"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Taking Time Off

Monday, March 25, 2013

Taking Time Off


This is a guest post by "24," who is sharing her journey with us:

Today is Sunday—my first Sunday in which I chose to not attend church. I publicly left the OALC on March 13, 2013. Having worked every-other weekend for many years now, it is understood that--due to my job—I'm not able to attend as diligently as most (meaning every Sunday, without fail). This being the first Sunday in which I CHOSE to not attend was a different matter entirely, and I heard about it from my mom via text message. Always the warmest, most kind-hearted person I know, her inner "mama bear" came out and I saw a side of her that I do not at all like. Directed towards me was guilt, guilt, guilt, but she also threw in some choice words regarding my school, work, teachers, and the devil. That was rough. It has been surprisingly smooth sailing up to today, and though I knew that the waters would be troubled at some point, it is still not an easy thing hearing these things from my mom. Even though I am certain that my beliefs are correct and true to me, being confronted (attacked) brings out weakness in each of us. Through my tears I composed a loong reply, which I then deleted. The response I gave was a simple reminder that I could have taken the easy way out and left without a backwards glance (which I did consider for some time), but that it was love for my family that impacted the way in which I was carrying out my decison, truthfully and openly. I received no response.

Today has opened my eyes in new ways. I realized that I need to start making plans on my Sundays, as that is typically a day surrounded by family. I also think I will be taking some time off from family until they cool their engines and learn to accept who I am. Some of the activities I'm going to start looking into are: find a great restaurant that sells crepes (I've just been craving), visit art galleries and museums, go shopping, meet friends for coffee, find 'walks for causes', some type of fundraiser, find somewhere to volunteer. Any input, advice, or ideas will be greatly appreciated, as well as similar stories. I know that I am not alone, and it has been greatly beneficial to hear from others who have walked in similar shoes.

Strong, brave, and just getting started—
24.

37 comments:

  1. It is hard to make a choice for your self that pains others, but it is crucial that you do what brings you peace. It is even harder to 'disappoint' your mother, but in time, she will either learn to accept you and your new found self or will not. It is not your job to make other's approve or disapprove, your only job is to be you....authentically and truthfully. That will bring you peace, love and joy.

    As for Sundays. They are now my Art Days...as well as days for going on dates with my husband or planning a family get togethers. I see them as free days of doing what I love, what brings me love, peace and joy. They are days to refuel my Spirit.

    They are SO guilt free. So far from the preachings of worthlessness or shame and judgment.

    I love your straightforwardness....but, know that others will not all respond in kindness, as you are finding out. But, it says more about their state of mind than yours.

    Thanks for sharing your experience. I would love to read your blog, if you ever decide to write one, you have a way with words.

    Beth Jukuri

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  2. 24, there are books as well that will be helpful, so that you will understand that what you are feeling is perfect for the changes you are making. I read a lot of books, by authors such as;

    Byron Katie, "Loving What is"
    Martha Beck, "Leaving the Saints" (she left the mormon church and it is also about child abuse)
    Brene Brown "Daring Greatly - How the courage to be vulnerable transforms the way live, love, parent and lead.
    Julia Cameron "The Artist Way" A great work book in finding the Art of You.
    Michael Singer "The Untethered Soul"

    A few that came to mind immediately.

    Beth

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    1. Thanks so much, I will definitely look into these!
      24

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  3. I understand where you are coming from, 24. I was not 24, but 41 when I decided not to go to church anymore. For many years, I had severe and chronic and debilitating pain. I missed a lot of church, maybe 1/3 to 1/2 of the time because I worked full-time and was a single parent and was suffering in my daily life. I felt very guilty about missing church, but I knew I also had to make a living for myself and for my son, and sometimes I desperately needed the rest. I knew if I came and left mid-day, friends and loved ones would make comments, "But you don't look sick today....!" If I felt good, I was consistently there, and if I did not feel good, I had to stay home. Sometimes I would get all dressed, my son ready, had my lunch casserole made, and I was in too much pain to carry it forward. The physical pain was nothing compared to the pain of not being believed, of having been accused of inventing a mysterious illness so as to avoid going to church because my spirit was somehow lacking. Of being called a hypochondriac. Of having my illness called "Sunday disease" because of missing church, and having loved ones, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, and even PARENTS accusing you of having weakened faith. The truth was, the only places I ever really went was to work and church, and maybe three art or cultural events a year. I was practically a shut-in. Eventually, I found treatments that helped my pain. When I started feeling more like a normal person, I found I lost enthusiasm for the church and I resented my family greatly for having believed that I made it up. Like I would go to the lengths of creating a fake illness to avoid church! Like if I wanted to quit going, I couldn't have just done that!

