"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Free Traveler Tells Her Story (The Voices Project)

Wednesday, July 24, 2013

Free Traveler Tells Her Story (The Voices Project)

Thanks to Free Traveler for telling her story.  Please consider sharing yours.

I started questioning the church when I started college. Before that, I absorbed everything they told me and didn't ever doubt my faith. I had a very loving family, never really felt oppressed by the "rules," and never had a bad experience like some that I've heard about. I was one of those people who was shocked, horrified, and saddened when I heard of people who left the church. I never imagined that eventually I would become one of those people.

I went to college not far from home, but for the first time was around a lot of liberal thinkers for many hours of the day. Over the course of the next few years, the guy I was dating (also FALC) and I had long discussions about our beliefs, and eventually he decided it wasn't for him. When my family found out, they asked why I was still dating him.

I graduated from college and moved to the city, where I lived and worked for awhile. One weekend, when I went home to visit, I decided I wasn't going to go to church with my family on Sunday, so as they were all getting ready, I sat with my mom and told her that I don't know what I believe, but I knew that if I went to church, it would be just because people expected me to go. I told her that I wanted to figure out if I would go on my own, without peoples' expectations, so in order to do that, I had to first stop going so I could get over that feeling of "have to be there." I have never been very confrontational. This was one of the hardest conversations of my entire life. But I felt very strongly that it was necessary.

A few years later, I was at a personal development workshop that addressed many areas of a person's life, including work, health, money, relationships, and religion/spirituality. For each section, there was a chance for a volunteer to go up on stage and be in the "hot seat" to answer questions from the facilitator about what they would like to change in that area of their life. I volunteered to be in the hot seat for the religion/spirituality portion. (By the way, I have never told anyone about this.) So, with microphone in hand, I told an audience of probably about 100 people about my religious past, all the rules, and my struggles with leaving the church while maintaining a good relationship with my family. It was incredibly empowering. The audience was loving and respectful and in awe at my story. They gave me courage to continue pursuing my path and exploring other possibilities than the FALC.

The path has still been difficult (and I've left out a lot of my story) but it's getting easier, and I'm becoming more comfortable with myself and my decisions to pursue my own spiritual path instead of bowing down to peer pressure and conforming to something I don't believe in.

Feel free to ask questions. I'm happy to talk to you. And it feels really good to have a place to share my story, especially with people who can probably relate to a lot of what I've said. Thanks for being here, everyone.

Free Traveler

66 comments:

  1. This comment has been removed by the author.

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  2. Thanks for sharing. I left as well, I suspect we may know each other. Either way, if you would like to chat, I will leave my email with Free.
    Best wishes!
    ~no moniker yet

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  3. Flora says: I had a similar conversation with my mother and it didn't go over well at all. I stayed away for about 6 months and then the pressure from my family brought me back, where I have been uneasily since. Thanks for sharing your story--wish you all the best. Wondering if there is anyone out there who left and went back under duress and if they have any tips for me about how to get out and stay out.

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    1. The most important thing is YOUR attitude. I left the FALC roughly 10 years ago. If you can understand the thinking of your mother, (and family) and change your attitude to "accept me for who I am, or I dont need you in my life" instead of the "I have to please everyone" attitude the church raises women to believe, it gets a lot easier. It comes down to confidence and belief in yourself and what you are doing is right for you. Because at the end of the day, you and you alone, are responsible for your happiness. Widen your circle of friends, find new interests that were "prohibited", and do what makes you happy. You can be your own person and yet respectful of your parents beliefs. It is possible, but it takes a whole new mindset. Believe in yourself, and you will find strength you didn't know you had.

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    2. Becca, great advice. It did take awhile to build up the confidence after I left but now that I have that confidence, nobody can tear it down. I sometimes wonder what my life would have been if I stayed in but have no regrets for leaving. I am so thankful and blessed to be able to chose my own path in life.

      -EXFALC

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  4. The best advice I have for you, if you want to try to get out again, and stay out is to start making friends outside of the church. Get involved in other organizations, whether it be a recreational sports team or volunteering. Try connection more with your co-workers. Their are many people out there looking for friends. Having other friends you can lean on for support will help you deal with the loss of your church community. In the beginning it is hard but looking back 10 years later, it was the best decision I ever made and I am so thankful and blessed to live a life that I chose, versus one that was chosen for me.

