"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Church Attendance & Torture Approval Connection

Tuesday, May 05, 2009

Church Attendance & Torture Approval Connection

First I want to thank Ex-FALC for sharing her story. I hope we hear good news soon about her husband's cousin, kidnapped in Mexico.

Following is an article arguing that people are drawn to either authority or partnership (no matter what they call their "beliefs").

What do you think?

"In case you missed it, Pew released survey data showing that the more frequently someone went to church, the more likely they were to approve of torture. (So much for total depravity on the outside.) Church attendance in this case may be a proxy for conservative religious belief. Of the groups surveyed, Evangelical Christians were most likely to think that torture is often or sometimes ok (62%), followed by Catholics (51%), followed by mainline Protestants (46%). Nonbelievers were least likely to agree (40%)."


  1. What is torture? Chopping off fingers, dislocating joints, even physical pain is torture. Certainly John Mccain was tortured in Vietnam when nearly every bone in his body was broken. I feel that if waterboarding, cold rooms, sleep deprivation, and harmless insects save American lives, the president should have that option at his disposal and to use it to gain valuable information. These things are not known as a FACT to be torture. Only opinion. The Daily Kos prints that article because they lean far-left and far-left people typically like to denigrate christians, and are opposed to making terrorists feel uncomfortable. I am an evangelical Christian, I oppose torture, and disagree with John Mccain on this issue.

  2. It's not "torture". Terrorists SHOULD be made to feel uncomfortable. I am uncomfortable with 9/11. And all the other terrorists attacks around the world. Most anything should be acceptable to gain info to save lives. And the rules of engagement should be changed. Our soldiers hands are tied.

    Political correctness is out of control. There would not be one person who lost a family member or close friend due to terrorist attack that would disagree.

    And it has nothing to due with being a christian or not. It has to do with common sense, right and wrong and protecting innocent people.

  3. Well said, anonymous! I am so sick of these people with a pre-911 mentality. If we get hit again, Obama and all the terrorist apolagists will have blood on their hands.

  4. Don't you think it's quite naive to believe that torture brings forth the truth? Won't the torture victims tell just about anything, whether they know anything or not, just to be spared from any further torture? I don't think the severity of the torture method used plays any role in this regard.

  5. Hibernatus from anon 9:46-

    I beg to differ. It is because of all the so called torture that there has not been another attack on America. We have gotten valuable information using these methods.

    Unfortunatly, under the new administration we may not be so safe. I think it is a crime to release classified info and to try and go after our leaders who have worked tirelesly to serve and protect. Now THAT is naieve.

    Your name or your mother's name may be on their list. That hotel your staying in, that bus your on. Is that o.k. with you?

    I wish every day the news would play the images of people jumping from the towers, the phone calls from the victims to their love ones as they faced burning to death. The bombings in other countries and pictures of the terrorists celebrating.

    America was changed forever that day. Do you like taking your shoes off at the airport, waiting for hours in line? Never before was every bag checked at events, going thru scanners to enter buildings...

    We have lost some of our freedoms because of THEM. I HATE it when people look at the USA as THE PROBLEM- not the criminals. To those people I say, feel free to move to the middle east where they embrace your ideals.

    I am going to give myself a blog i.d. this gets hard to keep all the anon sorted out. So from now on I will be P.S.

  6. ex-falc says...

    Or just move to Mexico...Where your kids can get kidnapped. I agree with the last poster. Now is not the time to be politically correct. The only way these people will stop terrorizing Americans and others around the world is if they have a reason to stop. If they don't have to fear torture, what do they have to fear?

  7. LLLreader gasps: Good grief!!! Give me one solid piece of evidence that torture has helped make us safer! We are safer because of having to take our shoes off, and the other measures our country has taken to protect us. But torture--please! That's not what we stand for, our country was not founded on that principle. When pictures are sent around the world of detainees being tortured, it hurts our standing in the world. We don't need, or want, to be like those countries that torture. What would be the point of showing the Twin Towers every day--it would keep everyone afraid and angry. Sarah P. would like it, but she is one mean little ol' gal. She would probably like to be pouring the water for the waterboarding. Now that should get some of you conservatives riled up!

