"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: How to Help a Friend

Tuesday, February 12, 2008

How to Help a Friend

Okay, peeps, let's try to stick to the posted topic, and ask for a new one when needed. It is getting kind of crazy around here. (Don't make me turn on the moderated comments feature!)

W writes:

I am just learning about the OALC because I have a "contraband" close friend who is a member. Could somebody help me with some ways I can nudge him in the right direction? I don't want to be pushy and make him change his beliefs, but I want him to think about what he has been taught. I have asked him to explain his beliefs but he just avoids the subject. Its so hard for me to sit back and watch him be controlled by the church. Any suggestions on how to help him will be greatly appreciated.


Welcome, W! Thanks for posting. This blog does not represent a single point of view, but a place for many to be expressed. Some of us are religious, some not. My advice like anyone else's is based on my ideals and experiences.

You might ask your friend if you could accompany him to a church service. That will open the way to conversation about it. Or you could ask him about this site (check out the links for more info about Laestadianism). Be gentle with your friend, who may know less about his church now than you do! And realize the best thing you can offer anyone is your friendship. Your daily approach to life's mysteries and moral questions will speak louder than any words.

Readers?

183 comments:

  1. I posted a response to this before it got moved...somehow it got lost in the transfer!? Editor?

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  2. My apologies. Here is RWB's response:

    What makes you think you would be "helping" him? What is the "right" direction in your opinion? The main theme of this site it that there is no "right" direction..only to do what you think is right according to what your perception or interpretation of what the Bible says and how it applies to you personally. Kind of like forming your religion to your life and not forming your life based on your religion. Maybe he is not "controlled" by the church, but is merely following what he has been taught...just as one follows what mother and dad (controlling?) have taught. What would you like explained in particular about the beliefs? Why don't you go to that church for awhile to see what it's all about? I don't think you will be "controlled" or in any way be coerced to do or not do anything you don't want to do. Maybe that would help you understand him and his beliefs better.

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  3. RWB makes a good point. Insert some other 'ism' in place of "OALC" and see how it looks and sounds. For example, "liberalism".

    "I am just learning about liberalism because I have a "contraband" close friend who is a liberal. Could somebody help me with some ways I can nudge him in the right direction? I don't want to be pushy and make him change his beliefs, but I want him to think about what he has been taught. I have asked him to explain his beliefs but he just avoids the subject. Its so hard for me to sit back and watch him be controlled by liberalism. Any suggestions on how to help him will be greatly appreciated."

    The same technique could be applied to conservatism, atheism, etc. How would we/should we respond. It seems rather presuming to me, as in - poor boundaries as to what is one's business and what is not. That's my impression.

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  4. The closer analogy may be here:

    "I am just learning about racism because I have a "contraband" close friend who is a racist. Could somebody help me with some ways I can nudge him in the right direction? I don't want to be pushy and make him change his beliefs, but I want him to think about what he has been taught. I have asked him to explain his beliefs but he just avoids the subject. Its so hard for me to sit back and watch him be controlled by racism. Any suggestions on how to help him will be greatly appreciated."

    A loving friend will bring out the better angels of one's nature.

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  5. The question is how best to do that.:-)

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  6. Thank you Free. Can I assume you equate OALC (and others here might apply that inference to other LLL churches) with racism? A generalization?

    If we look at what is in our own hearts, we see every evil "ism" there. The greatest commandments - Love to God, and love your neighbor as yourself. Whenever we approach another person, it should always be in love. Thank God for his mercy and grace, because we all fall short of that every day.

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  7. While I can't speak for other LLL churches, I feel quite comfortable saying that the OALC is racist AND sexist, not only in practice but in policy.

    This is not faith-based. It is evidence-based. I heard the sermons: Curse of Ham. Obey your husbands, submit, don't question. I saw the proof in the demographics.

    Of course there are individuals who don't toe the line, in the OALC and elsewhere. Mitt Romney said he grieved over the Mormon Church's racism and celebrated when it accepted blacks into the ministry in 1979.

    No doubt it was the pressure of nonracist Mormons that forced the change (which reportedly contradicts their scriptures).

    What will bring LLL churches into the 21st century but pressure by its own members and those who love them?

    Not that I'm holding my breath!

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  8. The reason I feel he is controlled by the church is because we have been friends for a couple years.... but very secretly. I have invited him over to my house to meet my family but he makes excuses to stay away. Maybe he does believe i am a terrible person and he should not associate with my family but I'm more inclined to think he is just following the church rules.

    One other thing that I forgot to mention is his father is the preacher at his church. This makes me think that even if he considered questioning the teachings of the church he would be disowned by his family. Which I can only imagine would be an incredibly difficult situation.

    By the way....I only want what is best for him. I only want him to seek his own understanding but he doesn't seem to be motivated to learn anything other than what he is taught.
    W

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  9. Clearly you are an empathic and caring person, but your friend is probably most comfortable compartmentalizing his life, because the OALC is very clear about not socializing with "worldlies" or being tempted by "the world."

    Maybe he feels safe with you (because you are not trying to make him anything), but he doesn't know if he'll feel either challenged or like an odd duck with your family. That could be the reason he declines to meet them.

    Oddly enough, your friend could be one of my nephews, as I have two brothers who are OALC preachers. While I don't think my brothers would ever shun their children for questioning the church, neither would they encourage it.

    I think the biggest obstacle to questioning is psychological: facing the huge responsibility for one's own life. It is so much easier to simply "not think" than to own that responsibility.

    While your example speaks louder than words, I would encourage you to take the risk of sharing with him your OWN doubts about God, about the meaning of existence, and what love is.

    Normalizing doubt is a good thing. Cause we all gots it.

    And by being authentic, you give him permission to be authentic, too.

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  10. I have never heard of the curse of Ham before and if that's what is preached then I understand.

    The sexism I did not hear so much within the ALC, but in a lot of the Reformed radio programs, books and magazines that I subscribed to years ago. Where I also encountered sexism was living in a rural county where not much was expected of blonde Finnish women by the "good ole boy" network (businessmen, teachers, and other community leaders) of other nationalities. This attitude was shown toward our sons and daughters in school also.

    Something that is interesting and might explain some of the isolation that LLL members exhibit is the class distinction that was made when the immigrants arrived here. I don't know about the Norwegian and Swedish, but Finnish people were on or near the lowest rung. I think that this distrust of other nationalities and religions has been passed down from that immigrant experience and I hope that younger generations continue to be able to overcome that sense of unworthiness. Being a friend, W, is going to speak volumes.

    In this part of the country the Finnish people have felt an affinity with Native Americans and I've felt an affinity with other races, even though I cannot truly understand what their experience is like. Within our family, bigotry and racism is despised. Our kids are evidence of that in the friends and values they have now as adults living in a metropolitan area.

    That's why I don't like generalizations. It's like someone is trying to put me into a box, and I'll fight it. :-) There are those in the ALC who make assumptions based on how you look or whatever - but I ignore them. They don't know me.

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  11. free2bme,
    thank you so much. I just need to be patient and let God work in his own ways. I guess if it is God's will for my friend to challenge his faith he will, in his own time. In the meantime I will just be a friend. This website is very helpful and I know it has helped many people. Maybe someday I will be able to show my friend this site and it can help him as well.
    God Bless,
    W

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  12. Norah, I heard a lot about the curse of Ham growing up in the OALC. (Dark people will never be able to become True Christians because of the C of H, etc.) Sexism was also very alive and well, preached about strongly (whichever one of Paul's letters addresses that -- read frequently in church) and acted on daily. Everything in our family, house, bank accounts, car, was in my dad's name only. My mom was not even considered in the equation. No wonder she felt and acted like a second-class citizen. She still feels that way, I know, and it makes me very sad. Maybe things will slowly start to change as the older generation dies and the younger ones become middle aged. There is hope.

    SISU

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  13. Hi Sisu,

    I grew up in a very maternalistic home due to my mother being widowed twice, and left with young children both times. In my adult life, even the church has had more women than men running things. I used to wish men would actually be more involved, and here now in middle age it is finally coming to pass, and they can have it! :-) I can't imagine not given choices or input but some marriages were and are like that.

    The unworthiness, or humility, especially in women.. even though my mother was strong in many ways she was always very humble, saintly even. Somehow she raised four strong-willed daughters. :-)

    Yes, there is hope.

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  14. LLLreader sez: I appreciate the conclusion W came to regarding the friend. There are some weird ideas taught to children in the OALC about the conduct of families "of the world". If kids in the church can learn that most "worldlies" lead good, honest, normal lives, then much of the fear would just go away. Just being a friend seems to be the best bet.

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  15. Free said.....

    "While I can't speak for other LLL churches, I feel quite comfortable saying that the OALC is racist AND sexist, not only in practice but in policy.

    This is not faith-based. It is evidence-based. I heard the sermons: Curse of Ham. Obey your husbands, submit, don't question. I saw the proof in the demographics."

    I say:

    Let me first address the racism bit by asking: When did you ever hear it preached in the OALC that other races were not welcome? I think a one word answer will suffice: NEVER! I know what the Curse of Ham is, but it hasn't ever been the subject of a sermon to promote racism. Demographics are what they are..they don't indicate what is preached. The high school I went to had as nearly as little diversity in it as our congregation...maybe they were racist...it's in the demographics!

    As far as sexist goes: The bible is very clear on this in 1 Corinthians 14:34-35. This is where your perception of sexism comes from. Is the bible sexist? I don't know, maybe it is. Also in Ephesians 5:22-33 men and women are both instructed on how to treat each other and their respective places in the marriage. The liberal womens movement in America and other developed countries does not like this and neither do you apparently. I can't say this is not according to Scripture. This does not mean I am a ruler over my wife and she must do as I say. This does not mean I don't love, honor, and respect my wife. I can't even begin to count the ways my wife is better, smarter, more loving, and diligent than I. If a couple follows the Scripture according to Ephisians the marriage is often times peaceful, loving, fruitful, and lasting. Compare divorce rates...the differences are staggering.

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  16. Listen, I don't know what the OALC has preached since 1979, but given the "true Christianity never changes" rule, it is probably similar to what I heard growing up, and yes, my own dear great uncle, that kind but limited man, Ole Hendrickson, explained to me that the curse of Ham is why there are no blacks in the true Christianity.

    Perhaps like the Mormons, the OALC is evolving? Let it be so!

    To my good fortune, in the years to come, I acquired some wonderful relatives who are ethnic minorities. Their brief experience in the OALC was not pretty.

    There a lot of ways to make someone feel welcome or unwelcome.

    Now about your high school, did they only allow white men to teach?

    Does your wife get to lead songs in the church?

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  17. Given my tendency to inflame potential viewers on this blog I shall keep my mouth shut. I am only a woman after all. (To be fair my OALC parents have a healthy and loving marriage).

    To W who has befriended the preacher's son: Prepare for rejection. Blood is thicker than water and no where on earth is this more evident than in the OALC.

    OK I'll shut up now...

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  18. The good and bad in churches need to be addressed by the individuals who are members of those churches. I would not be surprised to find that rwb is not a racist, and that he treats his wife well and with respect. But there might be others in any of the Laestadian churches, or any church, who think there is no problem with racism and sexism. (By sexism I do not mean that I am a liberal feminist; I am not. I am conservative and quite traditional). But there are those men who look down on women as inferior, and do not follow the Bible's teachings. Same thing with racism.. Jesus said "Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost". If a church does not believe that the Gospel is for all people then it is clearly in error and this must be addressed.

    A change for the better, for what is true, following the footsteps of Jesus, starts with you and with me. Each of us individually is what makes a church good and truthful or false and in error. We have more power than we think.

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  19. RWB here...

    Free: You base your whole thought process on something you last heard 30 years ago? Well maybe some things have changed...I've never heard racism taught...I don't see the sexism..only following what it taught in the Bible. You could pick many religious groups or groups of many kinds and say it's sexist on some level or another. How many women or black Presidents have we had? Although this may change soon it has not of yet occured. When will the person chosen to be Pope ever be a woman? Your crosshairs seem to be soley focused on your experiences occuring more than 30 years ago in the OALC and bashing to pieces everything that is taught there. I guess I'm missing the point after all that time.

    Now that everybody is all rankled by my comments...

    The following are words right out of the Bible:

    1 Corinthians 14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

    1 Corinthians 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

    These verses along with Ephesians 5:22-33 are very plainly written.

    I don't use them to oppress my wife or any other women. What do they mean to you? How do you interpret them?

    Again I don't think I can convince any of you regular posters here. But you're throwing some mighty accusations out that seem to get more sensational with time and I will see if I can't sort through what is true as I know it and what is not as it stands today.

    RWB

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  20. Bunless here...
    RWB - I like you! I like that you talk from Scripture rather than knee-jerk emotion that lacks substance (we see that a lot here). So Thanks for posting here. You are different from the mainstream OALC that most of us have encountered. I suspect you know this about yourself but dont care to admit it. I would wager there are some man-made things you would like to change about your Church, if only to improve the perception. I suspect that's why you post here.

    I am going to back your point that racism was alive everywhere 30 years ago, not just in the OALC. I would like to think things have changed both inside and outside the OALC since then.

    Anyway as the moderator has requested, I suggest we stick to the posted topics:
    -
    How to help a friend... if only to get them to respect outsiders, to see them as kind worthy people rather than just lost dead souls in the sea of the world. How do you help them "break the ban" on questioning their church authority and think beyond their exclusive community?

