"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Lars Levi's Cousin, Mor Greta

Monday, April 25, 2016

Lars Levi's Cousin, Mor Greta

I stumbled across this fascinating article about Mor Greta, a cousin and contemporary of Lars Levi Laestadius. It helps contextualize the distrust of authority in the North.
Margareta Sophia better known as "Mor Greta" (1804-1883) . . . took part in the movement against the Swedish state church. Mor Greta and the group the “New Readers” protested against usage of the new church books that were introduced in 1819. These manuals gave the priests monopoly on preaching and other church ceremonies, something that was very impractical when emergency baptism was sometimes needed in the north of Sweden and the priest could be miles away. Those who did not obey the law were persecuted; and if it was repeated they were banished for two years. 
Mor Greta and the New Readers protested against that . . .​ were punished, and the police force tried to imprison them. Mor Greta, being a woman, was not imprisoned, but taken to Umeå hospital for the insane as punishment. But the doctor at the hospital did not find anything wrong with her, refused to hospitalize her, and released her immediately.

How did a woman in the north of Sweden dare to oppose the powerful Swedish state church in the 1830s? 
One explanation is that Mor Greta and Nils had eleven children, but five died before the age of one. That must have been a trauma and the family had need for emergency baptism. Before they had been able to do that without a priest present, but after the new churchbooks, that became illegal. The families had to take the newborn from the mother and go (by ski in winter) 10 kilometers to the church and then back for the baptism. Not many newborns survived those journeys.
Read the rest of the article here, and another, in Swedish, here.


  1. This small group of radical pietists explain us the spiritual life of Lars Levi Laestadius.

    Greta Mårtensdotter seemed to be kind of religious extremist.
    Leader of the group was her cousin Pehr Königsson.

    She baptized the child herself, she explained that some
    clothes are sinful

    In her opinion, "no flesh can be holy" if that Book and Hymn Book is used.
    She also understood, that hair comb, if used, is sin, as well as coffee.
    Later Mor Greta alias Margareta Sophia Mårtensdotter explained to a vicar visiting her in 1878, that she had changed her opinions in these previously so important matters.
    They had only been "adiaphoros" used By
    the Devil. Devil had only tried to rob of the principal one, Jesus Christ and the faith, from her.

    Lars Levi Laestadius had a long discussion with her in January
    1844, when he acted as an inpsector there.
    Laestadius held a sermon, in which he took a strong position
    against all kind of spiritual and congrecational exclusivity.

  2. If Laestadian gave such a sermon,it fell on deaf ears, at least it never reached to this country and hasn't yet.

  3. Please use nicknames when commenting.

    It would be nice to have a link to more information about this meeting of the cousins, even if the text is in Finnish or Swedish.

    Here is an excerpt from Warren H. Hepokoski's history of Laestadianism:

    During the inspection in Sorsele, Laestadius again met readers, some of whom were related to his mother.[34] They were divided into two groups. After Laestadius had delivered his sermon, Johan From, the leader of one group, spoke up to complain that the pastor in Sorsele, Anders Fjellner, did not correctly distinguish between law and gospel. The leader of the other group, Pehr Königsson, a cousin of Laestadius, submitted a handwritten document for the King in which he complained that the new church handbook contained doctrines that conflicted with God’s Word and Lutheran doctrine. The two leaders apparently shared the same concern over the prevailing pelagianistic doctrine of justification, but in a discussion held the following day, Laestadius learned that they differed on other issues, such as the use of coffee, tobacco and fashions in clothing. Königsson approved, for example, of the action of Greta Mårtensdotter -- another cousin of Laestadius -- who, motivated by visions and revelations, had cast fashionable items of clothing into fire, which From, who had been present, snatched out of the fire, quoting Joel 2:13: “Rend your heart and not your garments.” He felt that it was better to sell such items and to use the money for some useful purpose.

  4. That quotation is taken from LLL:s official inspection report.
    Form just quits Gretas extremism and behaviour to burn and destroy "sinful clothes" By mentioning that Sentence of
    Joel 2:13.

    Moreover, it has been said, that the reason for Greta Mårtensdotters attitude against the church and the Prayer Book/Gospel Book, was the withdrawal of the old code of exorcism.
    Greta Mårtensdotter also had various revelations concerning her
    role, and she held very strong punishment sermons, straffpredikan.
    This was only a small extremist group of readers, but it influenced much LLL. There were wide discussion on the matter
    in local press:
    "Äro så kallade Nyböckren werkligen orsaken til de separatistiske Läsarnes i Norr- och Westerbotten förtfviflade
    belägenhet?" Sundsvall 1849...
    For example, the readers of Piteå were very strongly build up
    in the Lutheran faith and righteousness doctrin.