  8. ex falc says...

    Then what would be a good solution to protect our country? We need some method of obtaining intelligence of foreign terrorist operations. I am saying this with an open mind because I don't really know what a good solution is.

    I think this is an issue that should not be politicized. It should be left in the hands of the United States military. I do not feel that I would be able to have a solid opinion on this issue unless I had a specific situation laid out before me and was asked what option would be best.

    It seems to me that every situation the military faces is different. Each situation has different circumstances with different options. Could a absolutely no torture policy fit all situations they might come accross?

    Also, I happen to be a moderate conservative, mostly for my economic views. I am liberal on issues like women's rights. I don't get too "fired up" by liberal comments/opinions. :) If I can have a healthy discussion with the other side of the aisle without one side refusing to listen to the other's opinion, thats great progress. It's not that way in the FALC or OALC.

  9. George Tenant, who was appointed by Bill Clinton to be CIA director and also served under Bush, said we gained valuable intelligence through enhanced interrogation. So did other high profile gov. officials.
    Since Obama released the classified intelligence about our interrogations, why doesn't he authorize the release of the memos that prove we gained valuable info from it? The crazy leftists in this country are undermining our country and are siding with the terrorists who are trying to kill as many of us as they can. I AM SICK OF IT! I will never be on the side of a terrorist, and if he gets his face wet, who the hell cares? That is what you should be saying "good grief" to.
    But first, you would have to understand that harmless insects, and waterboarding are not torture. WAKE UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  10. YEAH! Who the hell cares if he gets his face wet!! Preach it Patriot. Thanks for the laugh.

    Anon 10:38- FYI: It's not just a conservative issue. People on both sides of the aisle just so happen to agree and VOTE for securing our nation.

    I see you miss the point entirely. We are safer because we take our shoes off?!! We take our shoes off because crazy, phsyco, blood loving terrorists killed thousands of innocent Americans, in the name of their God. Oh, and all the virgins they will get for doing their dasterdley deeds.

    I invite you to review our history/founding fathers- what America was REALLY founded on. And Bill Clinton doesn't count. Every war- since the beggining of time was won by info on the enemy. Where they march, how they think and who their leaders are. Perhaps you could invite them to tea?

    Our standing in the world is we are the greatest, strongest, life giving nation ever. Do you really care what Kim Jong from Korea thinks of us?!

    They are not done. I will meet you back here after their next attack.

  11. you think the rest of the world thinks the US is the greatest, and strongest nation? Well, your wrong there. More like power hungry, and conceited.

  12. LLLreader: Let's see now--Tenet was one who assured Pres. Bush that weapons of mass destruction were in Iraq. He later wrote a book blasting the Bush administration for making him the fall guy for getting us into the war. Who would you believe, the Bush White House, or Tenet? Frankly, I wouldn't have bought a used car from any of that gang. I don't get your point about the shoe thing-some nut had a shoe bomb, now shoes are checked because some other idiot might decide to make another shoe bomb. Seems to me it makes a flight safer. I know, taking your shoes off may seem a little sissy to a macho guy who wants to go in with machine guns blasting. I remember Bush with his cowboy stance saying , "Bring it on". That kind of stuff doesn't work in the world anymore. I remember Palin saying, "I wish, just once, that Obama would say "We want to win"." Winning isn't going to make it--we are in a powder keg of a world now. Looking for solutions with other countries, pushing for discussion, and finding common ground is the only thing that will save us. We have to form alliances. The vast majority of people in the world want peace, they want to go to the market, do their jobs, raise their kids--just lead their lives. Terrorists are out there, but they are not the majority. The Muslim world is not our enemy--the Muslim extremists are just that--extreme. As far as Kim Jong--yes I care what he thinks--he is extremly dangerous.

  13. Anon 7:40- You really should move out of America to the middle East where the terrorists agree with you completely. Why don't you offer YOURSELF or your MOTHER as the next sacrifice? YOU Wouldn't offer but it's ok as long as it's the next guy-not you.What you say is treason.

