"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Not Everything Has Been Said

Tuesday, March 15, 2005

Not Everything Has Been Said

Quoted below is a new post from Anonymous. Let me say how sorry I am about your mom. How is your dad doing now?

No, no--not everything has been said. I was able to leave the church, and not look back (it only took a few years of therapy). Only now, reading these messages am I able to realize what I am really mad about--and that's my Mom's life. She was a lovely women, died way to early. She was an outsider and told me once that her mother-in-law said it wasn't a true marraige because she hadn't been born into the church, but came in when she married Dad. I think that was a comment that hurt her deeply. She tried her whole life to measure up. I believe Dad's family did love her--she was a very giving, kind women. But, I know that struggle was always there. She really wanted me to have piano lessons, but couldn't. There was the ongoing struggle to keep her family appeased, Dad's family appeased--and raise us kids to toe the line enough to keep from being critized by the church. We figured it out early--who you could talk to about TV and such--and who you had to hide things from. She could have had such a happier life. I'm so sad for her. The remarkable thing is--Dad left the church after she died.

25 comments:

  1. My Dad is a very old man now. He reads the Bible and studies and questions. He is at great peace with himself and with the Lord. I haven't brought myself to ask him how he thinks it would have been if he would have left earlier. I'm sure he regrets it. His Dad was a preacher and so there was extra pressure on him. He married an "outsider" and that was the springboard for him to leave. I was taught in conformation that the worst sin a church member could commit was to marry outside the church. THAT sure tends to keep folks in the fold.

    ReplyDelete
  2. I am so amazed at the mutual experiences us exaps are having. I have only known about this site for a few weeks. Just read some of the terms Aps use--posted in Oct.-- "dead faith churches" and such. My favorite of all time is "rolling in the filth of the sin cursed earth". I'm from Battle Ground--where are some of the other posters from? Thanks-thanks-thanks!

    ReplyDelete
  3. My message is to anonymous - that must have been quite a confirmation school although by deduction when you say your father is a "VERY old man now" must mean that you are also somewhat old and your memories have clouded with time. I also went to confirmation school and KNOW that being married to an "outsider" was discouraged but NOT the WORST SIN. If it isn't true, don't write it!!!

    Regarding your father, ask him, isn't that what a father is for, to share, to hurt, to comfort and grow together. I always knew I would leave the church, college didn't do that as people told me it would, but....I have no regrets growing up in the OALC - the reason being, I choose to take the good that can be found there and not even dwell on the negatives. If I include the negatives in my life, I won't have moved far from the people who believe I will never have a chance to enter the gates of heaven they are going to. And I say to those people, I am at peace that we will be in different heavens and I am saddened that you are so misguided that you didn't understand - "God sent Jesus to die for ALL of our sins", even mine although I no longer am an OALC.
    ~~ILovLiving

    ReplyDelete
  4. Free-You do a wonderful job hosting this blog. I believe your willingness to share and the eloquent way in which you communicate is a true gift. I know for a fact you are and have been helping former OALC members to find comfort knowing there are others who share similar feelings and experiences. Keep up the good work; you have a great ministry in place.

    ReplyDelete
  5. Anonymous, thank you for your kind words.

    ILovLiving, I almost deleted your comments because they seem so mean-spirited. It seems you are accusing a poster of lying, and then of dwelling on the negatives of the OALC. Isn't this a bit smug? You were not there at his/her "conformation" class (great pun, anonymous). And while you may have no regrets about the OALC, many of us do, and this is a good place to share them and get support. Wounds can't be disinfected if they're denied.

    ReplyDelete
  6. All right, my ire has sufficiently been raised to precipitate a post.

    What is with denying other people's experience, essentially calling them a liar????

    Sounds like pretending everything in the past was peachy isn't working out so well.

    Most certainly a wound has to be identified to be disinfected. Cleansed with a hefty dose of truth.

    It is interesting that you are at peace considering being in different heavens, but the Bible that I am reading only contains one heaven, and one way to get there. It is out of love and concern and a desperate desire for people to embrace my Jesus before it's too late that I speak out against the schemes of the enemy.

    God bless you, friend. Let Him completely set you free. (It's hard work, but entirely worth it.

    ReplyDelete
  7. ...AND another thing, you only have to be in the OALC four or five times before you realize there is complete inconsistency...

    It stems from the sentence, "How have we been taught?" Everything in essence snowballs by word of mouth (ever play the telephone game?).

    I believe nearly anything I hear someone relate that they've heard there, because they are free to say anything.