    Best to read Wikmark: Lars Levi Laestadius väg till nya födelse.
    Örnsköldsvik 1980

    In Finland there is a good Biography:
    Ojala J: Lars Levi Laestadius, tiedemies ja pappi. 2007. 294 s.
    Large Biblioraphial apparatus.

    Sermon in Sorsele can be found in FBorn Postilla Edition 1-3.
    Maybe also at Lauri Koistinens "Puhtaat saarnat" (Clean sermons).

    White Sheep

    1. Thank you, White Sheep, your perspective and resources are much appreciated.

  5. I am sorry, but never heard that the Book gave the priests monopoly for church services. That is a common knoowledge, that
    it belongs to the office of the minister.
    But, there was a strong Conventikel Placat, which caused that
    the layman preachers were forbidden in the parish to hold
    meetings. It was possible only when a sermon was read from
    a suitable postilla or sermon book.
    My son was baptized in the hospital By a superior nurse, and I am very pleased.
    The state church is for us, not a suppressive monster, but its establishment has given us a certain religious infrastucture, knowledge and many holy moments.
    White Sheep

    1. Thanks White Sheep. This may hold the reasons the Esikoinens or the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church practice is to read a postilla of Lars Levi Laestadius prior to any church service.

  6. The reason there is this life long "sniffing" of everything Laestadian is because the Laestadian movement is a "constipated church", I don't mean that the congregation is sitting in the pews groaning because they can't poop. What I'm talking about is worse then that. The church is constipated by religion. The preacher can only lead the people to church traditions, rituals, and to church made rules, the preacher can also lead the people to the sacraments and to confession and absolution to " clean themselves up" until they sin again. But the Laestadian movement for the most part cannot and will not lead a person to faith in Christ alone, which is the "narrow gate" requirement of God. And the reason. why the church can't? Because the preacher and the church are like " pork barell polititans" they just have to add something to God's salvation plan...Matt

  7. Well, well.
    I must confess, that I am not sniffing the Laestadian heritage, because I am confined to be there without no hope of refreshment.

    I have only intellectual interest on these matters described above.
    However, I would suggest every one to study religion history and Bible in order to get free and find out, what is the real christian life.
    It is so good to get really free, without any bad and bitter feelings. Please, forgive them.
    White Sheep

  8. I am afraid that goes to high or too complicated. I am afraid, that discourse on that matter is too unpleasanto to somebody.

    What is the difference between prejudices and awareness, or
    pure defence?
    I have tried to search for knowledge, the christian truths, because I need a solid basement under my feeth. It is Jesus Christ, of course, but the real faith needs also a bit of
    doctrins in order to save itself, or to defend me from all kind of winds...

    I am not against the christian love.
    The origin of love its not in me, but it is the fruith of faith.
    For me that means, that I cant create or cultiivate that fruit myself, but tis given to me By Holy Ghost, who works in me.
    I have to concentrate in believing Jesus Christ, my Saviour,
    just as I am like this and at the moment.
    I only have to believe, that he has fulfilled and loved more than I can ever do.
    For me doctrin is the way, who shows me path to Jesus Christ.

    But I agree with you, that we must not try to collect all the konwledge, if we loose love at the same time in the process.

    I just wanted to say something, as I know so many ex Laestadians are so bitter. That is bad as that consumes so much energy....
    I did not mean any person specially here. White Sheep

  9. Matt here: I posted what I did for the preachers and those sitting in the pews. They are the ones that need a clue. Churchs that are doctrine preeners and are bound up in religion, they actually prevent their people from getting saved. White sheep said, he wants his faith to have doctrine. God only wants that you know that you are a sinner, and the object of your faith must be Jesus Christ and Him crucified, and that's it. Nothing else needed and nothing else accepted....Matt

    1. Yes.
      Why you are so disappointed with your previous religious life and experiences, if that is so easy you describe and say to White Sheep? The true meaning of the beautiful sentence "Jesus only" seems to be very difficult to practise in one's real life?
      And so many get lost?
      What means Paul in Galatians 1:8? What is "another Gospel?".
      I think, even that piece of advice you wanted to introduce
      me, even that is a doctrin.
      As I have been told, that learned discussions are not
      allowed in this forum, I just wish you a nice week end and
      Labour day.
      White Sheep