    Anon 9:52 (LLL reader?) The congress had the same info as President Bush. They all voted to go to war. And if you were really concerned with huamanity you would be glad the likes of Hussain is gone and the Iraqi people have a chance to live without fear.

    Find commom ground? that's the most profound thing you've said yet. We don't have common ground with terorists/nations. Kill innocents, women without rights? Allah?

    Point missed on the shoe thing for sure. It's not being macho. It is because of the terrorists our lives are changed forever. Guess you don't want to see it. OR you are o.k. with it.Which seems to be the case.

    What in the world do we have in common with Kin Jong- a wacko, oppresive communist who to date has had tea with several leaders yet still wildy aims missles at the US. He has no concern for human dignity and rights, never mind human life. And you think that can be reasoned with?

    Get off the Bush train people. Your lovely Hilary and 99% of the others were pro war. So far we have had no further attack while under the Bush reign. You should thank him AND his administration. Obama Hussain Barrack however, is so clueless. God help us all. (not allah)

  14. Oh, how I love a good political and religious discussion! First off, I think it was a bad move for Obama's administration to release all of that information in the first place. I think it was a move for political reasons only and he got in WAY over his head.

    Most of the time, there isn't a lot of valuable information to be gained with torture. A person, who feels they are on the brink of death after having near drowning experiences time and time again, will tell their captors whatever they think they want to hear. This is proven and even John McCain, a victim of torture himself, doesn't agree with vicious forms of torture such as waterboarding. I'm not completely sure yet what my opinion is on the matter.

    Am I surprised that there's a correlation between church attendance and torture? In a way I am. I would think it would have more to do with what political party a person is. My spouse is a staunch Republican and in favor of torture if necessary, I'm a moderate and not crazy about the idea.

    Maybe if you frequently attend a church where there's a lot of focus on hell and damnation, you unconsciously find it easier to pass harsh judgements on others? If you aren't a church-goer, maybe you don't think about that stuff as often. I'm not saying that's true- I'm just thinking aloud here!
    Hmm... interesting things to ponder. :)

    -On the fence

  15. LLLreader: "Treason"? "Move out of the country"? In case you have forgotten, freedom of speech is one of our basic rights. I love this country! I think we have made mistakes, and I know I can say that without fear of being hung for treason, (unless it's by some guy on this blog). I don't think we can reason with a nut case like the leader of North Korea and I didn't say we could--I said he is dangerous. He is also dangerous to his own people. As far as Hussein--he was a terrible dictator, his sons were allowed to rape young girls at will. One time he didn't like an answer one of his generals gave, so he had the man chopped up and brought in a bag to his wife. Terrible man, but he wasn't a threat to our country. We focused on him, and not on Bin Laden, where we should have been looking. Now Bin Laden is still alive and still running his organization. The Congress voted to go to war based on the information given to them by the Bush administration. After 911 there was a feeling of having to get even with someone. The focus should have stayed on Bin Laden. I'm not saying we can reason with unreasonable leaders, what I am saying is that we have to build alliances wherever we can. The world is too much of a powder keg--we can't go around bossing other countries around. We need alliances like never before. These are my opinions.

  16. This is Anon 7:40 responding to PS:

    PS says-Anon 7:40- You really should move out of America to the middle East where the terrorists agree with you completely. Why don't you offer YOURSELF or your MOTHER as the next sacrifice? YOU Wouldn't offer but it's ok as long as it's the next guy-not you.What you say is treason.

    Ps- first of all, I don't live in america, and 2nd of all, I didn't say about terrorists or any of that. All I said was that other countries do not see the US as the greatest and strongest country. I did not tell you any opinion to do with anything else.

    I agree with lllreader, you gotta get some allies!