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  21. How normal is it for young oalc members to keep worldly friendships? I would especially like to know from the point of view of somebody who is, or was a member in their young adult life.
    W

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  22. I was a member in my young adult life. Acquaintances - normal, but solid friendships with worldies - not normal, particularly after confirmation in the church during the teen years.

    There were plenty of worldlies I would have befriended. The problem was more what other OALCers would think - My friends and family. I did not wan't people to feel ashamed of me, nor did I want them gossiping at my expense. That silly fear prevented me from having any friends outside Church. Looking back that is real messed up.

    My OALC friend was once caught interacting with a worldy. Another OALCer approached him and said, "Who's that, some queer?" That is the kind of thing you have to deal with in the OALC.

    Bunless

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  23. w-
    Given that about 99% of the members stay within the OALC their entire lives, I would say it is very rare that members keep in contact with friends from the world for very long. I have found that alot of young members, who are about 16+ in age, have friendships with people outside of the OALC, but as soon as they get married, those friendships diminish. In a way, I can't help but feel a pang of sadness when I hear another sibling of mine is engaged, because I know at that point there path has been permanently paved for them. I feel like they are more curious and open to hearing and seeing me and my life(I tame it down when they are around!)when they are young and single, but once they get married, they become hardcore OALCers. Don't lose hope though, it is because of the wonderful friends that I made on the outside, that I am who and where I am today; happy, grateful and loving life outside of the OALC.

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  24. Yes, bunless, "queers" seem to be a pretty standard target in the LLC churches. It is perfectly acceptable in their eyes to label anyone who is a homosexual or who they even think might be one. Horrible graphic jokes are passed on without a second thought. Other comments have alluded to this attitude recently as well. Maybe we could start a post about that issue when this one has run its course.

    mia from the LLC

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  25. RWB here.......

    Maybe this is pointless for me to be here....

    I have read many, many posts here over the last couple days and I see the damage has been done by both sides.

    I saw posts from some OALC members who said the OALC was the one true faith. I think they that wrote those things meant it in this way: I as an OALC member see it this way (and have heard it spoken this way also)...that I am not saved because I go there...hopefully I will be saved by my faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and that I will be able to remain in that faith until the end. FOR ME I believe that Christ's doctrine is taught in the OALC and I would hope many others would come to that conclusion also.

    I can't say what is in anyone elses heart, I've got enough to worry about just being me. I just want to simply live my life according to Gods will. Trials will come and they will strengthen my faith.

    If I have a question on something I will go ask someone about it. I have not had the need to question church doctrine because I believe that doctrine is the doctrine of Christ and that it is perfect. I know some of you will say I'm nuts, crazy, strange, naive, but that's OK with me. I know me. I think you would find after you cracked the perceived facade that I have seen described so heavily on here that you would find many, many more that are just like me.

    I have no need to search out other doctrines/faiths/religions when I believe that I have everything right here in front of me. Hopefully many of you will find that peace also. For those of you searching - give the OALC a shot even after what you read here. For those of you that have left I would like to say "give it another shot", but I know that is probably to simplistic and not going to happen. Some of you have found to many faults whether real or perceived, whether of people or of the doctrine. Apparently they are very real to you or you have convinced yourself that they are real and representative of what is taught and practiced and would want to come in with questions and with "guns-a-blazin'" and that would not serve you or anybody else well. I will not pass judgement on you because that is not my place. However the invitation is always there. Come when you are ready.

    I even saw some posts I believe were probably posted by some non-OALC who pretended to be OALC members and that's a shame.

    Members of the OALC have been named as:
    Limited people, uneducated, child abusers, child molesters, wife beaters, racist, sexist, twisted, dishonest, deceitful, Godless, prejudiced, haters, circumventers of natural law, hypocrites, unchanging, regressive, zealots, vengeful, spiteful, arrogant, likened to terrorists, fundamentalist addicts, uncharitable, unsavory, and butt-tiring....that last one makes me laugh....

    Interestingly (especially the parts about personal, derogatory, and slandering) enough I also happened upon the following written by Free:

    Recently a cousin in the OALC phoned me and asked if I was "free2bme." I confessed. She had heard rumors about this site and they were personal and derogatory, to put it mildly. This saddened me. I hope that she is comforted by the fact that we are not slandering people here. I welcome anyone to post comments. I expect others' experiences to be different than mine (my cousin's family does not, for example, practice shunning). But I will continue to publicly reject a doctrine that I consider false and harmful.

    Well I will just let that stand for itself.

    In closing I would like to say that I don't know everything that is written in the Bible or that I even understand much of it. I know what it says about the doctrine of Christ and I think many of you do to. It is taught at the OALC. That doctrine of Christ is not a false and harmful doctrine and it is the only way to get to Heaven....period.

    RWB

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  26. If all the OALCers were like RWB I might go back and visit. I will disagree with you on whether "false and harmful doctrine" is preached by the OALC. There is nothing false and harmful about the "doctrine of Christ" - if that is what is being preached. But those of us who have left - we did not see the "doctrine of Christ" being presented. In fact we saw, heard, felt and lived things that directly contradicted the "doctrine of Christ." I am not going to spell it out - you have read our testimonials.

    I will back you on something though... the OALC preachers really drove home that the beleif that Christ died for our sins was all that was required to get to heaven.

    But then they directly contradict this 2 minutes later with preachings that you can't get to heaven with your hair cut in wordly ways or if you go to a "dead-faith" church. They preach that you can't judge a persons heart, but then thats exactly what they appear to do.

    I attend the deadest-faith Church of all - the Catholic Church. I beleive Christ died on the cross to pay for our sins so that we can share with Him in eternal life. In Him alone I am saved. So I meet the OALC criteria for possible entrance to heaven.

    But any OALC preacher will say I am going to hell. Next time you go to church, ask a preacher what happens to Catholics when they die. See what they say.
    ...Bunless

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  27. do they date inside the church? Is it like regular dating? I know they rarely wait long periods of time before getting married but it it unusual for a man to not be married by say, age 20 or 21? I am disappointed that my friend does not like to discuss his faith because I would much rather he answer my questions. But I appreciate everyone that is helping me.
    W

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  28. I have seen some (mostly boys) date outside of the church in their high school years. But once they graduate (if they graduate) they start looking for that OALC wife. It seems that most OALC boys and girls seem to go on the spouse prowl after they reach the age of 18. BTW...I left the OALC in my late teens because I could not agree with their teachings.

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  29. Anonymous,
    Did you seek understanding on your own and therefore disagree with their teachings? Or did somebody outside the church encourage you to look outside the teachings? Im not sure if my friend is as willing as you are to question what he is taught, but maybe he hides it so I don't think he is weak in his faith?
    W

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  30. LLLreader sez: To RWB--do you believe that it is possible for the doctrine of Christ to be taught in the Methodist Church?

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  31. RWB
    My biggest issue is the judgement about all other churches being dead. If a member of any of factions of the LLL church has never been to my church then they have no idea what is preached there. My salvation comes through my confession that I believe in Jesus Christ and know that my sins were with him on the cross, totally accepting him as my savior. Period.
    ijumped

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  32. W,
    Yes they date inside the church..I don't know if its "real" dating because I never dated anyone in the church. (I was in the LLC so it might be a bit different than the Oalc). I don't remember many dating outside the church, there probably were some that did, but they would've kept it pretty quiet. The ones that openly did, left the church soon after from what I've seen.
    For me it wasn't an "outside" friend that got me to leave, it was just that I didn't beleive in what they were teaching. It started with music, dancing, playing school sports and all that other stuff that they teach is "bad", I didn't beleive it was wrong. I don't know of anyone who has left because of a friend outside of the church, what I've seen is they question it for quite awhile, then decide to leave. Or else they question it, then they start making friends outside the church and talking to them about it. (because usually if they strongly beleive in the teachings of the church, they still beleive that they shouldn't get to close to "worldlies" because the "worldly" will try to "take their faith away") I didn't see many friendships between LLC and outsiders last past highschool. It was this site that made me realize why I didn't beleive in the LLC's teachings. (I guess I didn't think about why I didn't beleive their teachings much either..)
    And to our Oalc friend- I would've liked to see more people like you at church, that wouldn't have judged me for leaving the church off and on since I was 16. It was only 3 years ago that I left, so maybe I'd know abit more than those who left 30 yrs ago. They are still very judgemental..every time I attended church since I have left, they preach right at me. They'll look right at me and tell me that I'm going to hell (in nicer words of course). Then I can just about hear them (because I heard it so much growing up) after saying "that was such a nice sermon, do you think she heard it?" blah blah...same thing every time. It definately doesn't make someone feel very welcome. I don't know if thats what it's like in the OALC, but its like that in the LLC. I never heard the curse of Ham...but I can't say I listened that much in the last 5yrs I went to their church. I most likely would remember something like that. ...
    Anyways, I'm goin to shutup now ;)
    ~TH

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  33. Thanks TH,
    I can't believe I had never heard of the OALC or LLC before my friend told me he was a member. I must admit they do a really good job of protecting their members from us "worldlies".

    Being the preacher's son must put a huge weight on my friends shoulders. I know how much it would hurt his family to see him leave the church which is why Im afraid he will never have the nerve to question his faith, or leave, and that breaks my heart. Is anyone on here a preacher's son or daughter that has had different experiences? Have you felt like you have been held to a higher standard than others?

    Thankfully the Lord strengthens those who have faith even in the toughest of situations.
    W

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  34. From Anon (Wed Feb 13, 03:36:00 PM PST):

    W,
    I left the OALC due to my own questioning and seeking and was not influenced by any friends outside of the OALC. I began questioning in my early teens and my family said that if I still did not beleive in the teachings after I went through my confirmation training, I could make the decision to leave. (My family was quite liberal for being in the OALC).

    I recommend you just remain a good friend, lead by example and show him what it is like to believe in a LOVING God who loves all of his children...and not just those in the OALC.

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  35. RWB, what you have written here is also preached in the ALC. As long as I can remember though, there has been this discussion of Law and Gospel. After having been involved in many discussions about those subjects within the ALC, I think that there is no complete agreement among all members on this subject. It will always be cause for discussion. What I have come up with for myself is this: That we are not under the Law, but we are called to obedience. I haven't figured out a way to live this way myself, somewhere between the law and grace, freedom and obedience. All I can say is that nothing I do can save me, it has been paid. But this freedom does not prompt me to sin, the Holy Spirit guides, teaches, admonishes. Our undying spirit can do not other than to be perfect in Christ, but as you've written here, our flesh will always rebel and fall into sin. Without staying close to God and examining ourselves, I believe we can be unwittingly led out of this grace and into the bondage of sin again. I don't really know how to explain it very well except to say I do not subscribe to 'lists' which change with man's whims..but instead trust that God is leading day by day. Christ was victorious and we gain the victory through him, it's a source of consolation, confidence and comfort. We are not bound by the law any longer.

    I hear what you are saying and it is worth saying and making clear, and a good discussion.

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  36. I guess Im just afraid I will end up getting hurt by him in the process. But I feel like God wants me to be present in his life until he decides for himself what he wants. I must admit I struggle with being patient but thanks to all of you I am getting a better understanding of what he is going through.

    I have been thinking about visting an OALC service sometime to get a sense of what it is like for myself but its practically impossible to get any information online for obvious reasons.
    DO most of them hold services at 11:00 or another time? I was also thinking of asking my sister to accompany me so I wouldn't feel so alone.

    BTW, if i do check it out sometime what should I wear? I know some of them can be a little judgmental (aren't we all though?) and I don't want to put myself or my sister through anything uncomfortable.

    W

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  37. W, why would you be afraid of getting hurt by him in the process?

    This idea of trying to "fix" others still sorta bothers me. Are any of us going out and trying to enlighten Mormons, or JWs, or Adventists, or any of the mainstream denominations? Do we know that they want or need to be 'fixed'?

    If OALCers are anything ALCers, they are fine, upstanding contributors to society overall. They are family oriented, hardworking, not usually in trouble with the law. That is not to say that the legalism, if understood incorrectly, can't be damaging. But otherwise, if someone seems happy where they are why should we set out to change them?

    Having been in your shoes, I find that often it's more of my own obsession rather than the person who wants or needs to be changed.

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  38. ps: After all, this desire of people within the church to "fix" us is what many of us rebel against anyway! :-)

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  39. I am by no means trying fix him. The reason I was intrigued by this young man is because he is a wonderful person, largely due to his upbringing in the OALC. I just don't want him to go through life believing that the rest of the world is just a bunch of terrible people.

    I feel the same way about other churches that are exclusivists.

    I was great friends with a Jehovah's witness too. I disagree with some of their teachings as well. And yes, I think it is detrimental for churches to feel they are the only people going to heaven. I understand that as humans we are quick to judge people, but imagine how God feels when he looks down at his beloved children treating "outsiders" the way the OALC (and other churches) do.

    Everytime I ask my friend about the starving children in Africa he shrugs like they don't deserve what we have. That nonchalance was instilled in him from the OALC and it is absolutely contradictory to what God has commanded of us.

    If I am wrong about the OALC and their teachings I am apologize for praying for my friend to question his beliefs. I am more than willing to give up all the things they call sins if it's what the Lord commands of us. But so far, I am not convinced.
    W

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  40. Im afraid of being hurt because I care about this friend. And from what I can tell he will eventually discard our friendship simply because he is advised to. To not be able to associate with people because they do not label themselves as OALC members...... well.....i think you get what I'm saying. it's not fair.