    2. For me, its easy to believe, that Free has found her peace and freedom.
      We can be interested at Laestadianism as cultural
      phenomene, without hard feelings.
      Most of the people do not act like that, they just want to repeat the past life in their memory and live with their negative feelings. That takes energy.
      White Sheep

  10. white sheep: there is a simple principal that is true both in the natural and the spiritual, and it involves capacity or the lack of it.
    If you fill yourself up eating a meal, you probably do not have the capacity for dessert. In the spiritual, Apostolic Lutherans and Laestadians and Lutherans and Catholics and others have filled themselves up with religion and church works and Luthers and Laestadians works and writings that they do not have the capacity to trust in Jesus Cheist alone..its just that simple,but almost impossible,because the church just got to add their favorite junk. Nobody has the ability to get saved by themselves, but the religious person has lost the capacity to just trust in Christ alone. That's why the term "born again" is not used in Laestadian movement churchs, or the Catholic church,thats because they are not. They are bound up in religion and don't understand that. The Bible say's , if you add anything to the gospel that Paul preached,you have fallen from grace and Christ profit you nothing...that's the problem, Christ profit you nothing, if you need your doctrine plus what Jesus accomplished on the cross....anyway I'm done and won't post again for a long time.
    the down and out drunk has a easier time getting saved and born again,because he has no religious hang ups,and has some capacity to trust in Jesus alone....Matt be gone

  11. Okay. You seem to be a lonesome cowboy and far a way from home...
    You are missing nothing...

    White Sheep

  12. It was a pleasant surprise for me to find this blog! I find that many topics that are a painful reality to believers who are forced to blindly trust and obey the elders doctrines, are considered to be "taboos" and are simply not discussed among the OALC believers! However, there is plenty of gossip and mistrust, caused by fearof men! By my own choice I've removed myself from the Laestadian movements in the Americas. This is mainly due to a much closer relationship with the church of my origins, the Finnish Firstborn. I'm following the developments between the state church and the firstborn very closely and am glad that a discussion is taking place in the Americas also. Thank you! It's very comforting to see that such divisive issues can be discussed tactfully and with respect. This is not the case in Finland, especially in open media. It's quite upsetting to read the disrespectful comments that the opposing parties are expressing.

    1. The previous comment would fit better in the blog entry regarding the sacraments... My apologies! "The same"

    2. No problem. Thanks for visiting!

  13. The Firstborn Laestadian movement in Finland is now divided in
    two parts.
    Its better to have no discussion with those who want to establish the new church, but at the same time continue their
    membership in the Finnish Lutheran Church.

    1. Please use a nickname when commenting.

  14. That is true. Firstborns are in two different groups after the meeting held on 30th April.
    One part wants to worship congregation and follow the word of the Elders, another part will hold firmly in the word of God.

    This splitting is not caused By act which opened the ministry to females in the Lutheran Church. It did not have much influence on the daily spritual life of the Firstborn Laestadians.
    The issue is the Bible and the Lutheran doctrin. The issue is, how to live as a christian, like a autumn leaf swept By the wind here and there, or stand on the bed rock Jesus Christ.
    This is the final stage in the history of religious movement,
    which has devoted more individuals as Jesus. In result, the teaching is more like a potpourri than reliable Biblical and confessional teaching. Most of the major preachers do not
    merit the name of minister, so ignorant they are.

    Those who keep on going to the Lutheran Church, they are called traditionalist. They did not want any change.
    They are now alone, but they still have the word of God.
    Those, who want to rob sacraments from the Church, still
    being there as a member, even breaking the canonic rules and law, they believe every single word dropping from the lips of the Elders.
    Now, Hagar stays, holding the premises and using the bad language, Sarah prays God for mercy.
    In God we trust. White Sheep

  15. White Sheep. I remember that story of Hagar and Ishmael being used a number of times as an analogy about those who have left the true faith and who are now in bondage to sin and the devil. It seemed like that each group kept that story on standby to use against any 'heretical' group that splintered off. Old AP

    1. Yes, you have your memories.

      "abusus non tollit usum"
      "misuse does not remove use"

      White Sheep

  16. White Sheep, the problem has been the misuse of so many canned expressions and beliefs by each group who used the same arguments and thought processes to cause a schism or doctrinal split....and then claim they were the 'right' group. It is interesting to note how you stated that one should not live, "By the wind here and there, (but) stand on the bed rock Jesus Christ". Chances are that if you divide your new group will remain basically Laestadian in outlook and beliefs based upon my observations. Most newfound splits end up changing about 10-20% of their overall beliefs and then the new group settles into a new Laestadian comfort zone. In my case I found that standing on the 'bed rock' led to completely leave the whole movement...a 100% change but that is not for everyone of course. Old AP

    1. Sorry, for me the truth is not based on the relativity.
      Who cares, what the other groups say of it?
      There are the Scriptures and the Confession, quite well formed guidelines. Most important is, of course, the Scriptures, norma nomans.

