"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Who Will Sing for Me When I Die?

Monday, September 17, 2012

Who Will Sing for Me When I Die?

Check out this excellent interview with Hanna Pylvainen about her novel "We Sinners."

It helped me better understand her novel and why some people stay in the church.

Listen all the way to the end of it!

16 comments:

  1. Hanna so accurately communicates the struggles one has, to decide whether to stay or leave. I especially admire how she has dissected the positives and negatives and has somehow managed to make it all seem to make sense. A very nice interview!
    -NWponderer

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  2. Did your church have a phone directory or the ritual of singing for a member, no matter where they lived, after they had died? This is not an OALC tradition. At least it wasn't when i was growing up.
    --Free

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  3. Our church had a phone directory, but just for each local congregation. It was a bit funny, but there were people who never showed up, or who moved far away years ago, and they kept those people in it. However, when I quit going just 3-4 months, my relatives made a big point to have me REMOVED from the church list. It is a fairly large congregation and not everyone knows one another by name. Before I really decided to quit, my son came home with the new directory and I found I had been erased. I took it as a big hint that deep down, they wanted me gone. I had raised way too many uncomfortable questions for them.

    A completely different point here. I noticed that in Hanna's book, the LLC'ers call the youth gathering "haps." I wondered if that was sort of slang for "happening" or something. In the FALC, I've heard it called "kyds." In other groups, I've heard it called "the get-together."

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  4. We do have a directory for all of the US and Canada. People are very warm and welcoming to other believers, and one could be visiting somewhere and not really know the persons in the directory, (most names are familiar to most LLCers) but call them for a visit and leave as dear friends. And yes, we sing for those who have passed. Seems to be a regular Sunday morning occurence these days. I have considered this as I am sitting on the fence. If I die and have denied my faith, then there will be this very mournful funeral and I will have gone to hell. However, I can stay and pretend and it will be a sad but joyous celebration as I have reached my eternal home.
    Haps is indeed short for 'happenings'. In the summer, volleyball and outdoor activities are the norm, and a couple evenings a week at homes for fellowship and singing.
    There is much to appreciate, but so many times one feels constrained and oppressed and stripped of individuality.
    -NWponderer

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    1. NWponderer, you express very well the difficulties and conflicted thoughts of the reluctant doubter. There is much to value in the church: the large families with all the support and love they can provide (if you are fortunate enough to have that; I was not), the ready familiarity with other in-group members that you mention, and the assurance (to others at least, if not yourself) that you will reach the desired destination after death. It can be a cozy, familiar, safe place. But, as you also say, it can be oppressive.

      This is one aspect of Hanna’s book I can definitely relate to, the sense of loss that is involved with leaving one’s childhood faith. The church is aware of this attraction, reminding service attendees of Peter’s statement, “Lord, it is good for us to be here.” I remember the feeling, though I also remember all too well the sense of being a fish out of water, never quite fitting in, wondering what on earth I was doing there. (An aside: The “good to be here” usage of the Matthew 17:4 passage is quite a stretch, as in so many other cases. Sitting on benches in a big room with a hundred or so familiar companions, half of them relatives of some kind, listening to misinformed preachers pick their way through some well-worn Bible text is hardly the same as standing on a mountain watching Jesus shine as the sun and chat with a couple of long-dead Old Testament prophets.)

      All I can say is, know that you are not alone. Leaving can be liberating, and I personally have never felt better since doing so. But as you ponder things from your uneasy vantage point astride that fence, remember that many of the people you see at church are wondering the same things you are, or even flat-out disbelieving much of what is preached. One friend of mine who left some time back says he’s heard a lot of people say they aren’t buying about 90% of what the preachers say. They stay in it for the social structure and that remaining 10%. It wouldn’t surprise me that much at all.

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    2. I am sure that there are those who TRULY believe. I know there are others like me, wanting the grace but not the rigid set of 'rules'. (Yes, I know there are not do's and don'ts but the 'spirit' has revealed these to be wrong)
      Also, if not for the birth control stance, the LLC would be a mere fraction of what it is today, as there are very few converts, probably due to the stringent lifestyle, difficult to adhere to unless one is brought up in it.
      Then there are the children. One must consider the consequences of disrupting their life. -NWponderer

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  5. LLLreader here--I got to thinking about who will sing for me at my funeral. I actually believe I might draw a fairly good size crowd. It wouldn't be anything on the scale of the OALC funerals, but folks who would show up are the ones that are close to me, care for me, and know me. They know my feeling, my beliefs, my dreams, and my fears. It took some effort to find these people over the years, but the payoff is knowing that those that come to pay their respects are not there simply because we belong to the same church. I always have problems with the OALC funerals. Even when a member dies they are treated as though they are insignificant. Nothing is said about them, other then reading the obit. The preacher will talk about unworthy he is and ask for prayers for himself and his family. Even in death the OALC member is stripped of value as a person. I haven't heard of singing for those that have passed, must be in other branches. One of the big fears of leaving the church is that one will be alone in the world. That is not true. You don't atomatically have a support group, but you will gradually find people who will care about you. How hard it must be to be taught to doubt yourself, to not value yourself, and then have to start over finding new companions. They are many good people in the world, neighbors, classmates, people at work, new churches, clubs--just pull up your socks and go find them. Easy to say, hard to do. But it can be done.