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  41. W, I think I've been really slow about figuring out what your relationship is to him. Duh. Now I see. Sometimes I am so clueless. I do understand now how you could get hurt. I think at best you will have to guard your heart. If it's meant to be, it will be. Pray about it and I'll keep you in thought and prayer also.

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  42. Norah,
    That means so much to me. Thank you.
    W

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  43. W-
    You are spot on about the OALC. It is completely un-Christianlike to treat outsiders like worthless, soul-less sub-human beings. And it is flat out arrogant and prideful to "nonchalantly" dismiss hunger and suffering in this world. This racism and "curse of Ham" nonsense is vile and I have been sick over it the last few days. This is not Christianity.

    This advice I am giving to you because I am assuming you are a white person. If you are black or other minority, do not attempt.

    Call your local OALC and find the service times. Yes, bring a friend. You need to wear a long skirt (below the knee) and at least medium length sleeves. Choose contemporary clothing, not prairie style like the polygamists wear. Find a lightweight square scarf, fold into a triangle and wear over your head, tied beneath your chin. Keep it loosely around your neck until you enter the building, and pull it on top of your head when you go inside, or when the services start. If you are greeted with a handshake, respond in kind by saying "God's Peace." You can introduce yourself and say you are visiting. Do not wear makeup or jewelry or nail polish. Have an open mind about the service. Some things might be a bit startling, in particular the asking of forgiveness ritual which is very emotional. Observe what you can. Hope that helps.

    Good luck to you.
    -Bunless

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  44. The Oalc is still like that with the clothes and head scarf thing? I didn't realize that. If I was visiting the LLC I would wear my makeup, nail polish and normal clothes... They don't wear makeup or nail polish but they wear todays fashions...they are not near as "modest" as they used to be with skirts being below the knees...and I don't remember any of them wearing a scarf on their head.
    ... Anyways this is off topic so I'll stop.
    I'd just say..no matter how hard you try to look like them you'll most likely stick out anyways unless its a really big congregation..usually they can pick out the "outsiders"

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  45. W-

    Bunless(love that name) has given you good advice. However, if you are not comfortable wearing the scarf or not wearing some makeup (due to blemishes, etc.) I would go to the service as you are. No one will bite your head off as a visitor even though you don't "wear the uniform"!

    I still remember my first experience at the church as a worldlie!! When members started hugging and crying and wailing as they asked forgiveness from one another and the preachers , I was astonished to say the least. I had never seen anything like it before!

    I'm not trying to scare you off, just giving you a heads up.

    Good luck!

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  46. I just have to tell you of this recurring dream I always have. Even thought I haven't been to the OALC in decades. I have this dream that I am at an OALC service but I forgot my scarf. I sit in church and feel naked, with everyone staring at me, because I dont have a scarf on. I am telling you this dream has haunted me for years. (RWB will tell me it's my concience - -chuckle-) So, I wouldnt be caught dead at an OALC service without a scarf. Bring one anyways even if you dont plan to wear it...

    -Bunless
    (p.s. I still wear my hair in a bun of all things. My blog name derives from my spiritual bunlessness..)

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  47. I visited the OALC a few times (I'm a "worldly") and didn't wear a scarf. Yeah, I got stared at, especially by the kids, but it could have been my big hoop earings too. It was actually kinda of cool to be the center of attention. God made you as an individual so go as you are. And, you should say speace, not gods peace.

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  48. Oh Bunless, I think it's hilarious that you still wear a bun! I have let my hair grow out so it's now about waist length, but I just wear it in a ponytail (do draw the line at the bun!) When I last went home to visit, I left my earrings in as I didn't want my mom to think my long hair was a hopeful sign! I don't wear makeup either, very often, or any other jewelry, and I dress very simply so they might get ideas. No one mentioned my earrings (not hoops, but bright crystals so pretty obvious). MTH

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  49. I can't wait to hear about W's first experience at an OALC service!

    Regrettably going off topic again...

    Despite the ban on makeup and jewelry in the OALC I have witnessed extreme vanity among many of the members, in particular the young women. Constantly touching up the hair and blemish concealer. Constantly looking in mirrors. It's just ironic. The same thing with TV's. If you are ever with an OALC in the presence of a TV - they can't stop watching. As though they are drawn to the forbidden...
    So I keep my hair tied up but admittedly use artificial color. I also wear some minimal makeup and jewelry in keeping with what is appropriate for my profession. But in general makeup, jewelry and trendy hairstyles are not my thing. And I HATE television - it's a supreme waste of life. I support the OALC 100% on that one!
    Bunless

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  50. Thanks to all of you for reading and commenting. Visits are skyrocketing . . . is it W, RWB, or the Obama effect?!

    RWB, I wish we meet for coffee. I don't have time to respond to each of your comments, but let me repeat, there is no "one point of view" on this blog: it is a democratic conversation. Some voices are just louder than others.

    As moderator, I have taken care to delete negative comments that are specific to living individuals, but have allowed criticism of Laestadius and Laestadianism in general. I have also allowed praises and statements of support, such as yours. You will even find, if you look, a thread devoted to "things we appreciate" about Laestadianism. (Bunless, I don't heart TV, either, and I find the vulgarization of culture distressingl)

    As for whether the Bible is sexist, yes, but how could it be otherwise, given the era?

    About the "butt tiring" comment, that was about Laestadisu, and it wasn't slander, which is by definition false. My actual butt gets tired by Laestadius and I defy anyone to prove it otherwise.

    As for the false and harmful doctrine that I publicly reject, that would be the OALC's, period. I personally think Jeus was NOT about doctrine and that doctrine can get in the way of Jesus, but that's for another thread.

    Okay, now I have to run off and have a date night with my incredible husband, the man I would not have met if I had stayed in the OALC. (Dear W, please don't waste too much of your youth on this friendship. There are wonderful young men out there who think, talk, and even do something about starving kids in Africa.)

    Looking back, I guess I could have married someone in the OALC. The odds were good, but . . . the goods were odd. (Humor, RWB, humor)

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  51. WOW. I had never heard of the scarf. yikes. I don't think I could do that. I'm not going to fit in though. I am going to give it a fair chance, and to see if it's worth trying to open my friend's eyes over. If not, I can let him be with his faith and get on with mine. Easier said than done. ugh.

    For those of you that had what it took to look beyond what you were told your whole life despite the painful process...you are an inspiration to me and to many.

    I think it may be a few weeks before I actually will visit the church. I am trying to go when my friend will not be there. Our presence would be distracting to each other.

    Thanks so much for all of your help. This site has been a god-send. I was struggling to find info. for a few months before I found this and it has been beyond helpful.

    Oh....can someone explain what is bad about music? I can't understand that at all.....
    W

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  52. Whats wrong with music. A loaded question. In an OALC service there is "a capella" singing with no musical instrument accompaniment. It's actually quite horrid and off key. Much is because, as one poster pointed out, they dont let women serve as songleaders so you have men trying to do it. And since they have little or no understanding of music (since it is a sin) they appear to choose song learders based on the loudness of their voices, not necessarily the quality of their tone or their vocal talent.
    Anyways, much of modern music has corrupt language and messages, and is not such a stretch to see why this would be considered bad. But like much OALC thinking, innocent things can be stepping stones to evil. So if you got interested in classical music for example, you might be tempted to broaden your horizons and before you know it you'll be packing an ipod with Eminem and other graphic rap tunes. The other side of it is that they want to discourage the development of any unnecessary, potentially competitive talents and hobbies. These kind of activities pull your focus away from the true Christianity. Lastly, music is a way people experience JOY. The OALC is very anti-joy. They insist we should constantly mourn the fall of man, the evil that surrounds us, the struggle to live as a Christian amongst a sea of worldies, and our own sin of course, which we should be so busy lamenting and feeling guilty over - that pursuing such things as joyful hobbies might make us forget. Let's see - any one else care to comment?
    Bunless

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  53. That sounds like my experiences also. Maybe add that a lot of what goes on with bands (I'm thinking rock and roll) and the extreme misbehavior is pointed to as an inevitable conclusion.

    My kids have asked me why grandma's church doesnt beleive in music. I tell them that some music is inappropriate, and some things that happen are inappropriate, but God gave us common sense and the free will to follow His commands about what is right and wrong, therefore we dont have to lump all music into an evil category because some have misused a beatiful gift, but its easier for some to stay away from everything. (OK I had to tone it down quite a bit as they are younger, but that was the gist of it :)

    On that note, I am careful to expose my kids to all types of music, but still screen the lyrics. They listen to and like all venues from Heavy Metal, Country, Classical, Choirs, Rap etc. There are Christian bands that perform in all these venues and there are some songs that arent half bad in each too. Some are more difficult to find than others, but I think my job as a parent is to shelter them while exposing them as they are developmentally (spiritually, emotionally etc) ready.

    My son and I are now learning to read music together as I was not allowed in music classes growing up OALC. (My mother wrote a note excusing me for religious reasons) We're thinking of which instrument to learn together next :)

    to RWB: If my family members and old friends in the oalc were more like you, than I also may have never left, as much of the oalc culture can be quite nice. I miss traveling to meetings, being welcomed by and getting to know strangers, saunas on Saturday night, big familys, and lots more. Yet they are not like you, but rather like your long list of labels to the negative... I wish it were not so, but I am only in charge of my actions and beliefs (and my children's :) I really enjoy your posts, please continue to visit here!

    I was raised oalc, and I can remember during the dating time (group dating could start around 13-14 years old) If anyone was dating a non oalc member, they were considered a HUGE rebel, a black sheep and I remember parents not allowing their children to associate with that one (as much as they could) I personally decided to look outside the church for a mate at an early age because I just could not find any male that respected the scriptures putting them in charge -not to say there were none out there, I just couldnt find one. ANd yes, I continued hoping and looking but after awhile I gave up. I am married now, (non oalc) and I do submit myself to my husband, because he submits himself to God and we have a very peaceful and extremely happy marriage. The children understand this order of authority and respect and love.

    I maintained a few of my friends after high school that were not from the church, but I think thats because I was not always attending the church. It was highly discouraged whenever I would go back to the church; usually in the form of "well the problem you are having is because of the people you spend your time with, if you were around "Christians" (meaning oalc members) you would be encouraged on the "right" path)

    Also much more was said at the gatherings than behind the pilpit, such as the issue of anyone not white and

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  54. Bunless, I agree with you 100% on the TV issue. I never watch it, period.
    To Stylux (from a prior post): "Everyone has access to healthcare . . .:" What???!!! What planet do you inhabit? I am amazed anew at how . . . well, never mind. But at least be more specific. Everyone has access to EMERGENCY ROOMS but that's about it. If you refuse to acknowledge that there are huge inequities in access to health care, then I think we have no grounds for conversation - on that subject, anyway. And if you don't think it's going to bankrupt this country, I'd like to share this bit of news (sorry, Free, more pessimism): The cost of MediCare today exceeds the cost of Social Security for seniors. Each senior costs us (working folks) in excess of $29,000 PER YEAR for medical care. The cost has risen 24% (I forget the time frame).
    Free, I've got to ask you this: with the inertia inherent in our capitalist ie corporate systems, the "psychology of prior investment," and the non-negotiable "American way of life," how do you see us making substantive change in a timely, controlled fashion? How do you see us becoming sustainable over the longer term,or do you? And how long a term will we be granted?
    I have an analogy about "speaking plain:" When my son was young, he was on a soccer team which was composed of a bunch of poor sports. Once when they lost, they spit on their hands and "slimed" the members of the other team. The coaches did not give them the dressing down they deserved as they were so fixated on being "supportive" and "positive" with the little brats that they blew it. I think the same is true of us Americans: we are so stuck in our viewpoint and our way of life that we are incapable of significant timely change unless forced. Well, bring on the forced change, then. I plan to stand by and help. In the meantime, I'm off to Uganda to check it out. MTH

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  55. David was a musician. And David was a man after God's own heart. I guess i understand their point. But i remember showing my friend (who listens to secular music by the way) a couple Christian songs and he made it seem like they were worse than "worldly" music.

    I know they can't play high school sports, but my friend plays sports on the weekends with friends. (I'm guessing all from the OALC) I always want to ask how thats allowed but not high school sports, but I'm afraid to question too much. so...can somebody explain why they can play sports as long as it's not organized?

    Also, braces? Most of them get braces. Is that condoned?

    I have so many questions. You all have been wonderful in answering them. I know you have better things to do than help with my questions. But thanks!
    W

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  56. MTH...

    Stylux here to respond.

    It seems as if we frequently arrive at the place that we have no further reason to discuss things. It is a fairly accurate statement that everyone has access to healthcare in this country and to answer you bluntly... I live here in the same place that you do. And you are correct... for many it is the ER. But, this is most often a situation of educating people about where best to go to get it. ER's for many reasons have become the preferred outpatient clinic. I'll quickly mention five things that if implemented would go a long way to alleviating the problem. 1) Let loose the allied health providers to practice on their own... NP's, PA's etc. 2)Eliminate no deductible insurance. 3) Eliminate the practice of getting health insurance from your job. 4) Require all carriers in each state to take on "uninsurables" at a prorated rate. 5) Require all people to have insurance. Here is a market based solution.

