"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Reindeer and Fighter Jets

Thursday, June 11, 2009

Reindeer and Fighter Jets

It's not everyday that reindeer, fighter jets, NATO, and the Sami people are all mentioned in the same article. So I couldn't resist passing along this article from the Christian Science Monitor (a source I highly recommend for balanced and thoughtful international news.)

In Sweden's far north, a convergence of fighter jets, reindeer, and hurt feelings

'Lapistan,' where NATO is conducting war games, is fictional. But the exercises are testing real-life relations with the Russians as well as the indigenous Sami people.


  1. ahhhh. wow. The Christian science monitor is a reliable source? I get it, I get it, I get it. You are entitled to your opinion, no doubt. Sounds a little Tom Cruise-ish.

    In no uncertain terms can I agree or support their belief system. To take just ONE topic, God gave us physicians for our benefit. And if that means taking anti-depressants-so be it!(Brooke Shields) You would treat strep throat wouldn't you?

    Neither can you earn a higher level in heaven, or otherwise.
    That is the LAST source I would call reliable. International news or not, it will be jaded by the leaders who dictate!

  2. PS, you gave me such a good laugh this morning reading your comment! Thank you! I almost fell of my chair reading this one!

    Seriously though, you're embarassing yourself. You should seriously do some research before making these kinds of comments. Then you'd know the difference between Scientology, Christian Science, and a non-sectarian Pulitzer Prize winning newspaper.

  3. Correct me if I am wrong, but the Christian Science Monitor does not have a particular POLITICAL bias either, does it, Tomte?

    I think in many ways you are trying the patience of the blog owner when you keep accusing her of favoratism. Cvow is also a steadfast conservative; Free does not agree with everything he says, yet I think he would say he has been given fair treatment here. Perhaps Free, I, and others don't especially agree with some of his political or religious ideas, but Cvow is a well-read, informed person and knows how to make a convincing argument. He does his homework. We all end up agreeing to disagree, and life goes on.


  4. LLLreader to ps and tomte: Yes, people are getting tired of you two snipping at each other. If we had a new person log on that was looking for some support, I doubt they would stick around. This issue of conservative vs. liberal has come up before, been discussed, and then we move on to something else. It's time to move on. tomte I enjoyed the article about the NATO war games. Even though the name Lapistan is causing some controversy, I found it sort of cleaver. ps if you can't accept that this site is for people of different beliefs, then you must find another place to vent your anger. It's OK that we have different views!!!!!! tomte, I know, I know--but it's a lost cause.

  5. Stranger, I did a Google search on Christian Science Monitor Bias to try to get a sense of what folks are saying about the paper on the web. CSM gets accused of being too conservative and too liberal, which in my mind makes them middle of the road.

    My own impression is that the CSM is conservative in the best sense of the word. That is, careful, well researched reporting that doesn't try to go too far beyond what the facts support.

  6. Somehow you ignore the fact of who keeps posting the thread topics. If you don't want to discuss political stuff, perhaps you should take it up with him. I am being attacked for having a different opinion- the very thing you all claim to emnrace. I find that very interesting.

    I admit,(something others don't) that it was a knee jerk reaction and yes, scientology is different then christian science. Yet after reviewing the site, I still don't agree. Would you like me to agree for the sake of agreeing or do you REALLY invite different views here? I have seen several posts by other people who have been driven off for "not doing their homework." My homework does not consist of studying to become politically correct.

    It is not my intent to offend the blog host. You state that tomtie would say he has been treated fairly. My point exactly. Others are not. I refer you to posts by others correcting tomtie for riding me.

    "Stranger, I did a Google search on Christian Science Monitor Bias to try to get a sense of what folks are saying about the paper on the web. CSM gets accused of being too conservative and too liberal, which in my mind makes them middle of the road."

    That approach is simplistic at best, and we could apply it to virtually every topic here with the exact outcome. It's called the world wide web.

  7. Personally I have avoided participating in discussions here, because the posts rarely stick to the topic...

    ps, Im sorry, but I particularly avoid you because I have found you to definately be a quick-judge-"lumper", (as I saw it written) not an asker. It is extremely tiring to consistantly have to defend myself against something you lumped me into, that has nothing to do with what I was trying to say. Please just ASK and ACCEPT and stop jumping to conclusions about my reality based on your reality!

    Its not about biases, favoritism or not allowing you to voice your opinion, for me its about you not accepting JUST WHAT I SAID, but you add to it and I have to re explain and defend myself against the miscategory you lumped me into, and thats not accepting what I said for what it was, for just me.

    Anyhow, the personal lumping and defending is too exhausting, something Ive tried to leave behind, I dont need to invite it back in again, so I have made a specific point to avoid this site for quite some time because of those reasons. Others have tried to explain to you in thier own ways, but it turns into a big, stupid mud throwing interaction and Im sitting out... thats where Ive gone, maybe others have too, I dont know. FYI

  8. a little long, but you should get the picture:


    "Go ahead and play the victim card if you want, but you have not been personally attacked by me here."