      We do not believe to any exclusive church, but we think, that a congregation withouth confession and having a mixture of various teachings is bound to heretic thinking and its life leads to the same destiny as the Laestadians.
      White Sheep

  17. White Sheep said, "We do not believe to any exclusive church, but we think, that a congregation without confession and having a mixture of various teachings is bound to heretic thinking and its life leads to the same destiny as the Laestadians." White Sheep, you specifically stated that a church must have, 'confession and a mixture of various teachings....' or it will fail. By confession, do you mean confession and absolution as Laestadians teach it or do you mean the Lutheran confessions of faith? With regards to a 'mixture of various teachings' do mean non-Lutheran teachings or what? I mentioned previously that most Laestadian splinter groups usually end up changing only about 10-20% of their core beliefs. From what I have seen most major Laestadian denominational splits happen about once every 40-50 years. If each split were to happen every 40 years and the splinter group was to change its core beliefs 20% for example, it would take about 200 years for the group to completely change itself into something different from that which it originally was. So you can see how real 'change' could take centuries if one continues to cling to the old beliefs versus taking a fresh look at what the Bible really states. Take into consideration that Lars Laestadius passed away long ago and yet many of the controversies of his day are still alive and well 165 years later..... Old AP

  18. Mixture of teachings is a weakness in the congregation.
    Absolute purity is, of course, impossible, but it is the goal - as we see from the Gospels and the Letters.

    We need at least 3 ecumenical confessions and the Lutheran Confession (Confession Augustana, Apologia Augustana, Articuli Schmalkadii etc.) to guide the teachings and the doctrin.

    What does Laestadius to do with this?

    What does it mean LLL passed away 165 years ago?
    In America his doctrines were never fully practised in the churches of Minnesota and Michigan.
    Controversies of LLL? Who cares?

    Absolution we receive from word and sacraments.
    We have traditionally followed at FirstBorn Finnish congregation the Lutheran teaching and understanding in those, even there are
    other opinions, too. They are heretic and without any
    reliable base in the Scriptures.

    If these guidelines reveal themselves to be out of reality, it is not a catastrophe.
    We have here confessional movements, two with pietistic spices and 1-2 confessional Lutheran churches.
    Moreover, the church is not totally dead, even the modern ideas infiltre themselves into it.
    White Sheep

  19. A recent sermon from I guess maybe a few years ago from the Falc from the current minister. The sermon was told by someone to me so the story might not be exact but I'll tell it how I heard it. The story goes something like this that he was driving somewhere one morning and it was a beautiful morning as he had put it , with some clouds in the sky . As he was driving he looked up and saw the word Jesus in the sky. He kept looking and could not believe what he was seeing. It was written perfectly. The interesting part though was that the word Jesus as we spell it or pronounce it was actually spelled as Jesu in the sky. That was the part he could not understand. Then at a later time (not sure when) on a mission trip to Finland and Sweden where there are still some members of the same church he had told them of that story, but that the word Jesus was spelled Jesu and he didn't know why. The people replied that that's how Jesus was pronounced or said back in the Sweden days and that's currently from what I understand how Jesus is still pronounced there. Now I don't know a lot about the whole Lutheran and Levi Lestaudius movement but since I heard that story it had definitely sparked some interest. If you research the word Jesus it also somewhere along the way from the Hebrew language to the Greek language was Jesu before the s was added on the end to get the word we use now known as Jesus. Jesu is also still the vocative for Jesus meaning if you used it in vocative form like you were addressing or calling out to Jesus you would say it as Jesu or gee-zoo. Studying language and changes in Language was not the easiest to understand but just thought sharing this story would be interesting on the topic at hand.

  20. Thank you very much for your nice story.

    I just can eplain you, how Jesus is spelled here.

    In Finnish: Jesus
    In Swedish: Jesus
    in Swedish genetive, it was said in the old days:
    For example: Jesu' blod, (The blood of Jesus)
    För Jesu' Kristi skull (For the sake of Jesus Christ)

    That story you told us, was happened, obviously over 100 years ago, right?