    As for medicare... I can vividly recall arguing in the 1960's when it was being debated that the costs would balloon all out of proportion to the care provided. Back then I was told that I lacked compassion and was not connected to reality. The federal governments involvement has created a dumbed down standardized system that is currently penalizing everyone.. patients and providers alike. And the public, in their wisdom is screaming for more of the same. I am married to someone who has lived under national healthcare and her comment is this... The American public is not prepared to accept what will be necessary should we move in that direction. Massive delays, unavailability and ultimately rationing of limited services. Simply put... we do not have enough money to provide what our self-entitled population believes it deserves. If you give it away... people want more for nothing... And that is human nature. And how about if those advocating national healthcare address this simple fact.

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  57. Ah yes, the national healthcare issue. Tain't an easy nut to crack, is it? On the one hand, deep in our hearts, everyone of us would like to think that it would be great to make sure everyone has access to good medical care. On the other hand, even ideals have to be paid for.

    I lived under socialized medicine for three years -- admittedly not a lifetime. It stunk. It was impersonal, it was abysmally slow, the care provided was marginal at best, and when the tax bill came, it cost -- oh Lord, did it cost.

    So from the left we hear that we should take from the wealthy and make sure they pay for their less fortunate brethren (how come we have brethren but don't have sisteren, but I digress -- random thought, sorry). From the right we hear the comment that why should they have to pay for folks that don't have the gumption to make something of themselves and pay their own way.

    If we consider that in purest light, we'd probably all say that people who are able to make their own way should, so that the TRULY needy can be cared for, but who is willing and able to be the judge? I doubt anyone is stupid enough to think that there are not social leeches out there, who employ every kind of ploy to get anything they can for free. We also know there are those who are in desperate straits and certainly worthy of our attention.

    The problem we must solve to get past the impasse and make progress is not whether we provide for the poor, it is how do we determine who is the poor. We must attack the root cause, not the symptom. We must not destroy the knight for the loss of the kingdom, when it was that darned horseshoe nail that was the culprit.

    For those not familiar with the allegory -- For the want of a nail, the shoe was lost; for the want of the shoe, the horse was lost; for the want of the horse, the knight was lost; for the want of the knight, the battle was lost; for the want of the battle, the kingdom was lost; ...all for the want of a horseshoe nail.

    If we want to find the solution to national healthcare, we need to work on the nail, which I think is fair and equitable responsibility. What I hear from the left is take it from the wealthy. That ain't fair, and that ain't equitable. The right takes just as hard a position. Where's the nail? I wish I knew.

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  58. w,

    It was explained to me that they do not participate in organized sports because the athletes are glorified. When they do it for fun, there is no public recognition, no adoring fans, nothing to start them believing that they are better than anyone else.

    The music--they are very used to thinking that the only "sacred" music that is acceptable is theirs. Secular music falls into its own category. You play it in your car until you pull into the church parking lot, and then you turn it down. Okay, that sounds like sarcasm, but I don't intend it that way. It's the truth. And then contemporary Christian music to them is almost like perverting Scripture since they are already so set in their ideas of what is right. It falls completely outside the box.

    And if you should quote scripture from any version other than the King James Version, they'll probably tell you that it was completely twisted out of context when it was translated so it's meaningless to them.

    been there done that

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  59. W- yes in my old oalc church it was taught that christian music was much definately worse than secular music. It was said that the "dead faith" ideas were far worse and harder to see, and could therefore sneak into your heart and steal your oalc faith.

    The sports question has a different answer for each church brance/locality you could ask. They range from extreme opposition to encouragment. Its hard to say for sure which branch /church your friend attends...

    Never heard anything about braces one way or the other.

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  60. I was told we couldn't play organized sports because it would take away from church time, and it could lead to other things like going out partying with the team, or listening to "wordly" music.
    I have a question about the Oalc (i was in the LLC)..Do they listen to classical music? The LLC listen to music as long as it doesn't have a beat to it...so they'll listen to stuff like Charlotte church..and other classical music.
    About your healthcare issues..did any of you see the movie sicko? How accurate was that? Is that what its like or was that exaggerated? I'm from Canada, and feel very lucky to have free healthcare. We're not poor, but we wouldn't be able to pay for healthcare if something unexpected came up. I can't imagine having to pay to go to the doctor, to have a baby, to have x-rays...we just wouldn't be able to do it. Anyways..thats it for now.

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  61. Nice response Stylux to the healthcare issue. If you talk to Europeans they will laugh at the American notion that socialized healthcare is 'free'. They not only pay taxes for it (see what cvow wrote above) they have co-pays every time the go to a doctor (the poverty stricken do not have money for copays). That said the real issue facing healthcare by the year 2020 will be a shortage of doctors (including FP's and PA's). Why? Because in order to go to med school (FP school, PA school) a person has to be able to pay back the cost of going as well as make a living commensurate with the responsibility (malpractice, etc.) taken on and the personal sacrifice to complete the education. Who will be able to do it with all of the money that is being sucked out of the medical system year by year? It's like our education system. Our teachers can't afford to teach so they are going into the corporate world. I seldom post here so I will say 'hey' to my cousin stylux (who I don't think I have ever met). Your dad and my mom (sister and brother) passed away in 2007. Okay now bring on the flames about money-grubbing healthcare workers...

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  62. Anon...

    Stylux here...

    I believe that I know that family that you came from but do not know you. I will again give Free position to give my email to you if you care to correspond.

    The healthcare issue is obviously an intractable dilemma in many ways and in my view is made more so by expectations. In addition most of the best solutions are politically unpalatable.

    So it goes.

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  63. W-
    My observation is that modern day OALCers could stand to get a bit more exercise - especially the women who are often tied up with domestic responsibilities. In my youth I recall most OALC to be skinny, blonde, attractive scandinavian types. True - their alcohol-free, TV-free living allows them to be more active but its not enough to combat the Standard American McDiet. In recent years the OALC waistlines seem to be expanding... or am I imagining things? In general physical health and fitness is a low priority for OALC (unless you are young and seeking a mate). After all, why bother with such earthly concerns when the world is about to end and it's all just a split-second compared to eternity.
    -Bunless

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  64. do the kids have youth group? Or youth leaders? or summer camps?

    And I don't understand how they can read books and not be able to watch any form of TV or movie. Where do they get these guidelines?

    Do they pray together? Or have any type of small group interaction or is it mostly Sunday worship and that's it for the week?

    W

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  65. The healthcare issue is a difficult one, and I don't have the answer either. I do believe, however there is a place for government sponsored care for those that are in low income situations, many times due to circumstances beyond their control.

    I know I will be flamed by my conservative friends, but I know personally , someone in this situation. This person was married and had a child, when the spouse/breadwinner left suddenly, leaving this person with the child, no healthcare, and very little else! After applying for medicaid and day care help, this person was awarded 6.00 a day toward day care, and given medicaid coverage for the child. Although working, this person has a physical disability and makes very little. Recently, the medicaid was dis-allowed because the gross pay exceeded $1145 a month, due to overtime, by $40.00.

    Does anyone think you can afford to buy health care when you make $285.00 a week and are raising a child? By the way, the departed spouse was told to pay child care, but is bouncing between jobs and bars, and not much is ever paid.

    I believe in situations like this, the person should be allowed to make more money, before the medicaid coverage is stopped. How can this person get ahead this way?

    I know the entitlement costs are already high, but many people are suffering with this problem, and they have nowhere else to turn.

    I consider myself a conservative, but surely there are federal programs that can be streamlined or eliminated altogether, to allow for increased funding of people in situations like this.

    What do you all think?

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  66. A couple of comments on the run . . .hp3, I think it is hilarious that "Christian music is worse than secular music." WHO do they suppose wrote the OALC music? Not OALCers! So why is their music so special? Just because its origins are obscured by the "mists of time" - more or less?
    To Stylux: You say that the poor and uninsured "have access to healthcare" by invoking the law that requires ERs to see everyone. Right? If they have no money and do not qualify for MediCal/Medicaid/Medicare, do you agree that in practice they have no other access to healthcare? So if the ER is their only option: do you support our "enlightened" political leaders in their decision to legislate the "right" of everyone to care in any ER, for any problem? (without continuity, of course, or management of "chronic" problems). I'm betting you do not. If so, shame on you for invoking a law that you would not even support. MTH

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  67. LLLreader sez: Another huge problem regarding health care is the lack of decent mental health treatment for the poor. Even when treatment is provided, it can be substandard. I personally know of two people, one adult and one child, that were so terribly misdiagnosed by providers who were offered up by the state that their situations actually became dangerous. Finally, family members hired a skilled psychiatrist ($200 per hr.) and they both are getting the help they need. God knows what would have happened if the family had not stepped in.

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  68. To Stylux…… “I'm betting you do not. If so, shame on you for invoking a law that you would not even support. MTH”

    Stylux here..

    MTH… Please stop all this silly “shame on you” nonsense. I quite frequently offer up sound solutions to problems and apparently because they are market based and not government based… out come the ad hominem attacks. I am quite ready to accept government involvement to solve social problems. I live in the real world and even though I don't support a particular law doesn't mean I have no standing to comment on its impact. Rarely is the concern I raise about the government (meaning all of us) creating more and more dependent generations addressed. Given what you know about the human condition how do you cope with the increasing dependency?

    How about this one… Heard on a radio interview recently… A woman, recent graduate from law school, chooses not to purchase healthcare because she can’t "afford" it, went to school on subsidized loans, feels that the society owes her a hospital plan and the school money. Asked why a laborer should pay for all this, she responds that the society is the better off because she is a lawyer. Now given that you are so upset at my shamefulness… explain to me why this should be done. MTH, you are too bright to engage in this sort of debate.

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  69. LLLreader sez: To W--the final authority rests with the preachers. To my knowledge, there aren't Bible Camps, Sunday Schools, Bible Study or discussion groups. I believe this is because of fear that the Bible will be misrepresented by a Sunday School teacher, or Youth Pastor, or someone like that. The preachers are the ones that have been placed in the position of go-between for the OALC members and God. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here in my understanding of the preachers role. If there is a question of whether something is right or wrong, a preacher can give the answer. Say, if a women is advised to not have more children by her Dr., then a OALC member might feel it necessary to talk to a preacher about it before making a final decision. Growing up, I never remember any prayer away from church. My grandpa was a preacher, and even in his house we didn't pray before meals. I'm sure there are differences among families on the prayer issue. My unnderstanding is that if you limit your worship to a time when an infallible preacher is leading you, and you are surrounded by other church members who are like minded, then you are safe. To the question of why is one thing OK, and not another---I guess it goes back again to what the preachers say. Smoking is OK. If you question and doubt, you are inviting sin. Your faith is very fragile and your salvation can be taken away in an instant. It's a very powerful message. If I made any inaccurate statements feel free to correct.

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  70. oh. my.

    okay. Well. that's all a little shocking. so in other words....the personal relationship with God is rarely really there? Prayer is the only way I get through a single day. I can't imagine life without it on a daily basis.

    This may show how little I know about the church but am I right in saying there has never been an OALC female preacher?

    I need some advice on something personal. I bought my friend a bible. I bought a King James so it wouldn't be against teachings, but I'm still not sure how he will take it. I was considering giving it to him soon but I don't want to do anything to make him uncomfortable. Is giving him a bible overstepping my bounds?
    W

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  71. I can't comment on the OALC, but in the LLC, they have Bible study on Wed nights. The "study" was usually conducted by a (male) Sunday School teacher, who had a monologue on the particular passage of Scripture for the night. Very few comments were offered, and I know I certainly felt intimidated, because I was afraid if I said anything, it would be wrong. I didn't get a sense that it was okay to have a discussion about the various ways a passage could be interpreted. There was a right way, and that was that.

    There are youth camps in the summer, but all of the materials used are "official" LLC curriculum.

    They don't have youth groups in the sense that contemporary churches do. The unmarried young people get together at various people's houses in the evenings to sing songs and socialize with each other. This is the arena in which singles are encouraged to get to know other singles.

    And definitely no women preachers. Women are not board members. Women do get to teach Sunday School, but only for the lower grades. It is very rare for a woman to teach a class above fourth grade level. It was mildly shocking when a woman was allowed into the pulpit to translate. Talk about progressive!

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  72. I wanted to add that the only familiarity with Bible stories I had was from Luther's Catechism. The Catechism was used in Sunday School classes and the stories were summarized and discussed.

    I didn't own a Bible until after I moved out from home, and one night at a home service when the minister brought some books with him, I bought one. But even then, I don't ever remember reading it. I don't really remember seeing others read their Bibles except on rare occasions, when someone died, maybe.

    I don't remember ever praying together out loud in a group. Prayer was structured or silent, not spontaneous. The closest thing I learned to prayer was when I was little I had to learn the Lord's Prayer. Memorization and recitation. Some kids had to say it to their parents before they went to bed at night.

    There are some small groups in each area, but when they get together, one of the ministers usually comes to speak. People don't generally get together to do Bible studies. You won't find a group of women doing a Beth Moore study, if that's what you mean.

    I don't think it would be inappropriate if you give him a Bible. It might be awkward, but don't let that stop you. Good luck.