    It has been a few years since I left. Sometimes, I miss it. Most of the time, I don't. I got involved with community and I have a wide range of social activities and I am always busy. I have many friends. I have stretched myself further then what I thought was possible. Most of my friendships with people in the church have faded away. I wish them all well. Every once in a while I entertain the notion of returning, but I am so much happier not to be subject to the attendance police anymore. And people who question the quality of your faith.

    I also realize how much happier I generally am without it, and how seldom I ever cry anymore and how often I laugh. That counts for something, too. I realize that there are many people who are VERY satisfied with their life in the church and I sometimes feel jealous of them, because I had never planned to leave the church.

    At one point, one weekend in 2009, I made the conscious decision not to go. That was a conscious decision on my part, not unlike the decision you made on March 13. Whereas before, my decisions that I made were due to my weakened body, my decision to quit going was finally a result in my weakened belief, the original accusation finally became true. My body was healed but my spirit was crushed.

    If you have to pull back with your family, its understandable. I pulled back in the beginning, and I'm sometimes included with events, sometimes not. I find it hard to take to be preached about returning. And I found it was not worth it to be candid for having left, there is never in their eyes an acceptable reason for leaving the church.

    Love to you, 24!

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    1. Thank you for your kind words.
      24

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    2. Anonymous said she was, "accused of inventing a mysterious illness so as to avoid going to church because my spirit was somehow lacking. Of being called a hypochondriac. Of having my illness called "Sunday disease" because of missing church, and having loved ones, brothers, sisters, cousins, aunts, uncles, and even PARENTS accusing you of having weakened faith." I see how nothing has changed since I left. Your accusers are those who have essentially been brainwashed & whose heads are filled with empty dogma. Hold your head high as you are finally on the right path now (the pathway that leads out). Consider the following quote:
      "He who knows nothing is closer to the truth than he whose mind is filled with falsehoods and errors." Thomas Jefferson Old AP

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    3. I should say, I am still a Christian. My belief that was weakened, was really that I lost faith in my belief of that particular church. I still accept Jesus Christ as my savior, I still pray to God, and I am still a Christian. In fact, of all the churches I have ever been, I prefer the one I left, but it's because that's the culture I am used to practicing. I just lost faith in my particular denomination. I lost the ability to pretend.

      I remember seeing a documentary once of an Amish man who left the church (along with his wife and another family in his congregation) because he no longer believed in the exclusivity doctrine. However, he did not give up his Amish way of life. He lived exactly was before. He and his fellow leaver went out and preached the gospel out in the world of the "English" as they call them. People were very surprised to see them spreading the good news on the street, as this is not an Amish thing to do. He explained, "I am a Christian who happens to practice the Amish culture...but first, I am a Christian." I cried when I heard him say that. I know that's who I am. I am still a Laestadian by culture, am still practicing and living that culture in my everyday life. That will never leave me, and I don't think I ever want it to. I am, in most every way, still one of them. The difference is, I don't believe that my culture will save me. Only grace from the Lord Jesus Christ will save me. I am no longer going to nit-pick on shades of gray and what my sister _______ or my mother would say or think about small minutia in my life. I don't think that Jesus Christ came down to this earth to be RIGHT. He came down to save, simple as that.

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  4. Oh, I so feel for you. The disappointment from my family, and mother in particular, was much more difficult for me to deal with than the scathing remarks. I think you're on the right track, 24. Please, don't forget, in your search for a new path, that you still are you and still have the right to be you. You can make changes as you see fit. Also, please don't forget the importance of keeping in touch with you emotions and issues you have to deal with, sometimes when one is trying to fill up space in one's life, they overcompensate and actually lose sense of self. So be vigilant, pay attention to you.
    I have the best days on Sundays, finally. As Beth says, I also use them for art or family, trying something new, or filling a day reading and recharging, being outside marveling through nature and knowing my God is an awesome God, and he takes care of it for me, he doesn't want to punish me, just love me. These new Sundays are a whole lot more spiritual for me when I'm engaging in a medium that speaks to me with light, versus the heaviness of noise coming from the pulpit. I am so excited for you to experience this!
    There will be days that are not good. There will likely be days when you will feel crushed that you don't feel open to running to mother when you could use a no-strings-attached hug. You will bump into people you know, but they will pretend they don't know you, or look for physical signs that you have fallen from grace. But, you will endure. You will do whatever it takes. You will be so relieved when, one Sunday, you wake up and put on whatever you want to wear, go out of the house, and not realize until you are back in bed that you just had the most amazing day not going to church.
    I applaud your efforts and pray you may always stay so strong and positive.
    -Pebbles

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    1. Thank you for your support!
      24

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  5. I also would like you to remember, that you are exiting a cult like environment, and you will have doubts and old fears and extreme feelings of being disconnected, for being in a cult means to be like the others....now you will not match.