    -EXFALC

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    1. This is good advice, and I agree with it. I also know that making friends outside of the church is something that my parents strongly discouraged from childhood, and it was very hard for me at first to break that mindset and realize that it was even possible to have friends not from church. It was also weird for me to try to explain my history to my new friends; it wasn't something I was even remotely comfortable with doing for a very long time. -Free Traveler

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  5. I wonder if it isn't so much about leaving as it IS about the fear of knowing for certain our families may only love us WITH conditions. Theirs being church is not an option. That maybe we want their love more than our freedom.

    To me, the core sentiment about leaving is that we know our family love is attached. This is what makes it extremely hard, you are being asked to give up church and family 'love'. That is the fear that we were taught from a young age...by how our parents treated those who did not attend church, they were of lesser value. We feel it and know it. We don't want to lose our value, and yet it will be impossible not to, for that is what our families believe.

    And, I would ask you, to ask your self, Is that really love?

    Love to me is freedom. Love isn't to control. Love has choices, abuse has none.

    With each crossroads, you will be asked to either do what you have been doing or change.
    Change will be the toughest, the further from your own personal truth you are living...it means you have to change all the things you have been pretending.

    Maybe we too are expecting it to be easy, to be non-impacting. That even though we know they make no allowances, they will. We are expecting them to give what they don't have.

    From my experiences, it was the hardest thing I have ever done, while being the best and most liberating and freeing!

    There is the quote, by Anais Nin "And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom."

    You will stay inside until it becomes too painful to bear....and the pain being outside will be at least pain of growing and expanding as You.

    Perhaps our greatest fear is finding no real love as we test our families by our leaving.
    Or it teaches us to love with freedom.

    And, it isn't so much about them, but about ourselves. How much are you willing to pretend and for how long? When we put the blame on them, it leaves us powerless. We need to keep the reasons for staying or going within us.

    I left my family, for it would have cost me the real me to stay. I wasn't willing to live without me.

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  6. It's telling that a common theme of monikers on this site is a variation of the word, "Free." From one Free to another, welcome, and thanks for sharing your story.

    I too grew up FALC (and for personal reasons still remain, at least tangentially, part of the club). My "deconversion" story seems similar to yours -- after experiencing life outside of church and Kyds for a while, I gradually realized that what I had been led to believe my whole life wasn't really true. (I suppose that's why most Laestadian churches preach so heavily against the "World.")

    I'm curious to know, how is your family taking your leaving? Sometimes I think a subtle shift is taking place in FALC culture as people become more informed via the Internet. Then other times I talk to people from Church, and they'll say something mind-bogglingly ignorant or prejudicial, and I think nothing has changed.

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    1. I think my family is trying very hard to see that I'm still a good person, and still love them, but I know it's hard for them, because they are used to thinking that people from church are "good," and "worldly" people are "bad." Now that I'm "worldly," they have to revise their thinking. For the most part, we still get along really well. But sometimes they tell me they're praying for me, or tell me they hope I come back to the church, and those moments are extremely uncomfortable for me. -Free Traveler

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  7. I tried to leave--all of 3 months--in my early 20s and went back under duress. It was not simple, because it took me 20 years to leave again, and I have had several times I have almost gone back. It is easy to stay away when people are being ugly or rude to you regarding leaving, but when they're sincerely kind and loving and just want you to be with them, it's harder. My counselor has given me the advice that when people ask me if I hate the church, or the people, to say, "I love the church and I love the people there, it's just not for me anymore." That often silences them. If they persist in wondering what made me leave, sometimes I tell them the real reasons, sometimes I skirt the issue. The difficult part is that I have left my people and my culture behind, and I do not believe that I will ever make up for it, but I do feel the freedom.
    Anon

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  8. Free Traveler,
    Good post. What is your relationship with your mother/family like, presently? What part of the world are you from? And, could you detail what you meant you were horrified and sad when people left? I really don't understand that part of it, even when I "belonged." If I liked the person that left, I would feel sad that I wouldn't get to see them. I may have been too young to equate leaving with eternal damnation, I thought it applied to sin.

    Beth,
    I love what you said about love being freedom.