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  6. Thanks for the info, NWponderer. I wish the OALC had a phone directory, because it would be fun to see how many people have my family names in each OALC "locality," as they call them. Our family has multiplied exponentially in four generations, no thanks to me.

    Yes, there are many good people in the world and LLLreader, you are one of them! You have given us many words of wisdom over the years. Thank you. I think you would agree that the fastest way to build a support group is to support others.

    As for who will sing for me when I die? My OALC family boycotted my wedding, so I doubt they will be there for my death, and I can live with that. But my chosen family will sing, and I even have an idea of what they will sing, because I've prepared a song list called "For My Funeral" in my iTunes Library. No dirges on it!

    One of the songs is "You Are My Sunshine." If I go before you do, please sing it for me!

    --Free

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  7. Free said, "My OALC family boycotted my wedding, so I doubt they will be there for my death, and I can live with that." How strange as some of the Old Apostolic Lutheran speakers will allow a divorced outsider to marry a member because the former outsider's divorce was considered to have been done in 'unbelief'. Therefore they are allowed to remarry with the apparant blessings of the church. Old AP

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  8. Old AP, does the OALC view "worldly" weddings AND divorces as "not legitimate"? I don't know.

    NWponderer, a reader of this blog has contacted me to say that if you are interested in talking to other LLC members who have left the church, there is a support group online. They are careful to maintain confidentiality, given the potentially undesirable consequences of exposure. Just email me (extoots at gmail dot com) with your contact information and I'll send it to her.

    --Free

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    1. Thank you, I had heard there was something of the sort, and had actually searched for it to no avail. -NWponderer

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    2. Free....there seems to be a variety of beliefs about divorce & remarriage within each of the Apostolic Lutheran groups as everyone from the strictist Old Apostolic up thru the most liberal Independent AP's have had to deal with this issue. So naturally there seems to be a wide variety of interpretations. From what I saw the Old Apostolics excused divorce as long as it took place by an outsider before they joined the Old Apostolic Lutherans as a person was considered in 'unbelief' previously. By joining the Old Apostolic Lutheran their sins were 'washed away.' There seems to be a divergence of opinions even amongst speakers in each group. Some Apostolic women have left their husbands because of beatings and/or verbal abuse but then they are told that if they divorce they can on remarry their abusive partner. Infidelity has happened & there have been varying beliefs about what the innocent partner should do. Some people I knew secretly gloated over the details when some one got divorced...until the issue hit their own home. With so many young people getting married there is bound to be a host of accompanying problems given the stresses of marriage and raising children. I wish the solutions were simple. Old AP

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  9. The whole divorce and remarriage phenomenon! In the 1980s, there was a family, including a preacher, who were really focusing on the whole divorce and remarriage issue, going as far as to refuse to greet remarried members of the church. The ironic part was they had a brother who married a divorced woman, and their logic was she was divorced before she converted. (By the way she is a very lovely person). By that logic, it would seem, unbelievers are then incapable of sin because they don't know any better? In any case, I also divorced and remarried. One preacher told me it was okay, because my divorce happened as a result of my spouse's infidelity, but members of my family disagreed. I was supposed to stay single forever, and one of them went so far as to shun my husband-to-be. I got a lot of mixed messages about my remarriage--was told I should get married by a justice of the peace, so when I began making those arrangements, was then told by the same person it had to be a minister, just go to his house and no need to include others. I began making those arrangements for the same relative's satisfaction, and she then complained members of my family would feel excluded. So I arranged a small wedding of about 50 people, immediately family only and close friends, only to overhear the SAME RELATIVE complain that she thought it might be wrong that I had a wedding, and I ought to have just gone to a minister's house or a justice of the peace. Shortly after that, I left the church. I realized no matter what I did, it would always be considered wrong. Sometimes I feel like a fish out of water everywhere, but I have found that I now cry significantly less than I used to.

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    1. I think as Laestadians, we got used to complying with what others expected of us or wanted us to do because the social pressure for us to conform was so great. And if you did not conform, there was always the risk of someone deciding to confront you about your sin or rebelliousness, as they perceived it. You could quickly find yourself dealing with a large group of believers determined to make you see the light. The possibility of that happening is enough to make most people keep their differing opinions under wraps.

      One of the best things about leaving is that I make the decisions that are right for me without worrying about who's going to think what about my choices. And like you, anon 6:23, I cry a whole lot less than I used to. I don't sweat the small stuff. Life is good.

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  10. LLLreader again-- anon 6:23 I would agree crying "significantly less" is a very good thing. What continues to amaze me is how much power we used to give other people. They are just people, with their own agendas, hangups,joys,and sorrows.

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  11. The OALC in Finland sometimes sing for those who have passed away. In those cases usually the song leader says "now we'll sing hymn number xx to the memory of NN who has passed away". They kind of dedicate one of the hymns sung during the service to the member who has passed away. It's part of the "express canonization" process, but not a necessary part. It's enough if the preacher proclaims that the one who has died now is in heaven. But alas, if he's not clear in his message... :)

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