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  73. The OALC is nothing like other Christian churches of today. I did not see any structured Bible study. There was Sunday school before church where children were grouped by age and they read and supposedly memorized the catechism book. They sang songs from the hymnal. There were no coloring books or other age appropriate learning materials as this would be sacreligious. The classes were taught by parent volunteers, often female. Teens completed their "education" with 2 weeks of confirmation classes. There were no "summer camps" or fun "youth pastors" - this would be considered frivolous. Again, this is a group that is very lamentful and against outward expressions of joy. This is deep rooted in the church history and there were several schisms in the history of the LLL churches because of this very issue. They dont even have any kind of charitable group activities like food drives or fixing poor peoples houses (i.e. habitat for humanity) - even though they are talented in so many trades. Although there are some charitable hearts among them, no doubt, they avoid showing any outward charity toward "worldlies." Prayer - is only a personal thing, even before meals. If someone were to lead a spontaneous group prayer in an informal setting they would be frowned upon, as though they were trying to glorify themselves to the group. The young people (teens) have "gatherings" at family homes where preachers come to say a few words. Preachers are seen as infallible and should be treated with utmost reverence. There is some minor Q & A at the end of the preachings for those who have enough guts to ask a question. Another post, another day, I will tell you about their complete lack of critical thinking...
    Bunless.
    p.s. the Bible as a gift wont hurt. I alluded to this before, however, you need to protect yourself from hearbreak. But you know, with God all things are possible. Posters here are living proof.

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  74. Would the fact that his father is the preacher change anything? Meaning would he be more or less likely to question his father's teachings?

    And if I were to invite him to church sometime in the future..... Most likely not for some time, until he starts opening up more about his faith. But should I take him to my own church? We have a female pastor, she is absolutely wonderful but I don't know how he would react to that and all the music and everything.

    about prayer....he has told me before that he is praying for me. He probably just meant he hopes I will see that his faith is the one true faith, right?

    and thank you but I'm afraid my heart would be pretty damaged at this point anyway. I won't say I'm protecting myself from it because I feel God is using me to help my friend right now no matter what his will is for the future.
    W

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  75. From what I see, your friend must really truly beleive that the OALC is the "true faith" if he's telling you he's praying for you. And yes, I would think that by saying he is praying for you he means that he's praying you would see that "his faith is the one true faith".
    The Oalc must be "stricter" than the LLC because we had summer camps..we didn't get much time for recreation with all the lessons and discussions but we still thought it was fun. Plus there is confirmation, which I found very boring and tiring because there was classes all day every day. Worse than regular school! In the LLC they have "bible class" on friday nights where any man (never a woman) reads a lesson and then theres questions. Everyone gives their thoughts on it, but in the en whatever one of the preacher's understands is what they go by. They have "day circle" for the little kids that are like 3-4 or somewhere around that age where they have a lesson, play a game, read a story, make a craft and have a snack...That is the ONLY time I ever saw them "pray" before they ate. The little kids would say a prayer before their snack. I never realized that so many people prayed before eating until I left the LLC. It is strange that such religious people wouldn't say a prayer before eating.
    Good luck W! I hope everything works out for you!
    ~TMH

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  76. To piggyback on what MTH says... yes the OALC appears to be much stricter from what I have read on this blog. I will add that being the preacher's son, that means yes - he is more closely tied to the OALC than others might be. Absolutely his prayers are directed toward you recognizing his "one true faith." He will decline your offer to bring him to your church. If he did go, he would have to do it in secret at it is a sin to visit other churches. His perception of the service will be that it is the devils work. The female pastor, the music, the art on the walls, the joyful congregants - he will see this as "proof" that this is a "dead faith" church. He will be so blinded by his upringing that he likely will be unable to see anything positive about the experience. Not to totally bring you down, but that is how the OALC is. It's not his fault. Your quest to open his eyes about what being Christian REALLY means... don't start by bringing him to your Church. Try bringing him to some charity events - that would be a better starting point.
    Bunless

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  77. W -
    OK I can't stop pondering your situation. It's a bit of a pickle isn't it. I would love to know (but I don't expect an answer) - has this young gentleman shown some romantic interest toward you?
    Bunless

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  78. Bunless,
    Yes. It has been obvious for years that the only reason we aren't together is because we can't.
    A pickle describes it perfectly.
    W

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  79. What I am wondering is why he is stringing you along for so long. Poop, or get off the pot. Pretty soon, it'll be another several years and same thing. I guess I'd make a decision, you either have me or you stay in the church. Obviously he can't do both unless you go to his church and be a part of it. You can't change him. How long are you willing to wait? Another 10 years to find out he isn't going to leave?

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  80. I don't know. I wish I understood. I have wondered the same thing. I'm just trying to be patient. I can't imagine having to decide between my family and him. And I don't want to be the reason for his family to be disappointed in him. I want him to leave the church if that is what God is calling him to do, not for me.

    its scary.
    w

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  81. W-
    He needs to leave on his own - not because of you - you are absolutely right about that. Here is what I think...
    Start by inviting him to do charity work with you – not specifically affiliated with any church. Work in a soup kitchen, deliver food for the local food pantry, collect baby items for a pregnancy center, participate in habitat for humanity (he certainly must have a trade skill?). This kind of charity would technically be allowed by the OALC, assuming he doesn’t advertise it, which he won’t. When you follow the commands of Christ – feed the hungry, give drink to the thirsty, visit the sick and imprisoned – treat the least among us as you would treat Him – then he will begin to see the face of Christ in the lowly and suffering – instead of just seeing them as “worldlies.” He will start to see beyond his exclusive OALC group. This will open his eyes that we have important work to do as Christians. You can do these things together and perhaps get a better idea if this is the man God has in mind for you. This is where you start.
    -Bunless

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  82. To W,

    Bunless has come up with a great idea? By sharing charity work with him, that will be a great way to show him what being a Christian is about, and it will be on a neutral site, so to speak. Going to his or your church would probably not work.
    I believe you may also see another side of him as you share these endeavors, hopefully a kinder, gentler one.
    Good luck!

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  83. I never imagined I would get so much help from people I don't even know. ha. I really appreciate the genuine concern you all have showed. I will certainly try to be a good example to help him. Please keep him, and me in your prayers.
    W

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  84. Yes, the OALC is "sticter" than the LLC, but the LLC is still pretty strict.
    No music
    No dancing
    No makeup
    No school sports
    No watching ball games
    No TV
    No card games
    No hanging around "unbelievers"
    No going to other churches
    No reading any other christian
    literature...only that written
    by the LLC or translated to
    english from SRK
    No worldly "christian" music
    Some say no Charlotte Church or
    anything with singing except
    LLC church music, christmas
    music, or childrens songs.
    Think 3 Blind Mice.
    No divorce
    No makeup
    No dying hair
    No birth control
    No alcohol
    There's probably more...just not popping into my head at the moment.

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  85. Interesting. So based on anon 4:53 the LLC sounds like they are distinguishable from OALC in their women's hairstyles... (no buns) everything else about the same.
    -Bunless

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  86. I have questions.....feel free to ignore me if im driving you all nuts with all my questions. I just can't seem to find any other information on the religion.

    Do OALC members celebrate holidays?

    Do they fast, or tithe?

    Do they have something against taking pictures? It seems to me my friend only has a few pictures of himself when he was little.

    Also, they don't seem to name their children biblically which I thought many conservative churches did.

    I know they don't believe the rest of the world is saved....but who do they think we are worshiping in our churches? Do they not think God even cares about the rest of the world?

    W

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  87. Sorry, this is from an LLC perspective, but I thought I'd throw it in anyway. Picture taking isn't an issue. We celebrated birthdays and most holidays. Some people use biblical names for their kids, but more often not. I have always wondered about your last question. That was part of why I couldn't stay. I didn't believe that, and I felt like a hypocrite going around with everyone thinking I believed the way they did.

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  88. Do OALC members celebrate holidays?
    -
    Answer: Yes. They probably don’t throw large parties for MLK day however.
    -
    Do they fast, or tithe?
    -
    Answer: They do not fast that I know of. They do “tithe” although they don’t call it that, and it’s all done anonymously or in secret (they don’t pass baskets around in church). Often they give as service – for example building materials and labor for new churches or for preachers’ homes.
    -
    Do they have something against taking pictures? It seems to me my friend only has a few pictures of himself when he was little.
    -
    Answer: Nothing against taking pictures in itself, but they don’t typically display photos on the walls of their homes. In general home décor should be kept “modest.” Excessive photos would be seen as vanity.
    -
    Also, they don't seem to name their children biblically which I thought many conservative churches did.
    -
    Answer: They have no guidelines regarding naming. In fact they are notorious for inventing trendy names for their children.
    -

    I know they don't believe the rest of the world is saved....but who do they think we are worshiping in our churches? Do they not think God even cares about the rest of the world?
    -
    Answer: They think all but their own church practices “dead faith.” The Bible says faith without works is dead. Most of mainstream Christianity rightly defines “works” as charity, service, evangelism, etc. The OALC definition of “living faith” for some reason focuses on living by the lifestyle rules, and having a repenting heart, confessing your sins to those you have transgressed. Their definition of “living faith” is completely self-centered. This is perhaps my biggest problem with OALC theology. Dwelling on your own guilt and sin is selfish. It keeps you from growing and serving others. This is the devil’s victory - refusing to accept the forgiveness that Christ alone offers. Go out, sin no more, and be a Christian to your community. They just don’t get it. If you ask a preacher "what about all the starving people in africa" or "what about all the people in the world who never heard of the OALC" - they just tell you that the Bible says we are to be grateful for our own Christianity and not ask these questions.
    -Bunless

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  89. It appears, from reading this blog, that the women in the OALC have to wear a headcovering in chuch. In the LLC that is not required. In the LLC they can have a christmas tree and decorations. They can decorate their houses. They can take photographs. In the LLC women can cut their hair however they want.


    A few more added to the LLC do/don't list:
    No dating "unbelievers"
    No earrings
    No going to shows

    When no music was posted by the poster regarding the LLC, when that person wrote no music, they meant no rock/pop/R&B/jazz, those types of music. In the LLC, it is okay to listen to classical music or music without words, as long it is slow paced music. Songs that are normally taboo,if listened to as an instrumentsl, without words, are usually okay, as long as the song itself isn't too "jazzy." If you add the words, suddenly, it is no longer okay, regardless of the content of the words. In the LLC, if a song has words to it, it must be church songs, childrens songs, or christmas songs.

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  90. LLLreader sez: I think it's fine that you keep asking questions. The questions you have are typical of what "people of the world" would want to know about this religion. I think most OALC celebrate birthdays with a cake (candles?), gifts for each other at Christmas, and trick-or-treating on Halloween. NO Christmas trees though, since people could actually worship the tree itself. Funerals are used as a warning time, to remind us that our salvation is on the line. Very little is said about the person who died--since to glorify a person takes away from God. When a women cooks a meal for visiting OALC members, and they say "thank you", the appropriate response is "thanks to God". The idea there is not to take any credit yourself. Sports are the same, if you were on a team, and you won a trophy, you would be bringing glory to yourself. You might notice how often OALC members who write on this blog will describe themselves as "poor examples of Christians" and apologize if they have offended anyone. That is part of the fear of "being someone". Low self esteem is thought to be a virtue. For me, overcoming the feeling of not being of much value has been the hardest struggle since leaving the church. That belief is so pervasive--it's in every aspect of the church--and it certainly serves to keep members from questioning the teachings. No doubt about it W, you have a bumpy road ahead. Good luck Dear.

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  91. I have to admit there are some very admirable traits to members of these communities. I especially admire the fact that they serve as a way of giving. If only they were more concerned about sharing their gift of salvation with people other than those in the church.

    You are right, my friend once told me that he is a bad example of his faith. It is good to be humble but its sad to think that he feels like talking to me and listening to music makes him a poor Christian. It's a twisted sense of humility in my opinion.

    They celebrate HALLOWEEN!?? wow. but no Christmas trees though....that makes sense

    Just for a quick mushy story.....before I understood why my friend disliked makeup he would always comment and say, what are you wearing mascara for? I don't like it. That was long ago, and so finally I stopped wearing it because I was tired of hearing about it (although I didn't quite understand why it was such a big deal) One day I finally asked, whats your big problem with makeup? And he said, you are beautiful the way you were made, without makeup.

    :)

    He is different than most men these days. I guess that just makes it harder accepting what made him that way.

    W

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  92. I just went back and read the old post from 2005 "Married to the OALC". And I feel slightly sick to my stomach. ugh....

    I can't imagine how those people got married to a member without understanding the OALC. Then again I can't imagine getting married to an OALC member knowing about the faith either.....
    W

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  93. LLLreader paints a great picure of the lowliness and humility that OALC members strive for. Well said.
    -
    Anon 12:11 - Thanks for highlighting some more LLC/OALC differences. I now remember many of these silly things as why the OALC called the other LLL branches "dead faith." It was the allowances for hairstyles and music that did it. How absurd.
    -
    And poor W - it is a bit insulting for him to claim his interacting with you makes him a bad Christian example. Typical OALC. That just really sucks. Next time he says something like that call him out on it. Say, "I know your community beleives they are the only true Christians. That kind of teaching is non-Christian in and of itself. I am a Christian, I have a living faith. Your comment is suggesting that you are compromising your values by interacting with me. That hurts me. I am capable of having an open mind, but I need you to do the same if we are to continue this relationship. You dont have to 'settle' for me. There's plenty of men out there who care about hungry children in Africa and who would appreciate me for who I am. I dont have to wait around for you."
    -
    OK I guess you could leave off the last comment about Africa and all that...
    -Bunless

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  94. And another difference, in the LLC they can use the internet, the OALC can't. The LLC can wear jewelry, but not earrings. The LLC only says God's Peace to other LLC members, not just anyone. They don't have much wailing during church, although I do think it may have been more common in previous decades. The practice may have just died out. There is a focus of being a poor or weak christion, it was usually heard in every sermon.