    FreeThinker,
    I'm so with you in thinking the only thing that remains unchanged about the faith(s) is ignorance.

    -Pebbles

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    1. Flora says: Thanks EXFALC and Beth for your encouraging words. I came across a quote from the website Beyond Belief, connected to the book "The Secret Lives of Women in Extreme Religions" that said: "...she senses the terrible disappointment of her family, because of what she no longer thinks...In my experience, one of the highest psychological tasks one can master is to healthily live with the disappointment of others. The women of Beyond Belief live with knowing that those who used to love them and those who still do, are disappointed, afraid, and angry about their choices to leave the faith, and many of them live with this very gracefully." It seems that many of the frequent contributors here have come to a place where they live gracefully with this disappointment as well. I think this author is correct in highlighting the importance of living with that disappointment--which for me, and I suspect many women is the hardest part.

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    2. Pebbles, I am from the midwestern United States. My relationship with my family is pretty good, considering what it could be. I still talk to my parents and siblings on a fairly regular basis, and visit them when I can. (I live pretty far away from them at the moment.) I think it would be very difficult to live in the same town as them, because I would have a hard time separating my life from the life they would prefer I lived.

      When I was younger and saw people "being pulled by Satan away from the church," I was worried for their eternal souls. In my mind, leaving the church was a great tragedy, because it meant that you wouldn't be getting your sins forgiven, which meant you would be going to Hell. I saw them burning in Hell for eternity, and I couldn't believe that they would choose that path consciously. Most times it was people I didn't even know. But I would hear other people talking about them, and saying how sad it was, and I would silently agree. I hope that answers your question. -Free Traveler

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  9. Beth, I love that flower bud quote!

    Flora, I hear you! I stopped signing cards with "God's Peace" and my mother made such a fuss ending with her in tears that I started putting it again. It felt like I was hurting her when I didn't put it, even if I no longer mean the words as an exclusive pass code to FALC...

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  10. Flora, you are on to something, when we have to learn to accept disappointing others AND more specifically (BlueSky) our Mothers.

    However, are we not taught to be good 'christian kids' to obey and do what the adults need us to do to be part of this group. So, when we are purposefully not fitting in, we are then seen and felt as being 'bad'.

    Add to that the natural tendencies of 'good girls' to please and keep the peace...that when you go against the grain, you are bad.

    It is no wonder we start to stop more than once. We don't want to feel bad or make others feel bad, for that is bad. However, I do believe it is also co-dependent and considered dysfunctional, for our mother's happiness to be contingent upon our actions.

    I used to be a mother just like that. My children had the power to make me a happy mother. Now, I have released them into their own lives to make themselves happy and it is my task to find my own happiness.

    Our greatest gift we mother's can give our children is their own lives...by living the example.

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  11. In the spring when farmers leave the cattle out of the barn for the first time, they worry that in their feeling free, they might jump around too much and break a leg. Have you ex's read the Bible for yourself? So that you have an anchor and proper footing.....Free to trust in Christ alone.

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    1. Sure have! Which is why I'm now an agnostic atheist.

      Your analogy is quite apt, though not in the way I think you intended. Personally, I'm willing to risk a broken leg to cavort in the sunlight after being chained in the darkness, wallowing in sh*t.

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    2. Did Laestadius read it for himself?

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    3. Flora says: "Have you ex's read the Bible for yourself?" I would wager most have...nothing like reading the Bible to make someone an ex-believer. And the fact that you are here tells me you aren't completely satisfied with your church or Bible reading either. As to the cattle analogy, I'm with FreeThinker 100%--got a good chuckle out of that image:-)

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  12. Running Free, but where to?, what's the end game like?....eat and be merry,just don't worry about it..........

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  13. Please choose a moniker.

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  14. Oh, for Pete's Sake, Anon. Why is it that LLL's think they are the only ones in the world who think about mortality, God, and the Hereafter? Has it never occurred to you that everyone on this planet understands they are going to die? And a good many of them wonder about things Seen and Unseen?

    OK, I had to rant. Usually when I read comments such as yours, I hear it through the sanctimonious tone of the We Are Saved and You Are Not. It gets tiring.