    ReplyDelete
  8. Here is a message for ILovLiving. Boy Howdy--I think some of the negative Ap attitude has sure stuck with you. In Rip School (old slang term) one of the old preachers went around to each of the kids, asking what the worst sin was--we all gave different answers. Then he announced that it was marrying outside the church. I went home and talked to my Mom about it, discussed it on the phone with friends, called an aunt etc. It has stuck in my mind because it was such a strange idea to me. So, let's knock off the judgment--it happened. In addition. this is a site where we talk about a childhood that wasn't normal. We managed it with different levels of ability. For some of us it takes a long time to process certain childhood experiences. Being in a safe place, like this one, to express some of the conflicts we feel is a very liberating experience. I'm happy for you IlovLife that you don't carry any scars--but some of us do. I have many relatives still in the church and I have wonderful relationships with most of them. There are some beautiful, loving people there--.

    ReplyDelete
  9. Here is a message for ILovLiving. Boy Howdy--I think some of the negative Ap attitude has sure stuck with you. In Rip School (old slang term) one of the old preachers went around to each of the kids, asking what the worst sin was--we all gave different answers. Then he announced that it was marrying outside the church. I went home and talked to my Mom about it, discussed it on the phone with friends, called an aunt etc. It has stuck in my mind because it was such a strange idea to me. So, let's knock off the judgment--it happened. In addition. this is a site where we talk about a childhood that wasn't normal. We managed it with different levels of ability. For some of us it takes a long time to process certain childhood experiences. Being in a safe place, like this one, to express some of the conflicts we feel is a very liberating experience. I'm happy for you IlovLife that you don't carry any scars--but some of us do. I have many relatives still in the church and I have wonderful relationships with most of them. There are some beautiful, loving people there--.

    ReplyDelete
  10. I'm not finished--. Although there are people, especially my relatives, whom I love dearly in the church--there is an element of meanness in some of the members, gossip and such. About my Dad--because of my love for him I choose which things about the past I discuss with him. I have respect for him and I will not burden his heart. There might be a time to talk about it, or there may not. It really doesn't matter.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Dear Anonymous
    Your comment of not wanting to burden your dad's heart hit the nail on the head. My family knows my decision. I refuse to keep beating my drum with them because I would rather have a less than honest relationship with them that can bring some family closeness than for me to constantly state my mind, quiz them about the what the bible "really" says, etc. They know where I stand. For now we will have the relationship that we do. Thats better then folks that never speak to there families just because they don't believe the same or agree on everything. Life isn't meant to be a battle. I also agree that gossip is a real problem. Isn't that why we are warned about it in Bible?
    Unchained but still connected......

    ReplyDelete
  12. Unchained again here.....
    Isn't it our human nature to put price tags on sin as that old preacher asked you all to do? One of the most dificult things for all of us: Apostolics, ex-apostolics, Baptists, Catholics, Assemblys of God......everyone....is to really understand that in God's eyes sin is sin is sin. All sin is an abomination to Him. We all think that most of our sins are penny or nickle sins but we see all the other people with their dollar sins. Just a thought.

    ReplyDelete
  13. Unchained expressed an important idea. When I see my relatives I don't have to beat them over the head with my beliefs. They don't do it to me, so we have honest relationships---I believe THIS, you believe THAT--amen. You don't lose in a relationship where beliefs are different, as long as respect is being shown. But, I'm a lucky one--I know others who are always having to defend themselves-who have families that have turned against them because they left the church. That is heartbreaking. Imagine the power of that church is such that a mother will abandon a grown child who has different religious beliefs. So sad.

    ReplyDelete
  14. With the exception of the initial bully-like comments, I miss this kind of spicy discussion!! : )

    ReplyDelete
  15. It gets spicy it seems when people start bringing the Word into it or their own experiences. Otherwise, it is not spicy.

    ReplyDelete
  16. As with the anonymous poster above, I feel blessed when I see my relatives and we still get along although we know our beliefs are different. I do think it is important, though, that when they bring it up, I'm very clear on how my beliefs are now different from the OALCs. I never truly believed they'd turn their backs when I left the OALC, but knew the possibilty was there. What breaks my heart is their worry about my soul's salvation now that I've left. I gently tell them that it's their's I'm worried about. I believe in my heart it will be more difficult for the majority of the OALCers to be saved because of their blind reliance on the words of the preachers rather than doing as the Bible says--putting the words of the preachers/teachers alongside the Bible to make sure they agree. So much of what was preached there was a distorted view to fit the OALC, and when compared to the actual biblical text, just doesn't jive. The Bible tells us to turn away from those teachings, but the OALC says to believe the preachers and elders words as if coming from God... My heart aches for those whose trust is still in men there, and I pray for their eyes to be opened.
    Wishing you all God's peace and blessings always

    Thankful I have His Word

    ReplyDelete
  17. I'm pasting an interesting post I found on pasty.com that I hope might generate some conversation. It is so frustrating how those of us who have left are "evil powers" when we have the audacity to speak out. I wish I knew the right way to reach them with God's love...