    In reading many of the posts, the OALC seems very, very similar to the LLC in the way they interact with each other, outsiders, and the way they treat those that have left the faith. They also believe they are the one true faith and that all others faiths are dead, including other LLL branches. Similarily, they also teach not to question the teachings. As someone pointed out about the OALC (in general) being vain, ditto for the LLC (in general). They have rules that try to supress vanity (makeup, dying hair), but the vanity just comes out in other ways. More preoccupation with hair styles, good skin, clothing styles, houses, cars, vacations, children. That may also have something to do with the fact that one of the few approved activites are shopping, so it goes that they may get more materialistic. And like some other poster pointed out, that the LLC young are more open to outsiders before they get married, then suddenly most have nothing to do with them any longer. They are taught that if you don't have faith in common, then there is no true bond. Without that true bond they say it is impossible to have true friendship. You can only have a true friendship with someone in the LLC, someone who cares about your undying soul.

    When I ran across this blog and started reading, I was amazed, shocked to find out there were other Laestadians out there that were so unbelievably similar to the LLC in the way they think. It probably comes from a previous shared history and splits over minor dos and dont's like whether or not women should cut their hair. About 90% of the posts posted by OALC members could have been posted by someone from the LLC.

    This blog is extremely helpful. Only a previous Laestadian (or current) truly knows the peculiarity of the culture, and can see all the small things that are only noticed if you have lived it.

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  95. no, trust me anon 2:49,
    It is waaaay more peculiar to those of us who have never lived in it.
    W

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  96. To W-

    Be careful! Even if your friend actually leaves the OALC or tells you that it won't matter in your relationship,the brainwashing that has already occurred runs deep and it will be hard for both of you in the long run. If your friend were to attend another church with you, he might as well throw a brick through the window. That is like the end of the world in the minds of the
    OALC. It would be okay to not attend any church but never ever attend any church except the OALC. His family will never accept you or your kids. Their cousins will tell your kids they are going to hell to their face. You should never compromise your faith and Christianity to fit into the OALC and their customs...for example..wearing makeup. Be yourself and don't change for some guy. My advice is to move on and find a real Christian to spend the rest of your life with. Believe me, I speak from experience!

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  97. I absolutely agree. And I wouldn't have stopped wearing makeup if I knew the real reason behind his dislike for it.

    But I have survived through over 2 years of this difficult friendship and I can't give up now just because it looks like it may not end up pretty. I appreciate your advice. I just think there must be a reason God has put me in his life. If I were to give up now my friend may never realize that the world is full of Christians.

    I have to admit the thought of me marrying him and his family never accepting me or our children absolutely horrifies me. I don't know if I could handle that. But I still feel like I may be the last chance he has. If I desert him he will just be more convinced of everything that he was taught. In other words....I will leave a bitter taste in his mouth of the world.

    What exactly do you mean you speak from experience....? Don't feel the need to answer, I am just curious if there are people out there in my situation.
    W

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  98. You would not be accepted by them if he left the church to go with you. It is way worse, in their eyes (beleive it or not) for him to go to another church than no church at all. Some families are better about the accepting part though. If you were to start going to his church for his sake and got married, if you kept close ties with you family it would be considered "dangerous." Your family would be outsiders and having too much contact with them (any more than is necessary) would be reason to be concerned to them.

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  99. Bunless, I think you are spot on. "Dwelling on your own guilt and sin is selfish." Too true. If you lived anywhere near me, I'd invite you out for a cup of coffee (even if you are Catholic! just kidding - I go to mass occasionally myself). You appear to have acquired a fair amount of wisdom in your journey out of Laestadianism. I'm glad you have joined our little on-line community.
    W: one cautious comment, from one who also married a "worldly." It appears that you feel some obligation to him, to enlighten and educate him and maybe even "save" him from the OALC. He's not your responsibility, and you can't. He has to have some motivation to see the truth outside his upbringing, and you really don't have any control over that. If you only knew how he regards you, you might not be so tender-hearted toward him. He probably feels superior to you, that you actually "contaminate" him and are a temptation of the devil, when and if he is honest with himself. At best, he will have such conflict over his attachment to you that it is likely to bring great misery. Not that you should "dump" him: sometimes we just have to go through this crap. Been there. It usually makes us stronger, and sometimes wiser. Many blessings to you. MTH

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  100. I will never be able to join the OALC. I know the truth, God loves all who believe. Not just those in the OALC.

    I will not give up my family either. He understands that.

    Maybe if he decides he is willing to leave the church we would need to move away for some time. I don't know what his decision will be. I know that leaving his family would be the hardest decision of his life. But if he does it because he realizes that God's love extends beyond the OALC walls he will realize it's the only thing he can do.

    I am the first to admit that becoming friends with this man has not made my life simple. But now that I am in the situation I cannot give up on him. Unless he asks me to.
    W

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  101. "But I still feel like I may be the last chance he has."

    W, I know you mean well, but this is the worst reason in the world to stay in a relationship with someone. It won't work. You've gotten really good advice here. You need to look out for yourself, and maybe question why you choose to care about someone who will not, or cannot, put you first. You deserve it!

    On the other hand, maybe taking small steps in helping him articulate what he really believes might help him realize where he is really at as far as faith is concerned. Many people have a very hard time talking about issues of belief and faith, either because they haven't thought about it very much or because it is so personal to them. So starting with very basic elements of belief might be a starting point.

    You do have a pickle here tho :-)

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  102. LLLreader sez: To anon 2:49 "only a previous Laestadian truly knows the peculiarity of the culture". Yes, you are so right! We ex-members have a unique bond, we know the subtile messages. To W-I don't think anon meant the church is peculiar, just that it has special characteristics, or maybe he did mean it's peculiar, what do I know? I thought your following comment was a good joke though. Here again, several of us are explaining what we learned while growing up Laestadian. I don't think anything being said will offend OALC members. These are just statements of fact, and folks both in and out of the church will agree on that. The conflict comes when some people think these are the weirdest ideas they have ever heard, while others find the teachings reasonable and true. The church does work for some people, while it just kills others spiritually. As for myself, the church only taught fear and uncertanity. It has been a long journey for me to find the peace that God provides. Some time ago, on this blog, someone calculated the percentage of the world's population that will go to Heaven, according to the OALC. Anyone remember that?

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  103. Well CVOW nice to hear from you. Your OALC community does seem a bit different from the one I am used to. They sound nicer.
    - To the W to whom this thread is dedicated: I am siding with Norah and MTH on this one. You can't save him from the OALC and you deserve a man who puts you first. If you knew what he was really thinking about you... it's possible he regards you as a tantalizing diversion, placed by the devil to make him question his true faith. We are not kidding about that. On the flip side... it is a long and hard road to leave the OALC. Some of us have reached a place of "harmony" where we (and our children) still have a relationship with our OALC relatives, we have overcome the "shunning", if only by just ignoring it and "elbowing" our way into their family functions like uninvited guests. We have found ways to visit and interact comfortably. It can be done. My children feel "accepted" by my OALC family and hardly notice the "differences" (they obviously don't have the sensitivity to it that I do). But I can also say my OALC family is more accepting than many. Coming from a preacher's family is a tougher nut to crack. The OALC has little or no concept of what unconditional love is. Your friend might only love and commit to you on the "condition" that you join his church. Dozens of us posters here know what that "condition" feels like. It sucks! That is why as adults recovering from the OALC we are more accepting of diversity. I never want anyone thinking they have to meet some criteria for me to love them. If we all came this far, perhaps your man can too. You are getting tons of great advice here. There's a reason God brought you to this blog. Start with charity work like I said earlier. Doing the Lord's work is one good way to separate the boys from the men. I think you will learn a lot about this man when he is given an opportunity to serve. See what he does with it.
    -Bunless

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  104. I realized that after I had posted people were probably wondering what that long bunny trail was all about! The point I was trying to make for W is that there is a chance your friend's leaving (should he choose to do so) might not be excrutiating, but from the vast amjority of posts here have testified, the odds are against that.

    I'm praying for you -- and that doesn't mean I'm praying you will "repent"! I just hope that God will guide you to the right place -- and he always does. Even if things get black, there's a reason for it.

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  105. These posts bring back thoughts of my own background, growing up in a 'mixed' marriage. My mother was ALC but her first husband was Catholic. His parents did not attend their wedding, but after they got to know my mother they accepted her and all was well. She was widowed just a few years later, and again married outside the church. The conflicts as I was growing up was not about the church, but about other compatability issues and what would be called "dysfunctions" today - mainly alcoholism both within the family and in the extended family.

    My own children married outside the church and to me, compatibility is key. Compatibility as far as faith, values, how children should be raised.. these are all very important issues. And as the Bible says, the 'unbeliever' may become a 'believer' by the witness of the spouse, although one should never bank on that, it is just one facet of the relationship.

    Cvow, I enjoyed your bunny trail. I recently had some OLD 8mm film transferred to DVD and am reliving my youth. One of my uncles filmed many feet of film. Immigrant conservative ALC grandparents and rowdy WWII veteran uncles and smokin' aunties. God love 'em all. They had one of the closest family bonds I have ever seen, they truly loved each other and I remember it well, even though life was crazy at times.

    W - yours is a story that is just beginning to be told. I don't want to discourage you from true love either..and I think you truly do care about him.

    Enough of this rabbit trail also..

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  106. stranger in a strange land2/22/2008 07:20:00 AM

    Cvow--I think your grandfather's best friend from the FALC/IALC was my great-grandfather. Did the community start with a "G" and the preacher's last name start with an "I" or a "K"? And did they move to Northern Minnesota? I think I am part of that family you're referring to. I would love to talk to you, not necessarily about Laestadianism and religious issues, about about the history of G and more information you have about my family's life there and life there in general. You can get a hold of me through Free since we've been in contact.

    "Stranger in a Strange Land"

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  107. When I said "peculiarity of the culture" I maant as anon 12:57 said that there are special characteristics to the culture many times not seen until you have lived it. It was not meant as a peculiar chuch per say. There is a way of speaking, general attitudes, expectations, just many things that a Laestadian (former or current) can see. Little innuendo's that are only understood by other people with LLL history. It's hard to explain, but I know all you previous and current LLL members understand completely.

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  108. Anon 11:36, I do understand. The innuendo, expectations.. but they are very hard to see until you step away from them a bit and see them as an outsider. Garrison Keillor said, I believe it was in New York but speaking about his move to Denmark if I remember correctly - ? that he had to move away from Minnesota to see it as it was,..(something along those lines). He was able to gain perspective and write, talk, understand, and even appreciate it better when he moved away.

    I've been immersed in my culture for a long and and am always looking for perspective to appreciate it. Think its time to move to Denmark. :-)

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  109. LLLreader sez: To anon 11:36---right, I knew what you meant and I think you explained it, about the best that I have heard, in your last post. It's just THERE, it's attitude, it's just knowing what the response will be--it's just in the air.

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  110. You guys got it right. One of the most annoying things about being an ex among OALCers is "reading their minds." It's so easy to torture yourself with what you know they are thinking without them saying a thing! It took me decades to put most of that behind me and just be me among them, unappologetically. We create a lot of our problems for ourselves, but I think it's sometimes next to impossible not to. MTH

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  111. I can't sit there and tell myself, "Stop reading their minds." Because the thing is - we DO know what they are thinking - because we thought that way once ourselves! The only way I have been able to deal with that is accept it, move on, ignore it, try not to dwell on it. Yep, they are thinking and assuming the worst. I can either accept it or run away. Many just run and never look back. Can't say I blame them.
    -Bunless

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  112. Soo true! And do all get that "hi gail" in "that" voice. (just a made up name by the way)..I can't explain it but they all say "hi" to me in an almost sad/trying to be excited tone of voice...definately a different tone of voice than they used before I left the LLC. I guess they're sad that I'm "going to hell"...? lol My husband has noticed that they all use the same tone of voice when saying hi to me when we've been around them. Anyone else notice this?
    I can read their minds when I'm around them too(from being raised like them)..it can actually be quite uncomfortable, but I always make sure to act relaxed or they'll be thinking "her conscience is being pricked". lol

    To W- I know a minister's family where 3 of the children have left the church. Most of their family is very accepting, but the father/minister does not treat those family members who have left fairly. I think that he has gotten a bit better around them over the years, but not very good. The mom is very good about it. Of course her number one wish would be that her children would "repent", but she still treats them the same as the Laestadian children. Like Cvow said, it can happen where the family accepts you. My immediate family treat me and my husband really good, and most my Dad's family are fairly accepting of us too. But the rest of my moms family is a different story. My Grandfather is a old LLC preacher, and not very accepting of outsiders. I guess my husband and I are pretty lucky that my immediate family treats us like we're normal, and atleast one side of my family. My Grandfather is just way too darned old fashioned, and I think that when his generation of "elders" pass away, the church will start to change. Maybe not.. Anyways back to what I was saying to W, Like Cvow said, it is possible to be accepted by the family. You'll never quite fit in, but some of them treat their "outside" relatives really good..
    sry about the speel....hope it made sense

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  113. Anon 4:10 here,
    oops typo. The 2nd sentance was supposed to say: Do you all get that "hi gail" in "that" tone of voice.
    (I started reading my post after I posted it and realized that didn't make sense..)