    Not matching and feelings of not belonging are normal coming out of a closed community, for you actually are. If you don't feel the distance between the new and old you and how you are treated, you would not be making changes.

    Changes and courage and being vulnerable are both terrifying and exhilarating.

    Letting go of the old ways will hold grief and grasping on to the new will feel weird, odd, fun etc....new is new.

    Again, what strength at 24.
    Beth

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  6. LLLreader sez: What good and dear comments 24 is receiving here. I have nothing to add, except how wonderful to realize that you are in the hardest part right now--and life will just continue to get better.

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  7. Thanks to all of you. I've been saying a lot of that lately, to those who've become my support group. A couple people in particular have really stepped up to the plate and opened their arms wide.
    This Easter Sunday I plan to attend a dinner with a friend who has become dear to me. I don't know her family at all so this is definitely stepping a bit outside of my comfort zone but I feel like it is a good opportunity to test the waters a bit and begin doing some networking.
    I spent this evening with my family. Haven't done much of that lately but it went well. Having 7 nieces and nephews there was convenient, I had a distraction whenever I needed one. Several times I used them as an exit strategy, lol :) It is comforting though to be able to have semi-normal family time still. I see sorrow in their eyes as they look at me as a heathen, but I'm learning to ignore that--it is they whose lives are suffering when living under that deluded thinking. I do feel bad for them.
    Happy Easter to all of you, whatever that means to you. I'm not sure what this life is about, and I understand that I'm part of a lifelong journey of discovery. Peace to all.
    -24

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  8. I have questions for 24: Can you articulate more clearly your exact reasons for leaving? I got bits and pieces from what you have posted thus far. So do you believe your former church is a false church? Or as Beth put it: cult-like? Do you truly believe your family is "deluded"? All of them? All church members? Was Jesus deluded and cult like? The readings for Good Friday would seem to indicate that those of His time thought so. How are the members of your former church differently deluded and cult like? Many that now offer you advice may have considered these questions. Some may not have. A church can be like a large family where everyone has a part. Some weaker, some stronger, all helping one another toward a common goal. Will you find that closeness in the world? In some other faith? Be careful what advice you listen to. This large family of so-called ex's will offer you advice on the basis of their experiences which may be very different from yours. I've followed this blog for many years and am always struck by how quickly advice and encouragement is offered in support of leaving one faith or another without anyway of knowing what really is driving that particular person. Would we be so quick to offer advice and encouragement if we came across a child running away from home without knowing what took place? We are all children in a spiritual sense struggling to find our way. We never grow up spiritually. The word of God is our bright light that shows the road before us that our feet will walk on. Without that light we would all be lost in darkness. These are my random thoughts, questions, and observances to hopefully help you on your way.

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    1. Reasons for leaving:
      -The biggest one for me is that I cannot believe that this church, OALC, would be the only members of this world who will see heaven.
      -There are rules: everything is black and white. Sin, sin, sin. God gave me a brain for a reason and I intend to use it. Following a movement, or group of people blindly is something I'm no longer able to live with. Having seen some of this world, and the people who live in it, and the opportunities available, I will no longer subject myself to pretending that doesn't exist.
      -So closeted and shut off from anybody in "the world," women barely have a voice at all. They see what they see in their little world of christians and choose or are persuaded to believe everything that the preachers say. Men, women and children, I should say. For one to have "doubts" these have to be quickly put away and forgotten. Why? Because these "doubts" are real and that is why they are feared--those who look into them see the truth and might find the courage to leave.
      -I don't believe that this is a false church, and I believe it's members will go to heaven. I just don't like the feeling of being so closeted and shut off from the world and believe that we are ALL Gods children, not only the few who belong to the church.
      -I don't see the church as a cult but it is definitely a very tightly knit group who looks to their leaders, or preachers, for advice on every aspect of their lives. If that advice is not followed, you are going to be seen as "going against the preachers," and misfortune will likely come your way.
      -When I mention my family and church being deluded it's in regards to their false belief that they alone are heaven-bound.
      -You mention the large family and the closeness. As I explained to my mom--leaving the church and it's beliefs is easy for me. I've been ready to walk away for a long time. It's my family that I have stuck around for. Losing that sense of belonging and community will be impossible to replicate and I will definitely feel the impact of that loss. But staying for that reason alone was not worth it for me, I guess. I have over the years been welcomed into others families and lives--while I won't have that worldwide safety net, I do have people there for me.
      -As far as receiving encouragment and advice to leave? By the time I first began commenting on these blogs I had already made my decision to leave, so the support is overwhelmingly welcomed. If somebody were to post with questions about their faith and whether they should stay or leave or what, I think the advice given would be different.