    No, we don't run free. No, we don't wallow in sin all day long. And, I have to assume, we do a lot more thinking than most people who adhere to the tenets of the Laestadian Churches.

    We do, however, practice kindness, love (where I frequently fail, obviously!), and read voraciously. You'd be surprised what you learn when you take off the blinders.

    I support those who are content within the church. That is their path. It is not mine.

    The message each Sunday at the church I attend is "No matter where you are on life's journey, you are welcome here." And they end the service by saying, "Love one another....Every Single Other."

    I like the message of acceptance.

    SISU

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  15. I have been following this blog daily for some time now and I would just like to finally comment to thank everyone here for supporting this blog through their contribution to discussion. Whether with their criticism or encouragement, any conversation keeps this website active and it has been such a source of information and strength for me. I am married to an active OALC man whom I love very much and have several children with. I myself do not attend OALC. As this is a public blog, I hesitate as I have in the past, to share much about me to keep my identity unknown because I do not wish to bring more of that bloody constant gossip (or as OALC members like to think of it as "News Sharing") upon my husband but, again, I am so thankful for the ex members who speak out and provide support to us living with others in these beliefs. It is a daily balancing act to constantly have to reject beliefs being practiced in my home while doing so in a loving and respectful manner, AND stand up for, practice, and share my own with my children. It is only God's love and my husband's love that defies his own beliefs, that guides me. As it can be difficult to join in a community without sharing much about myself, I do not comment as much as I would like to but I will try to do so more.

    -J

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    1. Thank you so much for commenting, J. It's definitely okay to share only as much as you are comfortable with. Let me know if there is a topic you would like us to discuss.

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    2. I wish I knew you -J. We share a lot in common, because your story is similar to mine. Your words are wisdom to me and I thank you for sharing. Jtoo

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  16. J said, "I do not wish to bring more of that bloody constant gossip (or as OALC members like to think of it as "News Sharing") upon my husband but...it is a daily balancing act to constantly have to reject beliefs being practiced in my home." The Laestadian lifestyle has provided descendants of the Laestadian immigration wave a way in which they could remain semi-isolated and it also gave them needed social structure and a sense of belonging in a country where the old rules and traditions did not apply. However, with the advent of the modern information age, life and living is becoming more homogenized globally. Old social norms are being questioned at every level. 'News sharing' which is an euphemism for gossip, is a way of keeping people in line and it might be thought of as a last desparate attempt to preserve a religious and cultural lifestyle as Laestadian leaders at all levels have been quite shocked at the rapidity with which social and religious norms have been overturned in the US. When I was a member I recall that there was a belief that if the preaching from the pulpit would not change people's hearts then the gossip would...and it actually worked. However, more and more it appears to me that the Laestadians are becoming much like the Republican Party which must either embrace a new political direction or face extinction. For Laestadians they will need to embrace basic things such as accepting that there are Christians in other groups, becoming evangelical in tone and be willing to share the gospel, discarding their narrow 'power of the keys' concept, accepting higher education etc... There are fewer and fewer conservative Christians in America & eventually I think that the Laestadians will either adapt and find common ground with them or the group's beliefs will finally become irrelevant to the younger generation who will leave. Laestadian leaders are sort of following the pathway of their old nemesis, the 'Tyomies-Eteenpain' socialists who lost their relevancy and whom finally morphed into the present day 'Finnish-American Reporter.' Old AP

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  17. Old AP, you are right. I have seen many current FALC members listing their favorite TV shows on their facebook profiles. Many of the women comment on facebook about their views on the bachelor, or the bachelorette. A huge difference from when I was growing up, when TV's were outlawed. If you contrast the radical views of the older members, compared to the young members of the congregation, their is a drastic difference. Life has changed significantly in the last 10/20 years, mainly due to technology. Another thing I noticed is that some FALC girls who came from very legalistic families, who were raised in very large families, are not following suit. With no birth control/family planning, they should have many more kids than they do right now. Not that I care, but it is just interesting to see things changing.

    -EXFALC

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  18. I also should add that I believe the reason these women are having smaller families, is because they can't afford to. Many of the women are having to work outside the home. Health insurance isn't what it used to be. Even with health insurance, a 10 or 20% co-pay for a hospital birth could be $2000 or more. Society is materialistic, and many of these young couples want to give their kids what all the other kids have so they can fit in with the other kids in school. Also, the general public views people with large families negatively. They see it as a waste of resources. I hear plenty of negative comments about the laestadian families in the community I live in. People in general think these families are putting too much of a burden on society because of the cost of enrolling all of those kids in public schools.