    White Sheep

    1. The story I told you happened just two years ago by the current minister in the Calumet congregation.

    2. Okay, do you know FirstBorns there in Calumet?

      White Sheep

    3. I'm not real educated in this stuff so what do you mean by firstborns?

    4. Firstborns Laestadian Church = The Old Apostolic Lutheran Church of America, supposed to be their name

    5. The church I am referring to where this story was told was the First Apostolic Church which from what I understand is a continuation of the Heidemenn-Tortola group. It was originally on Pine street in Calumet but a new church has since been built in a new location. As far as OALC goes I don't believe they have a church in Calumet if we're thinking of the same church.

    6. I understand you, thank you for your quick response.
      OALC was there in Calumet, when I was a young boy.
      I go to sleep.
      May God bless you.
      Just remember, the Lord Jesus welcomes you when ever you go to him, without any requirements.
      He accepts you and gives you his love in your heart, his love to live as his follower, his love to listen to his
      word, his love to love your neighbour as much he gives your power for it, day By day..,,,,

      White Sheep

  21. White Sheep said, "We need at least 3 ecumenical confessions and the Lutheran Confession (Confession Augustana, Apologia Augustana, Articuli Schmalkadii etc.) to guide the teachings and the doctrine." I would disagree as I have seen that many churches have used these creeds as well as others to usurp the Bible itself. The creeds were originally used to clarify issues of contention at the time they were drawn up. What I have seen repeatedly happen within Lutheranism is that agreement with the creeds becomes the equivalent of having living faith. In the Bible church movement I am now affiliated with the foremost goal is that a person is newborn in Christ and then all those other matters of doctrine etc...are clarified. It is as though Laestadians have everything backward as I recall being fed all kinds of 'understandings about doctrines' and being taught about legalism, sin, guilt etc... and nothing about faith in Christ. I remember a number of Laestadians stating that grace through faith in Christ should not be taught as people would just use that a license to sin. Therefore the prevalent Laestadian belief seemed to be that people should live in a guilt ridden, semi-legalistic mindset to keep them in a sort of mental captivity and fear of obedience to the church traditions and its elders. In contrast, I found that with true Christianity we first come to be born again through faith in Christ and then all things such as doctrine, commandments etc... fall into place. In other words we are under a grace covenant. White Sheep also said, "We have here confessional movements, two with pietistic spices and 1-2 confessional Lutheran churches. Moreover, the church is not totally dead, even the modern ideas infiltrate themselves into it." You mentioned 'pietistic spices'...to me that sounds akin to the 'uusiherranaisets' or 'New Awakenists' as we called them in America. I am not sure if they are one and the same in Finland but I have talked to some of them here in America and they are so mixed up with their ideas that they would be considered mentally disturbed. You mentioned, 'modern ideas infiltrate themselves'. I am not sure what you mean by that. For Laestadians, 'modern ideas' usually meant having a TV, believing that other churches are going to heaven and not being legalistic in general. Old AP

  22. Thanks, Old AP
    It seems to me, that your thinking is strongly bound to various phenomenon around the Laestadianism.
    That is not a wise idea.

    You name "uusherranaisets". That must be "uusheränneet" = New awakenists.
    That Laestadian group is no more existing.

    As for pietistic movements, I speak about various pietistic movemeents inside the Finnish church. None of them is crowded By mentally disturbed persons, as you may guess.

    The oldest of them is existing since 1756, and is today strongly
    bound to Lutheran confession with some pietistic features.
    The youngest of them is The Finnish Evangelical Folk Mission, and its started its work in 1940's.
    We dont see they are crazy, but strongly bound to word and the Confession.
    In the middle there is the Finnish Lutheran Gospel Society, having many ministers and bishops, own meeting houses also,a and strongly bound to the Scriptures and the Confession. It has published a major part of Martin Luthers writings in Finnish and Swedish.

    Moreover, there is Mission Province, a strongly confessional Lutheran movement, which has its own Bishop and slightly scismatic status inside the church. They understand clearly the importance of the office and the ministery, which is not supposed to offer for females.

    I do not know, how much you know the life in Scandinavia, but I can tell you, that a television set is no more a milestone of
    modernism, here.
    By modernism I mean the modern methods and thinking in Bible study, gay-lesbian marriage, female ministers, euthanasy and so on.

    So, what the Laestadians believe and think, has nothing to do with our thinking.
    That is why we say: Confessional rule and teaching is the only solution. How this can be realized, we will see.
    We know, many people value the heritage more than the pure doctrin based on the Scriptures.