      I do understand that this is a life-long journey and I don't expect it to be all roses and sunshine. Thanks for your thoughts and advice and I hope this helped answer some questions.

      -24

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    2. It sounds like you are much more experienced and mature than I was when I left, but if it can avoid you some embarrassment, here are some tips for dining with friends' families:

      1. Let the host/ess tell you where to sit (ask if s/he doesn't).
      2. Place your napkin in your lap.
      3. Wait until the host/ess says grace or gives you the go-ahead before picking up your fork.
      4. Thank the cook.
      5. Ask to be excused from the table.
      6. Offer to help tidy up.

      These social graces were not taught in my family. Not sure if it was my family or church norms.

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    3. Thanks :)
      24

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    4. 24 said that, "So closeted and shut off from anybody in "the world," women barely have a voice at all." I have long maintained that one of the main unspoken tenents of the Laestadian groups is to keep the women ignorant (uneducated) which is done both through the preaching and peer pressure. In fact much of what are called principles and doctrine are in fact structural church beliefs that are really designed to ensure the subjugation of the women. I would much rather have seen the women pursuing academic degree and professional fields versus the endless gossip about who was wearing what, who was dating whom and who was visiting from out of state. However, a woman who pursued an education ran the risk of becoming an outcast and then a vanha peka. Old AP

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    5. Old AP-

      I agree--ignorance is key to keeping people content with the church. Girls going to school is becoming more "normal" but the ideal is for girls to marry young and spend the rest of their lives having babies, "as many as God gives." The ones who do go to school are advised to use extreme caution with who they associate with and to always keep their "Christianity" as the number one priority in their lives, even quitting school if any temptations or doubts begin to arise.

      Also--I'm sure that tongues are wagging over my disobedience and the fact that I'm destined for hell. When a woman's life is spent stuck at home with a bunch of kids there is much time to gossip.

      -24

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    6. 24 said, "The ones who do go to school are advised to use extreme caution with who they associate..." I remember hearing that same crapola 40 years ago. I think it was reinforced as some church girls had ended up either pregnant or in bed with some 'worldly' guys. So in one sense the warnings were valid so there was a big push for girls to keep their legs crossed in school. From what I saw many of the church girls would be rather naive about some of the 'slick talking, get in your pants' types of guys out there. You said, "I'm sure that tongues are wagging over my disobedience and the fact that I'm destined for hell. When a woman's life is spent stuck at home with a bunch of kids there is much time to gossip." As I have said in other posts I think that it is much more difficult, on average, for a woman to leave the Laestadian fold than it is for a guy. I think you can expect to receive a lot more social pressure & isolation/shunning over your choice to leave as the unspoken social expectation for a female within Laestadian circles is for her to become a baby machine. The only real way to avoid it is to move out on one's own which is not that easy in this day and age of financial insecurity. Several other ex-Laestadians whom I know personally, as well as myself obtained professional degrees & eventually left as we had the financial means to strike out on our own as well as the maturity to realize we no longer needed to be dependent on the 'club' for our social friends & we certainly did not need to listen to religious quacks for our spiritual needs any more. So obtaining a professional degree where you could earn a decent income would seem to be very relevant to your situation. If you fail to make it on your own the tongues will be definately wagging with comments such as, 'see I told you', 'God sure punished her', 'I wonder how many guys she slept with', 'what a slut', 'which guy is ever going to want her now', at least those were the comments I heard years ago if a female returned after having strayed from the fold. And of course everyone will want to avoid you as you will be looked upon as sort of a contagious toxic poison. I personally know the price for having left & for me it was well worth it in retrospect but when I went through the process alone it was a difficult and lonely pathway. But it can be done. Old AP

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  9. Jesus was not deluded or cult like, he always did the will of God. But as for the Laestadian movement? It is definitely cult like,they claim to be the exclusive "kingdom of God",does'nt that qualify them? They qualify for the guiness book of records in 2 categories, one is in the number of splits.