    EXFALC

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  19. When I'm in one of my negative moods, I see those large families as a result of gluttony. It's one area that they can participate in with over-abundance. And I am only referring to producing the babies and not necessarily tending to the children.

    I've tried to view it in a positive light, but I am hard-pressed to come up with a happy-family image.

    SISU

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  20. Flora says: I agree SISU, and would be curious to know what church you attend--I am looking for one with a message of acceptance (I looked into the local episcopal church because they accept female speakers and gays, but it didn't click for me).

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    1. Flora, it's a UCC church (United Church of Christ, the new name for Congregational). It's very liberal, but the two ministers are extremely knowledgeable and caring. Their main message is that we should follow Jesus, not worship Christ. They encourage questioning and even ran a 4-wk (Sunday after service) class on Banned Questions. It was fascinating!

      SISU

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    2. SISU, I am glad to hear that you are finding answers to your questions. Most of the time questions are only requests for more information and not some sign of rejection. However, I found that within Laestadianism there was a whole rack of 'do not touch' subjects. I noticed when I was in Laestadianism that the people seemed to have a lack of spontaneity to their persona. I began to think to myself that I was surrounded by and interacting with a group of people who had no souls and no life....people could not be themselves. Instead there was a meticulously programmed script which everyone followed that had been etched into the fabric of their very being. People would privately air their grievances amongst each other about various Laestadian/Apostolic Lutheran practices but overall they knew to keep their mouths shut and grudgingly go along with the status quo. It was all a formula for a very mundane life.....but maybe this is all just my opinion based on distant memories. Anyways, I am glad you have found a place where you can find honest answers to honest questions. Old AP

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    3. “[T]here was a meticulously programmed script which everyone followed that had been etched into the fabric of their very being. People would privately air their grievances amongst each other about various Laestadian/Apostolic Lutheran practices but overall they knew to keep their mouths shut and grudgingly go along with the status quo.”

      Brilliant observation as usual, Old AP. Certainly accurate as far as the LLC goes, I’d say.

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  21. Flora says: Thanks Sisu, I will check it out. And Old AP, you are right on. No one dares to be honest or real when it comes to those questions. People are down-home and real in some day to day things, but if you venture into certain territory, the wall comes down. It's just fear.

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  22. The fear is called "Unbelief"....to no longer believe in the Faith you were raised in...and we all know what happens to "unbelievers".

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  23. They burn! They burn! Ahhahahahahahahahaha!

    Puurua Face

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  24. There is a general fear that by being candid, ones comments will end up being distorted in some negative way inside the gossip mill and come back and bite a person. By the following Sunday the offending party will be forced to 'ask for forgiveness' from some 'offended' party. There is also a semi-subconscious fear that one will say something and inadvertently blaspheme the Holy Spirit...or how about the line where one can 'go from living faith to dead faith in an instant and not even realize it.' Let us not forget that any offense is punishable with the eternal flames of hell. In retrospect it is interesting to note how closely Laestadianism and hell's fire are intertwined in a seemingly symbiotic relationship. All of these subliminal fear-mongering teachings are ingredients for a certain level of individual and group paranoia. Old AP

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    1. I SO agree with you, Old AP. BTW, I am still wondering, after all these years of being away from the OAL, what, exactly, is the difference between Living Faith and Dead Faith? I know it scared the Bejesus out of us as teens, wondering when that Blink of an Eye may occur in us!

      SISU

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    2. In the FALC, the difference between living and dead faith is whether or not you accept the blessing of the forgiveness of sins. Also, if you dress and act within the group norms. Doesn't matter what you do in private as long as nobody else finds out about it.

      -EXFALC

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    3. I get that, EXFALC, but what if I'm sitting on the other side of the fence? What makes it Living? How can it be Living in the OALC and not in the FALC, for instance?