    "By Sofia L, Norway on Monday, October 11, 2004 - 06:06 pm:
    I would like to add a message to the discussion of the picture of the Apostolic Church of Pine Street. The picture was posted a couple of years ago, and led to a discussion about the OALC.
    First of all, BYRON JOLMA, if you ever read this, please contact "Spiderwoman." Second, thanx a LOT to the one who called himself/herself "Unworthy" - since you've understood the teachings right.
    I'm myself a member of the OALC of Norway, but i was brought up inside the church in Sweden, and would like to come in touch with other Christian brothers and sisters in the States.
    To all - Be in God's Peace, and welcome to Scandinavia, and the Lapland. May God give us all strength to carry on, and not listen to all those evil powers of the world. let us all pray that we will remain humble and obey to the right doctrines. To all of you whom left the narrow road, may God have mercy upon you.. "

    Folks, how do we respond to this and help them see we finally found our way TO Him?

    ReplyDelete
  18. During these years I have been out of the church I have never been able to respond to anyone who starts talking to me about being lost from the one true faith. I sort of shuffle my feet and mumble something. I realize now that I have been giving the impression that I am guilty! I have always hated confrontation, but recognize that by the way I am acting I am just giving those poor souls the impression that they are right. I am going to swear that I will stop this behavior. The Lord has opened my eyes to the danger of blindly following the traditions and rules made up by a few men. I have to share this with them in a brave and kind way. I have just always felt so alone, I didn't realize how many kindred souls there are out there. Maybe the best way to respond is to just KEEP saying "I found my way to Him".

    ReplyDelete
  19. What works best for me is to mind my own business, be polite, and not discuss my leaving the church. Very few OALCers have even inquired, much less kept in touch at all. It's difficult to have a discussion with folks who are always right and are not willing to consider other's experiences. If it were any other way, perhaps I would not have left!

    ReplyDelete
  20. The hardest thing in casual conversations for me to bite my tongue about (and perhaps I shouldn't) is that they only see the world from their tiny lens. The casual references to "Christians" as only their church members and the way that they are free to bring up church activities and such, but I am expected to act like I don't even attend a church.
    Thankfully there are a few people that are comfortable with me being me provided I don't push the envelope too much, but it took time and love to get there.

    ReplyDelete
  21. PS- One time my husband and I had the hardest time not bursting out in laughter. The discussion was about Alaska, and someone calmly stated that there were no Christians in Anchorage.
    We looked at each other like, really??? Whole city, going to hell. Did you witness while you were there?

    ReplyDelete
  22. I sense a lot of that in conversation, If I mention a sporting event or seeing something on the news or an activity/sport my children are participating in that is "a sin", I pretty much get ignored as if them acknowledging or showing interest in these things would make them guilty of committing these horrific acts themselves. Not that it's a big deal or unexpected, just doesn't lend itself to a real pleasant two way conversation especially for our "worldy" spouses and children.

    ReplyDelete
  23. The OALCers typically say whatever they want to say, and if that includes rebuke and criticism, then so be it - it's their "duty" to remind you of your shortcomings. They would feel guilty later if they did not. But those of us on the outside typically use discretion, and are careful what we say, so that we're not offensive. Who is more caring here? They would say that they "care" about your soul's salvation. I don't think so. They've learned this behavior and quite possibly don't even think of how it comes across to others.

    ReplyDelete
  24. Hi, I belong to the ALC church so my experience is somewhat different than all of yours, but not completely. One of the problems we have in my opinion is allowing just about anyone to preach, teach, minister etc. Thus you will get all sorts of opinions being "taught" as the truth. Many people I have talked to experienced much of what I did... the rules, the mixed up message of the forgiveness of sins, etc. BUT there were also those who escaped all that and were simply taught what the Bible says on salvation, being a Christian etc. It depended where you grew up, and/or what your parents believed. Unfortunately, way too many s thought it was okay to go to church, take the good and leave the bad. Talk about creating Confusion.
    I still attend the ALC, there have been some major changes in the past few years (all for the better in my opinion!). Though there are still issues that need worked out. Perhaps though that will still happen. I see many, many older people changing, and/ or speaking up. We need to keep our Lutheran traditions/styles of worship from becoming mixed up in our salvation.
    I live in an area where there is a large OALC congregation. My children are good friends with some of them. I also have relatives that attend there. I have to say, I see many different ways of life. My children's friends are allowed to watch our tv, they listen to music, but are not allowed to join band, or have a tv. They have computer games and gameboys. They also go to sports events and the movies and one family plays in school sports, while the other family isn't allowed to. Interesting. What I find the most interesting is the reasons the kids give my kids for not being able to do something. The mothers(I haven't met the dads) are very nice people. Friendly, talkative etc. I have never approached Christianity. My relatives are much more strict. But I was raised with a bunch of rules too though, so maybe it runs in the family.
    Anyway I hope I haven't bored you. Just thought you might like an "outsiders" point of view.
    I was also raised with the "there are no Christians here or there etc." Your church was maybe sort of going to get there from here. At least our relatives!! :)

    ReplyDelete