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  10. I so rarely comment on this blog but I had to today. I just want to offer you up hugs and encouragement!! I was in your place a year and half ago (different split) and while it was the hardest thing I've ever done, it was also the best decision I ever made. There were ups and downs for sure. I went through some awful anxiety accepting the fact that it will never be the same with my family. But time really does heal. I was just pondering that this past week. Life is GOOD! Like you, I made it known to my family that I was done. Looking back, it might have been easier to slowly slink away but it was how it had to be and also part of God's plan for me. I was immediately led to the Bible (the gospel of John to be exact) and Jesus came to life in those pages and I saw who he really was and that he had died for me. I thought I was done with religion for at least a long while but was led to another church quite quickly. Spend time in prayer. Spend time in the bible. Think about joining a bible study. Find others who have done this before you. I had several people to support me and reached out to others whenever I needed support. It really does get better! But there's a good chance it could get worse before it gets better. My favorite people to reach out to were other LLL's that were not from my sect because the stories were exactly the same but yet both groups consider the others heretics.

    I believe the book "The subtle power of Spiritual Abuse" (by David Johnson) is a MUST READ for anyone leaving a LLL church or one like it. I also read anything about people leaving other one true churches like the Mormon faith. The one thing I've realized is we ARE NOT ALONE! There are soo many fundamentalist churches out there and our situation is not as unique as it feels at times. Just start googling things like "legalism", "one true churches"... stuff like that.

    Just wanted to share some of the things that helped me cope. Hang in there and enjoy your FREEDOM!
    -thankful every day

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    1. Thank you! I will definitely look into the books suggested to me. Knowledge is power, that is definite! I look forward to a year and a half from now, when I can look back and see how far I've come.
      -24

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    2. I agree with Thankful Every Day. Shelve what you've been taught from imperfect men and ask God to teach you the truth from His word. Religion complicates and muddles up God's truth. It's okay not to understand everything you read, but God will teach you what you can handle at that moment in time. Jesus wants us all to seek Him, not religion.
      Peace by Piece

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  11. Knowledge is power, The Bible says in 2ND Peter,Grace and Peace be multiplied to you by the knowledge of God and Jesus Christ. Thats Gods promise to us when we study his word. THE Bible also says My people perish because of the lack of knowledge. Isn't God good he gives us a choice.

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    1. I agree! Most of us were taught that knowledge is a bad thing and we shouldn't study the bible. One of the things I did after leaving was start a journal of sorts. I took all the wrong things we were taught like knowledge and anytime I came across verses in the bible that conflicted with what we were taught I wrote them down. Everything from the forgiveness of sins, the vanity issue, the one church, study of the bible etc... The more I learned from the bible the free-er I felt!
      Thankful every day

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  12. I learned that Apostolic Lutheran style forgiveness of sins doees not save you. It can only clean you up until the next sin. Trusting in Christ alone gave me the power to overcome,plus it gives you a thankful heart.Especially today being Easter Sunday.

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  13. It's having to bring continual sacrifices to the alter but cannot save. Only Christ can wipe away our sin and he did that once and for all on the cross. (Hebrews 7:27 and 10:3- or most of chapter 10) And Christ is our mediator now! Not other sinful human beings.
    Love Hebrews! Was so eye opening!
    -thankful every day

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  14. 24,

    24, After you are out of the church for an extended amount of time, you may reflect back to what your life would have been like if you had stayed in the church. It does take some time to lose the bitterness toward your church/family for being raised in a lie (some take longer to heal, sometimes depending if their was abuse involved). It may take you a little while to create a new social network on the outside...but once you do, their is nothing greater than having control of your own life. I am so thankful and blessed to be out of it. You are one of the lucky ones, to have the courage to get out!