      SISU

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    4. From what I understand from being raised in the OALC, is that they have living faith because they are the "one true faith" directly connected to Moses or Noah or whoever they think was first here on earth. And when you ask forgiveness from another "christian" (in my case meaning OALC member) this is the only way to directly communicate with jesus or something. So, anybody not connected to the OALC is dead faith. And each branch of Laestadians believes that THEY are the only "one true faith." Whatever. And to EXFALC, it doesn't even matter what you do in public either, as long as you "ask forgiveness" for it. That magic wand erases all!
      I've always been a big reader but if I start a book and it doesn't interest me I stop reading and move on to something else. The bible was a book that just never got my blood pumping, it's just a history book and I always found it rather dry reading material. I was always much quicker to grab a Harlequin novel...and yes, I know I'm going to hell for that. At least it's warm down there, I really get sick of Minnesota winters.
      -24

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  25. SISU.....basically each group believes that you have to accept the forgiveness of sins from their respective group in order to have living faith. If you already went through that in another Laestadian group it does not matter as the other groups are all heretics in need of repentance. As far as any other non-Laestadian church well they are all 'dead faith churches of the world'. It is basically all a bunch of religious semantics with each group claiming to be the true living vine descended from the Apostles themselves. Old AP

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    1. Old AP, I hate to keep beating a dead horse, but when OALCs learn that someone from Outside has "made repentance", they are happy that the person has recognized the True Faith. Well, what exactly has that person seen? What makes the OALC different to that person than, say, the FALC?

      I guess I never could see the finer points, and even though I stuck with the Party Line and spouted many "truisms" myself through my teens and early 20s, I didn't have a clear picture of what makes the OALC Different. I remember thinking, "It's different because this is where I am!" That's circular thinking.

      SISU

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    2. SISU, it is not always easy to define "what makes the OALC different", or "what exactly has that person (the convert) seen?" From what I remember most Laestadians would have no concept of leading some one to Christ such as when Philip found Nathanael in John 1:45. Most Laestadians have a predestination mindset and instead think that God mysteriously awakens those he has chosen and then God leads (or drives them) to the local Laestadian church where they see the errors of their ways and then they ask for forgiveness. Conversion within Laestadianism is actually quite complex as having a spiritual conversion to faith in Christ is not the end of the matter. Instead there is a whole truck load of unwritten or 'understood'rules that one must adhere to. Most outsiders who attend a Laestadian service are quick to perceive that something is not quite normal and they do not come back for seconds. However, there is always a few who think they have found the light and they gullibly believe the Laestadian party line. I have heard how more than a few people have had buyer's remorse later on when they finally began to understand the ACTUAL Laestadian/Apostolic Lutheran beliefs and mentality. Laestadianism is often a lifestyle as well as a religion so some person may have observed an OALC member and noticed that their lives seem to be centered around God, a family and honest hard work in contrast to what they came from. If there is enough of an attraction to this seemingly peaceful and religious lifestyle then a person might accept the party line and convert. Old AP

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    3. Old AP,
      My sisters recent husband is someone who "saw the light" and my dad has used it as a tool to keep me in faith, "I don't see how you can think that because he sees it so differently and he was raised an unbeliever so he would know!"

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    4. BlueSky, your reply just gave a lot of credence to my previous comment. I do not say a person can not find salvation within Laestadianism, I am merely of the opinion that the Apostolic Lutheran groups make things very difficult with all of their add-on and unwritten rules and understandings. You mentioned that, 'My sisters recent husband.."saw the light." I am happy for him. However, I have previously made mention of a fair number of 'marriage conversions' which I saw. However, I am happy that you are doing well within your group. Perhaps by reading this site you are testing the waters to see it what you grew up with is the real deal as you had stated that there has been some kind of "tool (needed) to keep me in the faith." Old AP

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    5. Old AP,
      I know that you did not mean one cannot find salvation within the church, my brother in law was converted years before he met my sister. As for doing well within my group, I am kind of on the edge of my group and drifting.... My father is aware of this as sees it as a failure in parenting, hence the idea of him trying to keep me in.

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    6. BlueSky, what me and some of my other nonbelieving siblings have found works best for our Mom is to reassure her that although we may not believe all the things the Church teaches, we'll always believe in the Forgiveness of Sins. Which, even though I don't believe in the concept of "sin" any more (much less Christianity), it's still more or less true for me, just on a different level.