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  114. "We thought that way ourselves:" sad, but true. To think that I used to be so smug about "worldlies" as a teenager, so certain of our specialness, superiority, etc. I think I deserve whatever I may have suffered, as penance! But because we at one time fully participated, it does allow us to be less judgmental of the close-mindedness and spiritual arrogance of OALCers (and other religious folk): we've been there. Whew. I hereby ask God to forgive me. I've never felt the need to ask forgiveness for thinking like a Laestadian before! But I think I need it.
    May we all be blessed.
    Many Trails Home

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  115. Amen to that! And to anon 4:10 - I know exactly the tone of voice you are referring to. No further explanation needed. They talk that way to dissenters.
    -Bunless

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  116. I'm just not sure what to do anymore.

    Bunless....does he really think of me that way? I never thought of my non-Christian friends as devil's obstacles....

    I know I deserve somebody to accept me for who I am, which he doesn't sometimes. But then again, every relationship requires some sacrifices. The fact that I have been willing to sacrifice things for this relationship shows me it's more special than ones I have had in the past.

    I don't want to save him. I believe he is saved. He says he is and it's God's place to judge that. If he is saved and I am.....I don't see where there is a problem. The only problem is he won't accept that I am saved. We all know how much I would like him to choose me over his church, but I would never want him to choose me over God. God is more important than any earthly relationship. A man that puts God first is who I really want.

    I'm really tired of waiting around to see what he ultimately chooses. It will have to be me or the church but I could never say that because then it will be clear to him that his church was right, that I'm trying to drag him from salvation.

    I go back and forth between moving on and hanging on, but maybe what it comes down to is I just can't stand the thought of losing my closest friend. Especially since I know he is struggling with what to do as much as I am. I'm not the only victim of this situation.
    W

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  117. Many Trails home,

    I want my friend to gain your understanding.
    W

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  118. whats with the saunas? Were you joking about being naked with a bunch of people on Saturday night?

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  119. To W-
    Speaking from experience -
    This may shock you but my spouse's family who is OALC trys to undermine our marraige and break us up in an effort to get him back to the "one true living faith". Did you know that a "spiritual divorce" is encouraged if the spouse or non OALC member is keeping them from attending the OALC church. They put a positive spin on divorce if it is done to get their wayward member back into the fold and under their control. You said that you wanted your future husband to put God #1, but my experience has seen that the "church and it's doctrines" are the most important aspect of their lives. That is a big difference. Have you attended church with him yet? If you do, go as you are and don't take on any of their customs so they will not mistake you as being a convert or one that could be converted. Bunless is correct when she says that he really thinks of you as devil's obstacles. It is an attitude taught from birth of superiority and is something hard to explain but can be felt. Pray and really listen to what God is leading you to do. Don't let your heart and love overshadow that.

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  120. To "Sauna Anonymous:" How could you have found your way onto this site and not know about saunas? But anyway, these are NOT coed sauna experiences. What usually happened was this: Dad would say, "We are invited to so-and-so's house for sauna" (Saturday night, of course) and we'd all trundle over, usually bearing some baked goods as well as a change of clothes. Then people would go into the sauna sequentially in groups, men together, teenage boys together, young families with small children as a single unit, etc. It was quite social and a lot of fun. Coffee and baked goodies and conversation would be waiting post-sauna. And the only proper sauna (can't stand "saana") is wood-fired, in my opinion, and I like dipping hot water out of a tank, mixing it up with cold in a basin and pouring it over me, in lieu of a shower.
    In Finland (lake country east of Lappinrantta) I had the pleasure of a sauna with a bunch of naked OALC girls and we all jumped into the lake afterward, in full view of the cabin - for which I felt a bit self-conscious, but it was dark and nobody seemed to give a hoot. Anybody had the jumping-into-snow-after experience? MTH

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  121. W,
    Agreed. Every relationship requires compromise and sacrifice. If both parties are willing to do that, you will more than likely have a good relationship with whomever you end up with.

    If he truly believes you are not saved, and you stay with him, it will be a long hard road. All of his people, and himself, later on in life will view him as suffering. Everyone he knows, in his church, will feel sorry for him, because the poor man doesn't have a believing spouse. You more than likely would be viewed as the bad one.

    I can't imagine anything being easy with him, in or out. But from my perspective, I would think the best chance you would have with him, is for him to leave the church and never goes back...ever. But only if he truly believes that he is not wrong in doing so. If he leaves, without believing that, there is a good chance he would go back to the church in later years. At that point the attitudes I wrote of earlier in this post (feeling sorry for him because he is married to you) would likely fester. It is also possible that he at that point could also be bitter against you for standing your ground.

    If he leaves, you need to be very clear, VERY, VERY CLEAR, that he is doing this for himself. That he is leaving because of the doctrine not because he wants to be with the woman he loves. It happens all the time that people go into marriages thinking they can possibly change someone into something they view as being even better than what they have now. Rarely does that work.

    You are right, though. You are not the only one suffering. He is suffering too. At this point, he is probably wondering why he didn't listen to the advice given by the OALC, and only be in contact with others in the church.

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  122. Yep! We used to have contests to see who could take the most steam. Then if there was soft snow outside, we would go outside to make snow angels, naked of course. We also thought is was fun to watch all that steam come off our bodies going from very hot to very cold.........ahh memories!

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  123. Saunas and snow - you bet! We'd fire that baby up as hot as we could get it and then the contests between the boys would begin. First timers settled for the quick dash outside, roll quickly in the snow, and dash back in. Then it would evolve into "run outside, roll three times, and dash back in." Then it was "dash outside, roll once, run across the farmyard to another snowbank 100 feet away, roll there, dash back and roll one more time before going in." And on and on it went until someone realized it had gotten really stupid!

    I even convinced my non-Finn, non-OALC spouse that it was a lot of fun, and got her to do it as well!

    We had a lot of sauna parties where most of the people were non-Finns. Guys would go take their saunas and then when they were happily settled won with a cold drink, the gals would head off. I suppose it was chauvinistic that the guys got the "ensi loyly" - the first steam. Oh well.

    If you don't know saunas, don't try to make anything nasty out of them. An old Finnish saying that goes something like "Olle saunassa niinkuin on kirkossa" -- behave in a sauna as you do in church. Oh well, I guess we blew that one with occasional cold beer.

    Finns even like to conduct business in a sauna. It kind of level sets the playing field when you're all naked, and that's the point to which I was alluding.
    And I guess this isn't helping W at all, but it was a fun bunny trail...

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  124. um wow. sauna stories have just about scared me out of my friends life ha.....thats all really weird. Especially since my friend's parents have a sauna...

    By the way, we aren't really thinking about getting married for some time. If you can't tell, neither of us are ready. But I mentioned this earlier....if we were to get married would it be wise to maybe move far away for a while? I know its more practical to be close to family for the first few years but I think it would just be a mess being divided by both families.

    Maybe I will visit his church next weekend. If I can work up the nerve. ha. Just to see this all first hand that they are indeed God's children, and human.

    W

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  125. W--you probably should visit the church as soon as you can. I have wonderful relatives who have always treated me with kindness when I have been there for funerals and such, even though I left years ago. It really depends on the family--we will be thinking about you (and saying a prayer).

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  126. Stylux back...

    Referring back to previous posts regarding healthcare and musing on the problem as I watched Henry Waxman, the grand inquisitor in the baseball steroid issue... I got to wondering about fascism... and lo and behold I am referred to the link below and up pops Minister Smitherman in Ontario, Canada... It is really strange the resemblance between Waxman, Smitherman and our old friend in the "documentary" business.

    www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php

    Check it out..

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  127. W-
    Listen to anon 10:38. These are wise words. In EVERY marriage romance fades, and things get rough - after about 4-7 years. This is a typical marriage cycle. Even if he agrees to leave the OALC of his own accord, and opts to spend his life with you... down the road when those marriage demons surface, he will have the added conflict of that decision he made with his faith. He will start thinking how he should have listened to the preachers, he sold his soul for a woman... it could get seriously ugly. He wont be able to distinguish the normal tribulations of marriage from the battle over good and evil that he has been brainwashed with since birth. I have seen it happen - so has anon 10:38. You need to think this far down the road. Seriously, as you mentioned this isn't easy for him either. Making the best decision for both of you - might not be the easiest.
    -Bunless

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  128. Wow, bunless, that was depressing. After 35 years of marriage, now I'm worried that the romance might fade...hmmm...I still buy her flowers and try to do little things just because it makes her smile, and she does the same thing for me. Maybe I'm lucky -- I'm married to my best friend.

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  129. Yeah. Agreed cvow. Marriage isn't easy. I was never trying to make it sound like a walk in the park. Although my parents make marriage seem like the easiest thing in the world. They have been married for 25 years and they still hold hands around the house. hah.

    My point is...I don't want to walk out of this relationship just because it is difficult. I could regret that for a lifetime. I think I will stop trying to make everything rational because faith is not always rational. Sometimes you have to put your heart into something even if it doesn't seem like the easiest road.

    Sometimes everyone here makes the OALC seem like its a trap that nobody can get out of. But you all apparently have struggled through and made it. If it's God's will for my friend to leave, he will. And it won't be more than he, or I can handle. Because God doesn't give us more than we can handle.

    W

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  130. I wasnt trying to be such a downer - but when I read the anon 10:38 post I thought of all the "mixed" marriages that I have seen fail. I have seen this in my immediate family. But let me point something out - CVOW - did you not convert to Catholicism, whole-heartedly, following in your wifes footsteps? Think about that W! Has this young man shown any interest in your church, your faith? Has he show any interest in even just learning about it? I have never met CVOW. But you can just tell he is an all around great guy who loves unconditionally, and puts friends and family before himself. Is your friend this way? I have an AWESOME husband, we are also Catholic. But marriage and especially children - not always easy. This guy needs to get on board and support you, support the relationship, and at least ACT like he cares what you are about on a spiritual level. Instead of this nonsense about how his relationship with you is a compromise to his values. You cant change this guy - only he can change himself.
    -Bunless

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  131. LLLreader sez: Well, no, God doesn't--but he also expects us to make smart decisions. You know what your situation is--and I'm concerned that you aren't talking to him in as candid a way as you talk to us. Maybe he is the one that won't talk (probably, since Finn poys can tend to be closed mouth) strong, handsome, dears that they are. If you can't say EVERYTHING to him now--it ain't gonna happen down the road. I think you should visit the church and then have a "all the cards on the table" meeting with him. Yes, we struggled, some much more then others. Many of us were born into the church though, and that's a different situation. If he won't talk to you now, you are going to have trouble. How involved are you with him? Do you both date others? Does he sneak off to see you? Does he explain why you haven't met his family? You are having to ask us about the church customs. He should be telling you all of this stuff, and giving you both a chance to explore what it all means to your relationship. I certainly think it's just fine that you have been asking these questions, it informs others about these issues, and gives us another chance to understand what the OALC is all about. I'm fairly old, and I still get fresh insights about the impact the teachings have had on my life. Trying to be delicate here--if your relationship is physical and he hasn't let you into his life any more then he has---then you better move on. Please forgive me for that, but I'm a Mother Hen type that wants to protect. God bless you Dear.

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  132. When we got married, we had an idealistic vision of us happily attending both OALC and Catholic services each Sunday, and exposing any future children to both faiths. That lasted a very few months, as my wife quickly got tired of hearing the Catholics get bashed every Sunday by the OALC preacher and stopped going with me -- and I understood. We never got into any bashing of each other's faith -- never.

    However, I still stayed in the OALC for another 16 years or so -- although the last ten of that I had become disenchanted and had drifted away in all but name. We had also moved away from an OALC community, so that made it easy.

    I had attended Mass more and more frequently over those years, and finally our Priest, who had become a good friend, told me that since I seemed more "Catholic" than most of his parishioners, was I waiting for an offer to be carried into the church in a chair on the shoulders of four priests, or what was I waiting for (and I wasn't going to get the ride either, so I could forget that)? I jabbed back and told him it was nice that someone had finally asked me, so fine, I'd enlist! Shortly thereafter, he confirmed me into the RC church and it's now going on 19 years, and I haven't ever regretted my decision.

    In our case, we handled the "mixed" marriage pretty smoothly for many years, but then with my upbringing, I had never looked down on a Catholic -- or any other faith for that matter -- so we had a stacked deck in our favor, I suppose.

    I think the message that's coming through here, W, is that it can work out well, but the odds could be against you and the future could be rocky. Be very careful.

    The Lord took good care of me, as he always has, but my story is out of a minority, I'm afraid.

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  133. I will add that CVOW apparently came from an OALC community that was on "a slippery slope to hell" (his own words!). The OALC I was raised in you would NEVER even consider "happily attending both OALC and Catholic services each Sunday, and exposing any future children to both faiths" - in the OALC that I know, it is a sin to attend other Churches - Catholic church being the worst. No OALC that I know would ever consider letting their OALC-raised children be exposed to Catholicism. Also CVOW mentioned cold beer in the sauna. What the heck? Sacrelige!
    -Bunless

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  134. Well bunless, as the Catholics say, they have a debt to pay to the Lutherans since Luther really was ahead of his time and now most of his objections have been resolved in the RC. In order to repay the debt, we plan to teach them how to drink -- in front of each other. :-)

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  135. W: you may want to read some posts at this website:
    http://lefttheoalc.blogspot.com

    There is also some discussion about marrying into or out of the church.