  17. Yea, fine we need allies. How about we keep the ones we have like Great Britain? I am so sick of these people apologizing for America and re-inventing the meaning of torture. Waterboarding is a vicious form of torture? What planet are you on? It is splashing WATER on on a crazy lunatic who would love to kill YOU! Just because the media defines torture a certain way, doesn't mean that is what it is. I can barely tolerate conversing with drones that cant use reason and logic to protect this country. Typically, the subject is changed and they start talking about George Bush or Sara Palin.
    Look up all the ground rules they were under when they were waterboarding Abdul Yaba Daba Do, and tell me that was vicious torture. Time limits, doctors present, no pain was ever administered.
    Time to get real, folks.

  18. response to Patriot:

    I love America. I am a moderate conservative. I have family members in the military. I fly the red, white and blue. And...

    Yes, I feel that waterboarding is a vicious form of torture or I wouldn't have written that. It is not merely splashing water on one's face, though you already know that. It is designed to cause a psychological and physical response in the body that makes the person panic and feel as though they are going to drown. CIA agents lasted 14 seconds while training for this before begging confessions. THE MEMOS state that it is to be used no longer than 40 seconds in a row before giving the individual a break. During this time, water is continually poured over the cloth on their face that is covering both their nose and mouth. The individual is allowed three or four breaths after and the torture can then be repeated. According to THE MEMOS, the detainee can be subjected to water application for 12 minutes at a time in a day, for five days. Those are the FACTS. I'm guessing that if any of us were to be subjected to waterboarding, we may disagree with Patriot about it being a painless procedure. Because "no pain was ever administered"?

    These radical terrorists do not operate with the same morals and values of our allies and friends and I hope that we can someday not fear them as we've come to. I realize that they might be "crazy lunatics who would love to kill me" but that doesn't make me agree with this particular form of torture.

    - On the fence

  19. LLLreader doesn't give it up: I decided I better get some information about waterboarding. It has been around since the 14th Century. It has been known as water torture, water cure, or tormenta de toea. It causes great physical and mental suffering, but leaves no marks on the body. Around 1800, as Enlightenment swept across Europe, many countries banned the practice and people in general found it "morally repugnant". It was used by the Japanese in WWII and the Khmer Rogue in Cambodia. In the 1970's it was used by the military dictatorships in Chile and Argentina, where it was known as Asian Torture. Here is what I found interesting. (1) During the Spanish American War a US Major was suspended from duty for water boarding. The Army Judge Advocate recommended the charges because "The US cannot afford to sanction torture". (2) In 1947 the US charged a Japanese officer, Yukio Asano, with war crimes for water boarding a US civilian. He was sentenced to 15 years of hard labor. (3) In 1968 a US soldier was pictured waterboarding a North Vietnamese soldier. The photo led to an Army investigation and a court martial of the US serviceman. If you doubt that water boarding is torture, read articles written by Malcome Nance. He is the former Master Instructor & Chief of Training at the US Navy Survival, Evasion, Resistance & Escape School SERE. He has taught waterboarding to hundreds of men, and his description of it's effects leave no doubt that it is indeed torture. I'm going to bow out of this exchange with good ol' boy Patriot now. It's been fun.

  20. Even the Southern Baptists are taking a stand. Better late than never, eh?

    "There are some things you should never do to another human being, no matter how horrific the things they have done. If you do so, you demean yourself to their level," said Richard Land, president of the SBC's Ethics & Religious Liberty Commission.

    He said there is no circumstance in which torture should be permissible in interrogations by U.S. officials, even if the authorities believe a prisoner has information that might involve national security.

    "I don't agree with the belief that we should use any means necessary to extract information," said Land. "I believe there are absolutes. There are things we must never do under any circumstances.

    "For me the ultimate test is: Could I, in good conscience, do whatever I am authorizing or condoning others to do? If not, then I must oppose the action. If I could not waterboard someone--and I couldn't--then I must oppose its practice."

    Land said he considers waterboarding to be torture because the definition of torture includes the determination of whether a procedure causes permanent physical harm, noting he is unable to "separate physical from psychological harm" in this instance. The practice contravenes an individual's personhood and their humanity, he said.