      I don't know how your dad would take it, but it has seemed to soothe Mom. That is the most important thing for the FALC anyway, and it doesn't hurt (for me at least) to accept and offer blessings. Heck, sometimes it even still feels cathartic and comforting.

      Of course, that's only if you feel like you could truthfully tell them that. If you feel like that would be hypocritical or it just wouldn't feel right, know that that's ok too. Either way, reassure your dad he did a great job of raising you, and none of this is a result of failure on his part (and truly, it's not).

      But ultimately, this is YOUR life and YOUR path to choose, not his. I am certain he will always love you regardless.

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  26. Is there support groups for people like me who have never been in the church but have spent many years working with and being subjected to the peculiar energy that is created when you are around a whole group of 'believers' who greet each other with "God's peace" while they secretly (or not so secretly) condemn others to hell and celebrate how humble and weary and how many lackings they have (they have to tell each other this)?

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  27. "Is there support groups for people like me who have never been in the church....?" You might say that this is the "support group' you are looking for right here as the folks here are geographically separated but unified in mind and outlook. You were perceptive enough to realize that if one is not totally in then you are totally out. As far as all that blather about, "how humble and weary and how many lackings they have..." they are probably telling the truth but not in the way most people think of it. Most people would think they are talking about their 'lackings' or lapses as a Christian. But the truth is a little more complex than they even realize as what they are really talking about are their lackings with regard to their membership and standing within their respective Laestadian/Apostolic Lutheran group as no one can measure up to all the written and unwritten rules which are just 'understood' by everyone. In addition many of them have had to give up their own personal aspirations and career goals in order to maintain membership in good standing. Since no one can meet all of the high and almighty group standards they all feel lacking in some way. Old AP

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  28. We can be your support group, Anon (above). I left the church earlier this year and laugh when my family tries to tell me they don't believe I'm going to hell. Erm...been there, believed the way you do, nice try.
    It is peculiar. And how do I stop saluting people? When I walk into a room (of "christians") everybody reaches to shake my hand (not AS many now that I have short, sinful, worldly hair--puts questions into their heads). I always give my mom a hug when I see her so I just say "hi" and she says "Gods Peace" (or "speace" as it so often comes out). When I am in a situation where I DO salute I very clearly say "Gods. Peace." with a soulful look into their eyes (I enjoy causing them to second guess their beliefs). Condemn me to hell all you want, I know better.
    And yes, I'm still around, just kind of hiding. Elders' syndrome hit my family hard and the infection has side effects which have changed some family relationships. This summer is almost over and they can hightail it back to the mother-land, dear ole Sweden, and leave me alone!
    Be well.
    -24

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  29. It's so good to find people who have actually left churches like mine. I grew up in the IALC and never doubted any of beliefs until I started going to college, where I came out as gay. The very few people in my church community that I've told my sexual orientation to have been extremely unsupportive, especially my parents. They believe I should never ever pursue a relationship with another man.
    Luckily, I go to college quite far from most IALC churches and I've really thought a lot about leaving. I tried to reconcile my sexual orientation with my former faith, but there seems to be no way of doing that anymore. Lately my parents have been criticizing me for having to many "worldy" friends as opposed to friends within the church group (not my fault I don't "speak car" like all the other young men in my church do). I just wonder how on earth I can live without my family's love and support, especially since I'm only 19.

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    1. Anon,
      I'm 21 and just of of college, I was a good FALC Christian until junior year. I'm still technically in the church although my family knew I was questioning this last winter. I'm currently in a whishy washy place where I go between wanting to be accepted by the church and not wanting anything to do with it. Use college as a chance to build a support system, join a LBGT group, work on finding out who you are, I had a gay co worker who was ex Jehovah's Witness we had a lot in common and he was a great support!

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    2. Thanks Blue Sky! Luckily all of my friends outside of the IALC are incredibly supportive, especially my boyfriend. I know what you mean about being in this "wishy washy" phase, that's definitely where I am right now. Honestly, if being gay was accepted in my church, I would be really tempted to just stay in it. But I really don't think the church's stance on it will change anytime soon.