    "The only thing your "reading" proves is that YOU CAN MISREAD THE QU'RAN JUST LIKE A VIOLENT EXTREMIST MISREADS IT. not that your misreading is correct or normative for the vast majority of people who would consider the Qu'ran sacred scripture.


    "PS, sadly the assertion that different words mean exactly the same thing is JUST THE KIND OF OVERSIMPLIFICATION I'VE COME TO EXPECT FROM YOU."


    "In your opinion, Tomte. Others may not agree with your need to draw the fine yet crucial distinctions, because if not synonyms those words are certainly adjectives which can easily be used to describe the Christian's sacred text, the Holy Bible."


    "WELL IF YOU CAN'T EVEN SPELL THE WORD, why expect me to believe your unfounded claims regarding it? Or is that where faith comes in? ;-)"


    "PS, I've moved past your inability to spell. Why do you keep bringing it up? I'VE MOVED ON TO YOUR INABILITY TO READ AND COMPREHEND THE BIBLE and the postings of your fellow blog-readers."


    Show me the verse that you think says the Bible is either inerrant or infallible, and then MAYBE WE CAN DISCUSS THIS BEYOND A THIRD GRADE LEVEL."


    "Tomte, pointing out spelling errors is a distraction and avoidance of discussing the issues. Everybodi nose dat."

    you gnu what he meant, Tomte.. IF HE AGREED WITH YOU, SPELLING WOULDN'T EVEN BE MENTIONED :-)


    "IF DAVID BARTON ACTUALLY HAD A HISTORY DEGREE, maybe he would know that he can't just make stuff up and call it history."



    "Calling David Barton "one if [sic] the country's most respected historians" SHOWS IGNORANCE OF THE HIGHEST DEGREE."


    "David Barton spent 8 years as an educator and school administrator..has a massive library of tens of thousands of original writings from the Founding Era, addresses over 400 groups each year, is a consultant to state and federal legislators, helped develop textbooks, named by Time magazine as one of America's 25 most influential evangelicals, and won numerous awards...(from the website)"


    "I do strongly disagree with you, however, and believe that many of your views are SIMPLISTIC AND UNINFORMED."

  9. we've read it all before, please dont bother repeating it when we've said we dont want to hear it. move on. let it go.

  10. PS, I think you and I might agree on a lot of things, and maybe we'll agree on this too: At least we aren't married to Tomte. I'd get tired of never having the chance to have the last word lol

    That said, I stated my opinion and won't repeat myself. We all have the right to our own opinions. Whether anyone agrees with me doesn't really matter. That's my philosophy anyway :-)

  11. I haven't been on in a while. Decided to drop buy and I can't believe the hatred toward this P.S.

    Tomte sounds very condescending and holier then thou. Anon whoever you are, your post sounds bitter and you seem to refuse to acknowledge the last post by P.S.- looks like he has a point.


    I have very different views then you, but I admire your willingness to stand up to the bullying and defend your opinions. That is what this country is about, and I once thought that was what this blog was about.

  12. I've asked PS to take this off-blog many times, because I'm very aware of how sick and tired folks are getting watching us go at it.

    My biggest regret would be if someone looking to leave the Laestadian tradition found this blog and wasn't able to get the help and support they needed because of this bickerfest.

    On the other hand, when someone (i.e., PS) posts internet hoaxes as if they are fact, and makes numerous other errors on points of fact all the while acting like some expert on every subject, I am going to respond.

    Long-time readers of this blog know that this isn't some liberal/conservative thing. It's a Tomte/PS thing.

    So once again I invite PS to email me at e (dot) tomte (at) gmail (dot) com if she wants to sort this out without annoying everyone else and bringing down the general level of conversation on the blog.

  13. I have a suggestion. I think it is high time to put the whole conservative/liberal thing to bed or else move it to a political blog somewhere. A lot of us are getting mighty tired of it, but it just goes on ad nauseum. I've been around this blog a long time, and we have had many great discussions -- and the only time it gets derailed is when the Republicans and Democrats decide to go at it. Unfortunately, that seems to be an almost guaranteed way to sink the ship.

    Why don't we start a new thread and see if we can get back to the truly important stuff! Tomte posed an interesting question on one of these threads -- something about what book would you add or delete from the bible if you had the wherewithal to do so, and why. Perhaps we could have a discussion about what books of the bible we individually relate to and why -- and which ones we don't relate to, or that we find particularly confusing -- and why.


  14. Norah: Thanks, I agree.

    Anon: 10:00-

    Thank you for seeing what I see. It looks like Mr. Infallible gave another statement that I could add to my last post.

    "On the other hand, when someone (i.e., PS) posts internet hoaxes as if they are fact, and makes numerous other errors on points of fact all the while acting like some expert on every subject, I am going to respond"

    I think he is wrong again on this comment: "Long-time readers of this blog know that this isn't some
    liberal/conservative thing. It's a Tomte/PS thing. CVOW posted that he thought it was. Perhaps he is not infallible after all.