    The final true church goes thru all Christian churches.
    The church of Christ is existing even among the spiritualists,
    if they do not deny baptism and the word.
    Of course, a healthy teaching and christianity is the goal, not the spiritualism.
    White Sheep

  23. White Sheep. I am glad that you are seeking to be a true Christian church even though we may disagree on some points. We believe in Biblical baptism which is by immersion. What do you think about that point? In this country the mood and popular media is turning more and more towards open hostility against the Christians. Our President Obama actually has a mixture of beliefs to include: secular humanism, Black Muslim ideas and Liberation Theology and he has been very aggressive in pushing a very anti-Christian, anti-Biblical agenda. Many in academics, the government and the media are very anti-Christian and their goal has been to totally destroy the Judeo-Christian movement in this country with a special focus on any conservative Bible based church. So in general most conservative Christians see open persecution on the horizon. When I was a young boy the Finnish Laestadian elders used to say that this persecution would actually happen some day in my lifetime. So I think they were right. We believe that all of the churches have divided many thousands of times and the Bible states that the true church believers will be refined like gold. In other words the churches will be refined with many fiery trials to separate the chaff from the wheat. The US economy is hollow, corrupt and weak. Many think that there will be a global financial crisis and then they will form a one world government and that will begin the era of church persecution. Old AP

  24. I am not trying to be the church, but I am seeing forward to be in one, if that plan will be realized. I am not in charge for it.

    We Europeans do not understand your way to form political opinions. It is impossible for us.
    It seems you need a president, who is not a politician, but a
    saint. Why? Do you need a person to run your congregation or
    the White House or both?
    If the president of the nation must be a nun or monk, it shall be very difficult to have one, who meeets the requirements.

    If I need a carpenter to repair my house, I would have the professional. I am not interested at his Private thinking about religion.
    You seemed to reject the medical act.
    I do not know, for how many persons in your country the cancer
    diagnose and treatment means a personal catastrophe in form of
    economic crisis.
    Maybe it is peanuts as a problem, even you have 10 children or you are unembloyed.

    I do not know, how your people are processin the information they receive from the media. Is it possible, the sensational
    information is welcomed without any critic?
    Today I read in our newspaper, that registration is made difficult in 15 states to reject blacks and latinos.
    Here in Finland every citizen is automatially registered.
    I have never had any personal ID document, but Passport for
    visits abroad. Still my name is on the list, when I go to
    the poll station.
    This was my comment concerning your worries about Black Muslims.

    It is my personal belief, that in lack of any real outside threat
    your nation forms its own threats from various pieces of news
    they hear inside.
    Everybody feels, that some "bad people" come and take your
    ice cream and eat it.

    As a Christian, I share your opinions. I do not feel fear,¨
    as I know, God takes care of me. I am on the holy path which
    leads me to the heaven, it does not matter, what a human person
    can do for me.
    We have other fears, as you know our country is small and there are countries which are much bigger. You understand me...

    I wrote some sentences politcs as a response to your words,
    but I have that mood only today, so do not get bored, you or
    the lady in charge. It is Midnight here. I go to sleep

    You have maybe 50 times more people in prison, you clean
    your society and put the threat behind the iron bars.
    They are bad, they must be convicted.

    What is reason for that?
    Is it kind of hippocracy? The society must be clean. Everybody goeos to his church on sunday Morning at 10?

    If a politician has a mistress, that is a catastrophe.
    Still every normal adult person lives in a cloud of sex, its
    all over, in television, at job, in the offices, in schools.
    But, people live like sex is not existing at all!
    So, may God save the poor bastard, who says that openly or
    makes a step aside.....
    In France that is a merit. :-)

    That is hippocracy! Does it come from Baptism, having Calvinistic
    doctrin behind the curtains...?
    I do not know.

    I am not a liberal, I am very conservative in my thinking.
    So, do not get shocked.
    White Sheep

    1. Hi White Sheep,

      I lived in Finland for several years and follow Finnish media as best I can. I have several friends from Finland living in the U.S., who also follow Finnish media closely.

      It may come as a shock to you, but the way you Finns process the media, is the same as we Americans do. You read and absorb sensationalist peices without criticism.

      The only difference is that Finns are allowed to be naive in their idiocracy, with very few outsiders looking in. Americans on the other hand, have the lazer focus of the outside world following & interpreting through their own lense, everything we say and do.

      The advantage we have a English speakers is thousands of news sources, where Finnish is limited to only a few. And those few sources are not very good, despite what Finns may think.