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    3. Doesn't it just see so much easier to jut stay and try satisfy everyone? Sometimes I feel like I should but then the problem is I think I would be lying to myself? In some ways I wish I could just skip to the future where I have made a decision one way or another (to stay or leave) although I realize this decision will help me grow as a person, if you ever want someone to talk to let me know!

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    4. BlueSky said, "Doesn't it just see so much easier to just stay and try satisfy everyone?" Psychologists have observed how easy it is for people to bounce from one psychological extreme to another extreme. You may have noticed some of these kinds of people in your church for example. Some of the Laestadian groups are actually on the extreme end of the religious spectrum although most who grow up in the church would not realize it. Unfortunately more than a few who have left have given up all of the good things instead of just the 'not so good' things. If you leave be careful to not pursue a lifestyle or life choices such that you will end up being afraid to look church members in the eye. IMO no matter how far one runs from Laestadianism it will always remain as some portion of your persona all of your life. I am not sure what pathway you plan on pursuing but from my experience getting a college/university degree was an integral part of my pathway out of a very repressive lifestyle. Old AP

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    5. I left the FALC, but I have definitely retained the feeling that I'm more blessed than everybody else.

      --Puuroa Face

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    6. Old Ap,
      College has really opened my eyes to "the world" the good and the bad. I also realize that I was blessed with a happy childhood and I recognize that many within FALC are happy to live their lives within the church. I do not think that I have to right to tell them that they are wrong or that I have found a better way. I just think that my path is going to be a different one? Although the church has given me a good moral foundation which I hope to keep. Thanks your your words of advice!

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    7. It's funny how all the preaching about humility and unworthiness results in a feeling of superiority.

      --Puuroa Face

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    8. I can not leave the ALCA because it is here that I found peace. Yes, you might be surprised, but here I learned to trust Jesus as my total payment and have never in 37 years since, lost that peace. Yet, there are many problem beliefs. One is the lack of full inclusion for LGBT people. I am committed to change this and am sorry that your family and church will not accept you. I hope they will seek your forgiveness when they realize you are perfectly formed in the image of God. I was where they are, and am sorry that you have had to wrongly suffer, it was not Gods plan for you.

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  30. Ain't THAT the truth, P Face! You hit the nail on the head with that one! SISU

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    1. To be fair some have a 'feeling of superiority' while others do not. Some members are actually intimidated by the 'world' and those whom work within professional fields such as doctors and lawyers and they actually have a subtle feeling of INFERIORITY. Looking back on things I was a little amused on the number of self proclaimed 'experts' within Laestadianism. It was not until I went for more advanced academic studies that I realized a number of the self proclaimed experts were in fact 'quacks'. For example, years ago I remember hearing about some church members who had gotten cancer and the scuttlebutt was that God must be 'punishing them' for some secret sin. Years later I learned that the truth was that they had gotten cancer because they already had a predisposition for cancer based on their family's genetic history. I would not want to hurt anyone's feeling but the truth is many of the religious assumptions of modern day Laestadianism are based on ignorance and not on any real Biblical teaching. Old AP

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    2. Perhaps both superiority and inferiority have the same root cause: egotism? An addiction to comparing oneself with others, which is dependent on seeing oneself as separate and important. Wisdom traditions give us tools for transcending ego.

      "True humility is not thinking less of oneself, but thinking of oneself less."

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  31. Free, I have been under the impression that 'splitting' is a very dominant type of thought process within Laestadianism. The concept of splitting is intertwined within Apostolic Lutheran type doctrine and beliefs. Per Wiki, "Splitting (also called all-or-nothing thinking) is the failure in a person's thinking to bring together both positive and negative qualities of the self and others into a cohesive, realistic whole. It is a common defense mechanism used by many people. The individual tends to think in extremes (i.e., an individual's actions and motivations are all good or all bad with no middle ground. Splitting...begins as the inability of the infant to combine the fulfilling aspects of the parents (the good object) and their unresponsive aspects (the unsatisfying object) into the same individuals, but sees the good and bad as separate. In psychoanalytic theory this functions as a defense mechanism." Old AP

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  32. You said, I learned to trust Jesus as the full payment for your sin, good for you, Jesus must be the object of our faith, and only Jesus. The problem is because of the Laestadian church teaching, only a few are able to free themselves from church rhetoric and actually place all their faith in Jesus .....Matt

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