    "It violates everything we believe in as a country," Land said, reflecting on the words in the Declaration of Independence: that "all men are created equal" and that "they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights."

    "Civilized countries should err on the side of caution. It does cost us something to play by different rules than our enemies, but it would cost us far more if we played by their rules," Land concluded.

  21. Anon 11:33- Interesting thoughts to ponder, let me say this. I do not attend a church that teaches/preaches hellfire-damination. In fact, I attend a very progressive, modern (in theatrics- not scripture)non demoninational christian church.

    Anon 9:43- unalienable rights are for those who live according to the law of humanity. Furthermore, these terrorists are not Americans, just out to kill us. Let's call a spade a spade.

    Anon 1:20- I am sorry you don't live in the greatest nation in the world. We provide food and humanitarian need to almost every other country. Even to our enemies. No other country gives as we do. No other country has the freedoms that we do. PLease do not accept our kindness and then turn and spit in our face. By the way, Hussain (not Obama-Sudam) got a fair trial and got less then he deserved. An eye for an eye...

    IF YOU COULD SAVE YOURSELF OR FAMILY MEMBER by waterboarding- you had the choice, die or waterboard...everyone of you would go with "torture."

    No comment to both sides voting for war?

    My son is in the Air Force so you can sleep peacably at night.

  22. Oh geez PS, you really do think the US is above every other country, don't you? That just proves my point, you are full of yourselves! I know lots of nice Americans (so, sorry for grouping you all together) but quite a few not so nice ones, too. I'm happy to live where I do right now. Theres no recession, we have every freedom possible, and even free health care!There are lots of countries that have the same freedoms that you do. WOW! And to my knowledge, we have not taken any handouts from the US. So what are you talking about? I think you need to calm down and answer rationally.

  23. There are two hugely important unstated assumptions in most of these posts and in many of the pronouncements by leaders that posters have cited.

    The first unstated assumption is that the person being tortured/interrogated is in fact a terrorist or even knows something of value. We have criminal trials in our own society for an excellent
    reason: to find out, to the extent possible (and it's not always
    possible) whether or not the person accused is the person who committed
    the crime. You can't ASSUME that the person you have in custody has
    done anything or knows anything.

    The second unstated assumption is that, if indeed valuable information was extracted from this person under torture, that same information would never have been available if the person were interrogated in legal
    ways. This is a mistaken idea: It is a well known fact, which I invite everyone to investigate on their own, that legal ways of interrogation work much better than torture. Doing it the right way is not less
    effective; it is more effective.

    Reread these posts with those two ideas in mind.


  24. anon from another country:

    I hope your as proud of your country as I am of mine. I invite you to research whether we have provide aid to your country in any way. I bet we have. And if you're from Canada we treat tens of thousands of your free health care people each year. Coincidently, It was on the morning news today about a guy who was permanatly disabled because he was in line for basic surgery for a simple soccer injury. They told of several more stories...to many to list. You could however, google it. NOTHING is FREE, just look at your taxes. By the way, I don't begrudge helping other countries. I am glad we can help.

    Since when is patriotism and protectionism irrational? Why are you on this presumedly mostly American blog throwing digs at our country?

    Assuming once again you are from Canada, Tony Blair did a great job alongside President Bush.

    In regard to waterboarding, it is topic because of it being done to terrorists. I wouldn't have a problem it being done to anybody if it could save lives. Which it has. They don't randomly waterboard anyway. They have a real good idea who and why. Dimplomacy is used first. How can you reason with a group who staunchly beleive they are serving their allah and will gain untold virgins by mass murdering? The answer is you can't.

    Simple question-simple answer. A yes or no sorta thing:

    If you and your family were being stalked and were going to be shot tommorow, would you agree to waterboarding?

    How about your whole neighborhood?
    Your whole city?

    You have couple of hours to find the killers? would you agree?

    Yes or No? Just, Yes or No?

  25. PS, if it were proven that waterboarding does the very opposite of eliciting lifesaving information, but instead elicits lies and creates greater risk, short- and longterm, would that proof satisfy? I doubt it.