    "Go ahead and play the victim card if you want, but you have not been personally attacked by me here."

    It would be very nice if I could post my thoughts without being personally attacked.

    Another topic would be GREAT, even if I don't agree with the sources sited in it.

  15. I just checked my inbox, and no email from PS yet.

  16. cvow, I will have to sit that one out only because I still consider myself not very familiar with the bible.

    Ive started reading it right from the beginning because I love history. Every week we read until we feel like stopping then find one verse to memorize and ponder for the week. Its been very enlightening. Although Im not trying overly hard to "get something out of it" just enjoying reading.

    Someday, I would love to explore further the works other churches/religions/people have that are from the same time but were not included and expand my history lesson, but Ive found that if I take it too fast, I dont get anything out of it anyways and I might as well start over :p

    I would still love to hear others answers though, what do you have to say?

  17. P.S.

    Let me be clear. I do not agree with many of your opinions. Some would call me left wing. However, I believe you have the right to express them without personal attack. Most reputable sites do not allow this sort of thing.

  18. hp3, it was just a suggestion, and I'd be happy to get into any topic that actually has a religion base to it! I think we did have a discussion long ago about reading the Bible, and suggested ways to do that (usually not just starting with Genesis and plowing through it in the order it has been laid out in.)

    Would you have any ideas about a good topic? Anyone?

  19. LLLreader to cvow: I don't know if this is a topic that could go anywhere, but I have been reading about North Korea and their leader Kim Jong. The estimate of two million people starving to death in that country is horrifying. This happens while Kim Jong leads a life of excess. The people are totally isolated and know only that the leader is a God. They actually believe that when he was born rainbows appeared. When his father died a thousand cranes swooped down to carry him away, but since the people were so sad, they decided to leave him on earth so that people could pay homage. That is the kind of thinking that can be taught if people are given the same message over and over since birth. If I were told that the OALC was the only true church, that Laestadius was the true teacher, and my forgivness of sins had to happen only in the OALC, without anything to compare it to--then thats probably what I would believe. By being warned that the people of the world are "bad" and I could lose my salvation in a moment, then like the North Koreans, I would be afraid to believe anything else. The situation with the N. Koreans is much worse, people being killed etc., but I sure see some common ground.

  20. LLLreader, I can see the common ground you speak of. Spiritual or not, brainwashing seems to happen the same way with similar outcomes, and the fear is so powerful! Its quite interesting to hear individual experiences on how we were able to conquer that fear.

    cvow: I still read the rest of the bible by following along the scriptures used on a Sunday, but Im making a point to also read the rest of it that I have never touched on before so I can have more of a well rounded exposure to the bible, and so that I can understand the OT referencse made in the NT. When else would I read through Genesis and Numbers etc :p

  21. The article points out how complicated the world situation is, and it's too bad that the Arctic area is a battleground, of sorts. There are YouTube videos which chronicle conflicts with logging in the Arctic and how logging affects indigenous people there. For every position there is a counter-position. Are war games justified? Should Russia be extending its reach into the Arctic? Will Sweden and Finland continue to be neutral? How does logging affect the reindeer herds? How does oil exploration figure into all of this? Is the name 'Lapistan' insulting to the Muslims in Sweden?

    So many questions. Heading back outside to the garden, where things are simpler :-)

  22. I am anon Jun 13 1208.

    I don’t believe I criticized PS’s expression of her opinions or even voiced if I agree or disagree with her opinion, and I certainly don’t hate her. She is absolutely free to express herself and her views as passionately as she wants to!

    What I tried to convey is that I dislike her extensions, and conclusions, of others opinions: for example taking a statement by someone and concluding that they are and calling them Anti American, or accusing them of allowing everything, or having no discrepancy between right and wrong anymore, or “figuring out” or “knowing” their views on homosexuality etc. Those are such far reaching conclusions she too quickly jumps to and accuses people of, and then those trying to simply state their opinions and participate in a civil sharing, have little choice but to defend themselves and the misconception she has painted them with. She just needs to state her opinions and listen to others and leave the name calling, conclusion jumping and “lumping” out of it. I dont think thats being too hard on her.

    If I sound bitter its because I don’t like people doing that to me or others. I grew up being “told” what my opinions meant, the oalc people I still know, still do that to me. Its disrespectful, rude and conversation killing to say the least. Its definitely not dinner table manners as free has tried to establish here.

  23. Anon 9:17, I think that participating here is going to benefit PS (and all of us, really).. It helps us refine our positions and to understand the ways we might be opposed, and why. I know the years spent online has helped me. Over time it becomes less personal and you begin to understand where other people are coming from more easily. Seeing your own words in black and white and having to back them up is a good exercise! lol

  24. Im comfortable refining my position, just ask me to, dont do it for me and tell me about it.

  25. I noticed in PS's last response, she included things said to her to defend herself, but conveniently forgot to include what she said to others...