians in the OALC."

    "Legalism is an easy title to place on anybody that views obedience to the law as and important part of our walk with God. While I do agree that the law is preached in the OALC, I disagree that it is preached that the law is emphasized over the grace of God."

    These statements all appear as inconsistencies to me, RWB, particularly your statements on the law. You cannot mix law and gospel. Here's Luther, from his commentary on the Galations:

    (Chapter 1)VERSE 7. And would pervert the gospel of Christ.

    "To paraphrase this sentence: "These false apostles do not merely trouble you, they abolish Christ's Gospel. They act as if they were the only true Gospel-preachers. For all that they muddle Law and Gospel. As a result they pervert the Gospel. Either Christ must live and the Law perish, or the Law remains and Christ must perish; Christ and the Law cannot dwell side by side in the conscience. It is either grace or law. To muddle the two is to eliminate the Gospel of Christ entirely."

    It seems a small matter to mingle the Law and Gospel, faith and works, but it creates more mischief than man's brain can conceive. To mix Law and Gospel not only clouds the knowledge of grace, it cuts out Christ altogether."

    ReplyDelete
  60. (I should point out that I have an aversion to smoking, so finding Christ by passing through a cloud of cigarette smoke, or church grounds littered with cigarette butts, doesn't fit into my brain :-), therefore, it's inconsistent to me, personally. I'd be more likely headed away from that church, or any person who thinks smoking is okay)

    ReplyDelete
  61. "Read up on "antinomianism". Maybe you will find yourself there."

    Advocating lawlessness? Come now RWB, that's low. Using that term just means you've reached the end of your own argument and can't support it any longer. In my opinion. :-)

    (just to make clear, my argument isn't with you personally, but with the belief system that you are defending here, and which is more common in many denominations.)

    ReplyDelete
  62. Please answer Norah before me again... I am enjoying not feeling like a main participant :p Although mine is more of a thoughtful response than a question.

    you say, "So how is a preacher to preach to a crowd of "you" or what place would a preacher even have in a church of "you"? Church would be a group of "you" all praying and asking for different things. I think this would be result in much confusion." (I already questioned you on the rest of your 'man is sometimes better than the Holy Spirit' misconception)

    Well, a church of "you" would not be confusing at all because God did not make all of us out of one cookie cutter, and He expects us to be as He created us. We all have different desires, different weaknesses, different purposes here on earth in God's kingdom. There are several verses that pertain to that: maybe start with Corinthians 12:12-31

    So a preacher can easily preach to a church of "you" because the word of God applies to everyone, everywhere, through all of time. The key is the preacher has to stick to the basic concepts that are in the bible and not wander too far off on too many specifics that may not pertain to everyone.
    Corinthians 10:23-11:1

    ReplyDelete
  63. RWB, Rather than preaching against the object...TV, computer/internet, movies, worldly entertainment, why not just cut to the chase and preach what is actually the sin... lust, pride, envy...etc. There will always be an opportunity for the devil to tempt at our weak areas. What I meant by each of us having different lines is this.... Take porn for example, if that is a problem, than the internet might be too, but getting rid of the internet isn't going to solve the issue. If it's pride, well that comes in many, many areas and it would be impossible to rid ourselves of all of them. ( the Amish try hard, but I can bet they haven't succeeded). And even in those 2 areas, just because I decide the internet is out doesnt' mean that it is taboo for everyone else. Maybe they have a better filter or whatever. Or how about pride, I KNOW that I have just as much or more when it comes to the way I'm dressed, or what my house looks like, that my kids have with sports. (CAn't invite anyone over today, the house isn't clean, and I don't have any fresh baked goodies! Tell me that isn't pride rearing it s ugly head!!). What I choose to allow for myself is, different than that of my spouse (men and women I think are tempted in very different areas) Preach the sin, not the ways one will find it, as you will NEVER cover all of them for each individual. Sure we need to have and give advice that is one of our "jobs" as Christians is to help each other. But that is HELP, not condemn, or "scare" into heaven.
    I can bet, that most times the ones that are seen as transgressing in the more obvious ares, already know that they are, and need to hear that Christ forgave them and be encouraged to believe that.

    HOpe that wasn't too long and discombobulated! :)
    anotherALCer

    ReplyDelete
  64. Hi bloggers, long time no post - I guess I had to take a break. Now I have a few spare minutes and decided to jump into the fray.
    I recently attended church (OALC) and try as I might, I could not maintain my concentration thru the entire (boring, redundant) sermon. But I did come away with this to ponder: What was the impact of hearing from the pulpit, Sunday after Sunday, that "The World" wants to "lap our blood and tear our flesh?"
    There are a number of things one can conclude from that: first, "The World" hates us. Why? Why would they care? What if it is not true, that "The World" hates us? And why was LLL so insistent, using such gruesome imagery?
    Second, if "The World" hates us, then we have no obligation to go out into the world to serve the poor, heal the sick, set the captives free, etc. We owe nothing to "The World," because they hate us. I suspect this is at the root of the failure of the OALC to "officially" extend itself to help groups outside its own (very small) circle - at least as far as I was ever aware. If anyone has examples to the contrary, I'm all ears. (There are always individual exceptions, of course. And I am not counting preaching to them, as that was not on the list of admonitions to which I refer).
    Whenever anyone says "The World hates us" I want to say "Rubbish. Don't delude yourself. It is yet another example of OALC arrogance, that you think you are so important in the scheme of things that The World would go to the trouble of singling you out for hatred." So why was LLL so hung up on this? Many Trails Home

    ReplyDelete