    (By the way, this is a Swedish blog.)

  26. PS,

    I am not trying to diss your country. I am defending other countries. You were saying earlier that the US is the greatest country, and I was pointing out that there are other countries that are just as good. There are other countries that send help to countries in need also. And about the health care issue, no it's not completely free. My personal opinion is that I'd rather pay a little extra on my taxes, than pay a huge hospital bill, or a big insurance bill. I was hospitalized for almost a month earlier last year, which would have cost 100's of thousands considering everything I needed done (surgery, and about 10 diff. ultrasounds, MRI's, and xrays). So, a few thousand dollars worth of taxes per year, to me, is well worth it. . But I know it is a matter of personal opinion, and that is only my opinion. I'm sure private health care works great for lots of people, and "free" health care doesn't always work too. I googled it, and yes, I know that there are people that go down to the US from Canada, to get things done that they would have to wait for here. There are also people in the US that go to Canada to get treatments done that they cannot afford to get done in the US. But anyways, we're getting a little bit off topic here.

    I was not trying to knock the US, only remind you that there are other well-off, helping, life giving countries besides the US. I hope I did not offend you, because that is not what I was trying to do.

    -person from another country

  27. I don't believe that torture is a solution for anything. I don't believe that you are going to get the "truth" out of anyone by torturing them. And I get tired of hearing people say things like, "Well what if that were the only way to save your family?" Since when? Tell me when that is ever going to be a reality.

    That is a hypothetical situation, and it's illogical to use that reasoning to support an act of torture on another human being. It is immoral. I give President Obama a standing ovation for his stand on waterboarding. He gets a Woot Woot from me!

  28. Anon 12:49-

    As it happens, I am scandinavian thru snd thru. I beleive the host of this blog lives in America, as do I. The proof lies in the fact that we have had no more attacks in our country since 9/11...despite videos and threats from Bin Laden and his clan. How's that for proof?

    Another country-

    I know there are lots of great countries in this world. Including yours. I am just tired of people who don't appreciate the blessings and freedoms we have. When did it happen that our concern would be for the perps instead of the victims? Not just the thousands that have died- we are all victims. Our lives changed forever that day. It is unbelieveable that classified info has been released and witch hunters now want to prosecute the very people that have kept them safe. It's not for lack of want on the terrorists part but diligence on our leaders part.


    Nothing hypothetical about it. Your family may have been saved due to water boarding. Saved from one of the many taped threats Bin Laden has sent since 9/11 and from many of the ones we haven't been privy to.

    Ask those that lost loved ones in terrorist attacks if getting info by water boarding would have saved their spouse, child, mother, father, grandmother, grandfather, friend, aunt, uncle, brother, sister...ask them if they would have said "don't do it, it's to cruel."

    And THAT is where it is a family matter. It has already been a reality. Time to take the blinders off.

  29. PS- When did I say that I didn't appreciate my freedom and blessings? I sure do appreciate living where I do, the freedoms we have, and all the blessings we've been give here. You said "no other country gives as we do", and "no other country has the freedoms we do". I was only trying to remind you that there are lots of countries with the same freedoms as the US, and lots of countries that give to countries in need, too. You were sounding asif you think your countries is above every other one, and that there are no countries as good as yours, and I felt the need to defend my country, and every other country that is just as good as the US.

    Since you've already assumed that I'm against you on the torture topic, I'll tell you where I stand. I think that torture may sometimes work, but that does not make it right. I don't think it works all the time either, and that it makes people make false confessions. I watched a documentry on the discovery channel not to long ago about Guantanamo bay where recent investigations have shown that many of the detainees were tortured into making false confessions. That is not right. The senior Army SERE psychologist warned in 2002 against using SERE training techniques (which used to include waterboarding) saying that it only decreases the amount of accurate information. When someone is hurting you, and you can hardly stand the pain anymore, what are you going to do? Most likely you are going to do whatever you can to make it stop, even if that means telling the torturer what you think they want to hear. How would you feel if that was your family? What if your family was locked up for years because they were tortured into making a false confession? Would your opinion on torture change then?