    -EXFALC

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    1. EXFALC-

      Thanks for your support. I definitely do not want any bitterness, as I know that it can be destructive to a person and I don't want to invite that into my life. As far as healing, yes, I spent the first 24 years of my life immersed in an extreme religion and am sure that I will have lifelong effects of that. That said, I don't fault my parents, as I am thankful for being raised decently. I had a happy childhood--perhaps different than much of the world--but I am thankful to be able to say that I have suffered no abuse (I, the perfect daughter, never recieved spankings even, although there was the occasion when my brothers did. Spankings are definitely accepted by most and used as a way of "keeping kids in line.")
      I am so thankful that I am on track to leading a fulfilling life that will make me happy. I spent some miserable years sticking with the church, and can say that had I met someone I probably would have settled and gotten married, knowing that leaving would be difficult to the point of being nearly impossible. I'm sure there are many who do take that easy road, even if they don't believe it is the right one. I'm not sure where I got my courage, but I am surely thankful for it.
      An amiable person who makes friends easily, I anticipate a fairly easy transition as I make my way in my new life. I was invited by a professor (who I've grown close to) to a family Easter dinner yesterday. I said that I would pop in but may not stay long and she was fine with that. A delightful group of people, I ended up staying for 4 hours and left knowing that I had a new group of friends. I am so thankful that this transition is going okay. It is still very fresh and I will certainly have rough patches, but it is SO very encouraging when I am able to have normal encounters and to receive the tremendous support that I have.
      Thanks to all who offer support!
      24

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  15. Best wishes to you, 24. Your story, thoughtful writing, and great attitude are no doubt an inspiration to many readers of this blog, and will be for a long time to come. There’s no much more to say, as the other commenters here have said it so well already.

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  16. 24, first of all good for you. I also grew up in the OALC but haven't believed in quite a number of years. I occasionally attend to see a few old friends but my contact is minimal. Something that took me a while to learn after leaving was-really taking responsibility for my actions and believing that I could change myself for the better. This may not really seem that mind-blowing but think about the way we were taught about our natures. Sin wrapped in skin without the possibility to do anything except cleanse every Sunday on the alter. Quite a few people that I know that leave usually take a big dump,choices wise, and end up in bad situations and return to church hat-in-hand. It's tough to transition from a world in which everything makes sense and there is clear meaning to life and death to world that is huge and chaotic and you're no longer 'one of the select few'. So make good friends, do good work, and most importantly don't live in fear.

    -29

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    1. Thank you, I will surely do my best. I aim to make good choices and strive to live a life that is full. Leaving in a smart, concious way is definitely going to benefit me, rather than those that yes, those who go out with a bang and return with a hung head.

      I'm in central MN if anybody is ever interested in meeting up :)

      -24

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  17. It's to bad that the Laestadian movement has "brain washed" so many people including myself for so long. I gave the Laestadian movement nearly 50 spiritually unprofitable years. finally after leaving I began reading the Bible for myself. Why did'nt I read the Bible for myself? I still can't answer that. Come to find out the Bible say's Jesus paid for our sin's once for all time and for all people. Further more the main salvation verse in the Bible says "confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead". The confession is "to agree with God that Jesus is Lord and Savior."Ofcourse we have to know that we are sinners but confessing each sin becomes a work, not acceptable. God wants us to trust in Jesus, end of story. The people in the Laestadian movement pews are lucky in one respect we all know that we are sinners and we all know the Blood of Jesus will cleanse us, but we must apply it by trusting in Jesus alone, but we cannot benefit by trusting in any church. It took 50 years for me to know how to be saved. Go ahead get the "right church monkey" of your back and trust in Jesus only, if you are able you will be surprised.

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    1. Such a good text ! I wish people were reading Laestadius himself much more and, as you put it, get the "right church monkey" off their backs. I have ended up talking about the true blood of Jesus and about Laestadius own writings, rather than any church formation called laestadian.
      I live in northern Sweden,by the way.

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  18. Can't you see it? The root of the Apostolic Lutheran, Laestadian problem came right out of your mouth and you think it is the solution. The right church curse comes with following man' writings.Laestadian isn't on God's radar. Luther isn't on god's radar.We must get our text straight from the Bible and leave man out of it. Jesus and the cross and his grace is on God's mind, we must respond to that...-..---

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    1. I'm not so sure if Brother Thomas means that we should be reading Laestadius more for his interpretation. I took it to mean this: If we were to read Laestadius himself, we would lose the fallacy that Laestadius in claiming salvation only among his own flock. Laestadius did not see it that way. Laestadius was in communication with other pastors in Sweden and in the world, who were part of pietistic and church reform groups. He believed that there was saved believers everywhere. If Laestadians actually read Laestadius to see if he claims anywhere that he was a special annointed prophet and his flock were God's only saved, we would not find that documented anywhere.

      --Punahilkka

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    2. Maybe not, but we sure would find a bunch of talk about "whores of babylon," forest elves, and all kinds of fire-and-brimstoney mythos! :)

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