    -anon from another country

  30. Another Country-

    I did not mean to sound as tho I was accusing you of being ungrateful. I was talking in general where it has become politically correct to blame our country- as though we are the demons.

    I remain Proud to be an American. Doesn't make me a hater of other countries. I think my husband is the greatest and yet I don't hate other men.

    If my family were involved or connected in any way to terrorism, then so be it. My opinion wouldn't change. I would still love them and probably feel bad for them. The rules don't change because they are my family.

    Guess we better agree to disagee at this point. Nice chatting with you!

  31. Whiles this thread appears to be mainly about political torture, I would like to address the original question regarding people being drawn to either authority or partnerships...

    I dont know what other options there are, but that certainly seems to be true. I wonder how much of that is based on a person's view of God -either loving or angry. He is both, but most rarely embrace Him as a whole, but rather focus just on the anger or just on the love. Only Law or Only Grace... Only Old Testament or Only New Testament. We certainly do seem to be extremists by nature :p

    I think, and I certainly could be wrong, but I think the more well rounded a person is, the more likely it is they will be drawn towards partnership and the more sheltered would be inclined to be drawn to authority. My experiences and my interpretations of others' experiences lead me to believe this.

    I would wonder about the survey connecting frequent church attendance with church denomination - that statement doesnt reflect the data given. How often to each of those denominations attend church? That seems like an inflammitory statement with no supporting evidence. Although, anyone who has taken statistics of any kind know they can really get just about any "outcome" they want...

    For myself, the more I read the bible, or attend church, the more I am exposed to God -his love and his wrath. In the Old Testament, God seemed fine to let people suffer for thier sins, even make a point to destroy them, when they were disobedient to the guidelines He set for them. So maybe as Christians we adopt that consequences are ok.

    What we have to remember is that God is the one who made the point to dole out destruction, and man should not try to take on that role. Man's role is to forgive, even if the sinner doesnt ask.

    Im not sure at all how that fits into protecting oneself from an attack, one's country, with an unbeliever (in God or Christ), or with someone who has no remorse over sin and no intention of asking forgiveness. Im certain God addresses that, but I havent found it yet.

  32. Ex-FALC
    Thank you for sharing your story, I have enjoyed reading your comments, hearing differences and similarities between our individual experiences is always comforting to me.

    I pray for each one on our journey towards God through Christ, that we will continually seek Him in all we do.

  33. ps-Thankyou for clearing that up, it really was sound like you didn't like any other countries and were niave enough to think that the US was the only free, giving country.

    I also think my husband is the greatest :P So we agree on one thing hehe

    yes, time to agree to disagree. Good chatting.

    -from another country

  34. ex falc says...

    To everyone who sent their prayers to my husband's family in Mexico, thank you. God does miracles and I believe in the power of prayer. I just wanted to let you all know that he was let go, somewhere in the mountains. He had to walk 4 hours to get home but he is now home and safe with his family. Praise the lord! Part of the reason he may have been let go was because the community rallied behind him and refused to back down. The drug cartels do not want media attention. I cannot imagine being 16 and having to go through what he went through this left week. I also pray that he will have the stregth to recover from all of this and live a happy, normal life. I was expecting the worst, but had a small bit of hope that he would be let go unharmed, and he was!

  35. Thats great news, I'm happy to hear that he's safe!

  36. I have been reading these posts with interest. I wonder if Patriot is a new poster or has been writing to us under a different name.

    I listened to Robert Baer (formerly of the CIA) on NPR today. Some comments struck me as pertinent to this on-going discussion: Our moral superiority will win this conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan. We do not need to engage them at their level. Torture has never worked. There is no documentation (in CIA or FBI records) that any information deemed vital or necessary to our cause was gained through torture. Two hundred people have died because of our interrogation techniques in the Middle East.(I must double check this piece of information.) Baer, or Ted Koppel, I'm not sure which, said even ONE is TOO MANY.

    I think that speaks volumes, Patriot. I feel sad, rather than angry, when I read your postings. Our human race has SO far to go... but we've come a long way, too. Not everyone believes as you do so there is hope. SISU

  37. I can't believe I am jumping back in here. The irony is to great to miss. I work at the front desk at a hotel in a large metropolis.

    We just had a meeting brought to us by the Bureau of Justice Assistance on preventing terrorist activities in Hotels- based on behavior profiling, not racial for those who protest.

    Along with a long list of tips we were given some handouts on terrorist activities in Hotels...in the last year alone. Some you may be familiar with:

    Jan. 1, 2009: Pakistan,
    Nov. 26-29: Mubai, India
    Sept. 20, 2008 Islamabad, Pakistan
    Aug. 24-26: DENVER, COLORADO
    Aug. 18, 2008 SAN FRANSISCO, CA.
    Aug. 11, 2008: DENVER, COLORADO
    Aug. 4-2008: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
    July. 21, 2008: S.F. CALIFORNIA
    April 16, 2008: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
    Jan. 15, 2008: Beruit, Lebanon

    And these are only the ones we know about!!

    Anon 1:11- National Public Radio is not my choice for reliable information. It is as liberal and left wing as you can get. They don't even CONSIDER the other side...another way.

    Bring it on Patriot! Use any I.D. you like. Doesn't make your points less valid!

  38. I can't believe I am jumping back in here. The irony is to great to miss. I work at the front desk at a hotel in a large metropolis.

    We just had a meeting brought to us by the Bureau of Justice Assistance on preventing terrorist activities in Hotels- based on behavior profiling, not racial for those who protest.

    Along with a long list of tips we were given some handouts on terrorist activities in Hotels...in the last year alone. Some you may be familiar with:

    Jan. 1, 2009: Pakistan,
    Nov. 26-29: Mubai, India
    Sept. 20, 2008 Islamabad, Pakistan
    Aug. 24-26: DENVER, COLORADO
    Aug. 18, 2008 SAN FRANSISCO, CA.
    Aug. 11, 2008: DENVER, COLORADO
    Aug. 4-2008: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
    July. 21, 2008: S.F. CALIFORNIA
    April 16, 2008: LAS VEGAS, NEVADA
    Jan. 15, 2008: Beruit, Lebanon

    And these are only the ones we know about!!

    Anon 1:11- National Public Radio is not my choice for reliable information. It is as liberal and left wing as you can get. They don't even CONSIDER the other side...another way.

    Bring it on Patriot! Use any I.D. you like. Doesn't make your points less valid!

  39. ex-falc says...

    To everyone who has read Escape by Carolyn Jessop...did you know their is a court hearing going on right now because she is suing her former husband to get child support for her 8 kids. Apparently, when people leave the FLDS, many of them actually have to leave their kids behind. This woman made it out with her kids, but her husband's assets are hidden in some trusts that the church owns...

    Imagine that...these fathers have all these kids and don't think they have to provide for them if one of the spouses wants out of the church.

    Has anyone seen an instance in the OALC church or related churches where their was a divorce and one spouse stayed in the church and refused to support their children? It's amazing how sick religious fanaticism can get. The ones loosing out here are the children.

    More information about this case on this link...

  40. Watched a lifetime movie last night- I believe it was on her life. Very condensed tho, but about a polygomous woman. It might have been based on "His Favorite Wife." Yeah, I think that was it. I was trying to stay awake to finish it.

  41. May 14, 2009
    Hello Manager of the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church/ LLL website,

    I was born and married into the Apostolic Lutheran Church and have had a very difficult time.

    May I email you information about my situation? I need your help.
    Thank you,

  42. M*R*
    Of course you can. Email is extoot @ gmail.com (no spaces).


  43. M*R:

    I left the AP church as well. Not the OALC but the plain 'ol Ap church. For me it was a step by step process- but when I broke free... Glory, hallelujah!! I have never know the grace of God as I do now.

    It finally did not matter what my parents, family and friends thought. It mattered what I now know how God thinks. It is peace that passeth all understanding.

    I will pray for you and yours.