    Also, here is a website created by an ex oalc member about the oalc church. THe picture is of the oalc church in brush prairie washington. I grew up there and can verify the accuracy of the information posted.

    http://oldapostoliclutheran.com

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  136. Having godly parents, grandparents and great-grandparents is a wonderful heritage and legacy. The faith of my ancestors is evident today among their descendants, whether they be Apostolic, Baptist, other Lutheran, Catholic, nondenominational, or other Christian denominations. They are not just Christians in name only, but in sincere belief in the finished work of Christ. I need to remember to be thankful for this heritage!

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  137. I am grateful to all my ancestors, regardless of their beliefs. Without them, I wouldn't be here.

    For my children, I intend (like Barak Obama's mama) to expose them to many faith traditions and the practice of inquiry.

    For those wanting to discuss Christianity, please see:

    http://postlaestadianrevival.freeforums.org

    I've also posted a link in the sidebar.

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  138. A family therapist told me recently that children who have been raised with some sort of religious training such as Sunday School or church do much better in therapy than those who do not. Unfortunately, there are all too many children being raised without any faith traditon whatsoever. That's not to say inquiry is not good, I do think it is. But sometimes maybe we don't see how important a spiritual life is to our kids.

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  139. You are absolutely right LLLreader, he is a very quiet man. But we do talk about it often, now. Although sometimes I can tell I am pushing him too hard for answers he doesn't really know himself. He has never been very open about his faith. He said the reason he did not explain earlier about the church was his fear that I would give up on our friendship. Which he may have been right. He had been made fun of by many "worldies" for his beliefs before and he knew I wouldn't understand so he just left it out of our friendship. It was only recently that we began discussing the church and it seems to cause arguments more often than not for obvious reasons.

    I think what everyone here forgot is that it's not as simple as him deciding to leave his church. It's choosing between a person he has only known for a few years, who could end up deserting him, and the family that has stood beside him his entire life. He doesn't want to make the mistake of leaving his family behind unless he is positive I will be there for him forever.

    W

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  140. Right now, at this stage in the history of world, I am more concerned about the millions of children being raised with absolutist faith traditions than those being raised with none at all.

    Obama's mama didn't have a ideology, but she used to wake him up to look at the full moon. She was full of wonder for nature and loved all kinds of people, and her children speak of her with great respect and love.

    Naturally, Obama was attracted to the most inclusive of Christian churches when he felt drawn to the faith.

    If he is elected president, his grounding in religious pluralism may have a profound impact on how America is viewed in the world.

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  141. That might be. My thought is with the kids down the street, so it's a different sphere. After watching the religious right over the last 25-30 years though, I don't have much faith in the ability of government to positively effect spirituality. The country may have turned right for a number of years, but our culture continues its decline. It may be that an absolutist worldview might some day appear to be the answer to this crisis. That would be a mistake, and anyone with messianic tendencies makes me a bit uncomfortable. Revival, a true revival, where people don't need morality legislated to them but which comes from the heart, is needed.

    That said - moral absolutes, right and wrong, are not bad. They are good. Anyone out there struggling to raise children - be encouraged that teaching them right and wrong is a good thing. Stand firm no matter how tough it gets!

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  142. How does this fit in with W's discussion? Just that W and her friend may have more in common than they think. If they have the same religious values, Christian values, that's a big step in the right direction!

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  143. Does Obama belong to an inclusive church? I wasn't aware of that.

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  144. W -
    He doesn't have to leave his family for you. They will treat him differently, but he doesnt have to respond to it. It took time but many of us still have relationships with our OALC families. A person who is mature in their beleifs and who has learned to accept all walks of life, including the OALC, has a chance at having a healthy relationship with their OALC families. But it takes a seriously committed and gutsy ex-OALCer to do that. As one poster said, you need to get this all out on the table. Something tells me we bloggers know more about the sprirtual conflict in your relationship than the two of you have ever discussed together.
    -Bunless

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  145. W-
    If he so decides to leave the church, it should be for God and God only; God will be there for him forever. You, in all your best intentions, may not. It shouldnt be about the two of you at all. You cant save him, but you can try to lead him to a relationship with Christ. Thats all. I have been in his shoes and I have been in your shoes. Neither is fun, niether is easy and neither is a winner. I will be praying for both of you that you may hear Gods guidance.

    I also posted at the I left the OALC website, as anonymous mentioned above, under Welcome Amanda heading, regarding my experiences with this issue. Please read there (so I dont have to copy and repost :)

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  146. Norah,
    That is very true. And it is the reason we are friends today. We value the same things. We both may have different reasons for our beliefs though. For example I want a large family because I love children. He wants a large family because he believes it is a sin to do otherwise. That could end up being a problem. But I do think that our agreement on what are important values is a step in the right direction.

    We believe so similarly and we agree on everything except one thing that matters above all....my salvation. As I said before, I absolutely find nothing I have heard about the OALC to be harmful except the exclusivity of salvation they teach. It seems that no matter what I believe I cannot be saved, to him, unless I attend that church.

    W

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  147. hp3,
    About the Welcome Amanda blog conversation,

    Was it you that was dating the man from the church? What is your situation now? I am very interested in your story because I feel like although everyone on here has given me wonderful advice I feel like another "worldy" may understand my feelings regarding my friend. Although that situation is actually different in that their "rules" are not as strict as my friends.

    W

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  148. Well....that didn't go well.

    The last words out of his mouth tonight were, "There is one living faith, your faith won't save you. Goodnight."

    Ahhh the tears I have shed for this man are countless. I feel I have gotten into a more difficult struggle than any person can handle.

    Please pray for him, and me. My heart aches

    W

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  149. Norah, Obama belongs to the United Church of Christ, which can be quite progressive and inclusive. That denomination was one of the first in the nation to ordain women.

    I say "can be" inclusive instead of "is" inclusive because the UCC is also a congregationalist church. Which means that all ultimate authority in decision-making rests with the local congregation. So there are also many conservative congregations within that denomination.

    Obama's congregation is one of the largest in the denomination, and also one of the few African-American congregations.

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  150. W, I'm so sorry! I hope in your grief you are more than a little angry at his late-in-the-game damnation of you (isn't that what it is?).

    In the old days, it was illegal for a gentleman to "lead a woman on" without intent to marry, as it prevented her from finding a decent suitor in her youth.

    This guy has wasted enough of your youth. Let yourself mourn, lean on your friends, blog about it, but please don't wait for him to change. There are lots of honorable single men out there.

    Have hope, W. You're going to be ok.

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  151. I absolutely agree with free. When I was attending the OALC and dated a few girls from the *gasp* "world", the results were rarely good. I was the same way as W's friend-quiet, avoided church-speak, and kept the relationships in neutral. I've come to realize that I was using the relationships as a rebellion against an institution in control. W, I suggest you at least let it go until your friend can come to terms with the tempest of thoughts running through his mind.

    the_p

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  152. w:
    Actually I was raised nth generation oalc, and tried dating outside the church. I was told I had to stay in the relationship that my "disobedience" had created, and that the discord was of my own doing -again my "disobedience" to the church.

    Then once I left the church I had a current member want to date me. It was different that being a "worldly" from the start, but I felt the same way you do about trying to save him. In fact, I sometimes have to wrestle with those same thoughts and emotions regarding my family and friends who have chosen to stay in the church yet reject me.

    I also want to let you know I strongly disagree with you regarding having the same beliefs is ok even if you have different roads getting there (ie wanting a large family) Motivation is everything to me! I can act any way I want, but is it out of love? Fear? Obedience? To God or to the church? The end result only appears to be similar, but in practice will have very different end results!

    I am so sorry for your heartache, I wish it were not so. Yet that last comment from him sounds just like the thousands Ive heard growing up and leaving the church. He has to want to change and it sounds like that is a long, long way off for him, if at all.

    Let your Christ-like light shine, to him and to all the world, but dont put your life on hold. Jesus loved the lost but he didnt follow them around and beg them to follow him.

    Free: even if w isnt angry, I am. But more at the church. Someone from within doesnt really stand a chance of interacting with someone from without... they're too sheltered and indoctrinated with the church and not Christ. Even if you havent been back for 30 years, I have had similar experiences and conclusions as recently as 5 years ago.

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  153. Oh W that hurts, hurts, hurts. I say confront him. Tell him he is wrong. What the heck have you got to lose? Show him this site, this thread. Ask him, just once, do it for you, to examine his faith from another perspective (dont use the word question). Tell him you are not going to be his "worldly" diversion any more. Tell him you don't accept his "late-in-the-game damnation" of you (as free put it). Tell him it's time to put it all out there on the table. Offer to resarch Laestadius and the history of the OALC Church together. He probably is alarmingly ignorant of his own Church's history and theology. Understand what LLL calls living faith, and compare that to what the Bible says living faith is. Study the Bible together, both the KJV alongside a "normal" version to compare the differences. Agree that you will visit his church if he visits yours, more than once, and understand that there may be things that seem off at first, to each of you, but you must both agree to be open minded. Put it all out there and give it one last shot. Tell him you will no longer put up with this "cloak of secrecy" about the church issue any longer. If he can't handle it - then there's a better mate out there for you, no question. Step up and be a man buddy. Dang it I am disappointed in this guy. But not surprised. Sorry W.
    -Bunless

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  154. I cannot understand how he can say to me that I am not saved. It's like me saying, My name is Robert and somebody saying no it's not. How can he believe that he can judge who is saved? What do those preachers say that can convince people with brains of this?

    The hardest thing is I have not talked much about him to anyone because I liked the privacy of our friendship. So I have nobody to turn to on earth. But God is faithful and he will comfort me. Does everyone know the footprints in the sand story? Its wonderful to think he is carrying me at his time when I lack the strength to walk.

    W

    Thanks everyone.

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  155. W, I am so sorry.

    Why in the world is he dating outside the church if it comes to this in the end.. I agree, if you are still interested in him then it's time for confrontation. You have absolutely nothing to lose. Take the high road, put distance between you. HE is in danger of losing YOU - you are not in danger of losing HIM.

    Grrr, if you were my daughter, he'd have a thing or two to hear from me. (the monster mother - don't mess around with my babes and break their hearts!)

    Keep praying for God's will to be done. Maybe it's not in God's will that you end up with this guy. Yes - Footprints in the Sand - God is there, carrying you when you aren't able to walk on your own. Bless you Dear W. Hugs to you.

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  156. If there are any members of exclusivist churches reading this - I suggest you "question" your sons and daughters as to their dating habits. You are not dealing with faceless, anonymous 'worldlies' out there, you are deaing with real people. Either be open to relationships outside the church, or keep it inside. Period. You can't have it both ways.

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  157. Well said Norah! Everyone keep praying for W - that a real Christian man will come her way and end this heartache. -Bunless

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  158. Bunless....
    Some how you have come to judge who is a "real christian" and who is not. Ironic....very ironic. Have been talking to Charles Barkley lately?

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  159. I am not up with current sports events and dont understand the Charles Barkley comment. Enlighten us please. Good point though - perhaps this OALCer that pulled this "late-in-the-game damnation" on W really didn't mean it that way. I should give him the benefit of the doubt. You are right, I dont know who is a real Christian and who is not. Perhaps this man's actions incorrectly reflect the status of his soul. Forgive me. Maybe he will come through with an apology and an explanation, I'll be holding my breath.
    -Bunless

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  160. Be careful. You might be stunned by his extreme intelligence.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCaAx9SRZRU

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  161. A quick update, so bunless can breathe again, haha.....

    Today he is acting like he didn't tell me I am going to hell. He doesn't seem to understand that he just needs to let me go now. It may take a while for it to sink in that I will not spend my life with him as long as he believes I am not his sister in Christ.

    I'm not shutting him out completely because I am not angry with him. I realize he cannot believe otherwise. Not now anyway. I still plan to give him the bible I bought for him and hope that he will seek answers to the questions he may have. I also pray that experiencing my friendship will help him in the future. I may even attend a OALC service sometime just to satisfy my curiosity so I can put this all behind me.

    Anon 10:51 I watched the clip and I am sad to see that as Christians we are not doing our part to let our light outshine those that "fake it".

    W

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  162. To the "Charles Barkley" commenter (whoever CB is): I support Bunless; she does not need to apologize. A "real Christian" would not judge and pronounce another Christian damned ("not saved"). Judgment is mine, sayeth the Lord. . . . The OALC only pays that lip service, when it suits them. And they most definitely believe everyone else in the entire world is damned. (Some posting here have equivocated and said they don't know for sure, but is it not the understanding of everyone on this blog that OALCers believe that only OALCers go to heaven? Therefore everyone else goes to hell. Simple logic.)
    W, I think "the p" made a very profound comment. I also suspect he is seeing you as an exercise in rebellion against a suffocating, controlling culture. It is exciting, illicit, and a huge temptation AS LONG AS it remains secret. If you come out into the open, the real world intrudes and things may change drastically between you. Talk to anyone who has had an illicit affair . . . usually a married person, but the dynamics are similar.
    Many blessings to you.
    Many Trails Home

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  163. LLLreader sez: MTH you are SO right on with your comments about the secret relationship being much like seeing a married guy. The outcome is that the gal ends up feeling "less then". To W--you are really a neat gal. You have touched my heart, as well as the hearts of others here. I want you to go and visit the church. The Apostolics always say, "come and see". So, go see! I would advise you to talk to friends and family about this situation. You don't have anything to hide. NOTHING!!!!Why keep it quiet? It reminds me of abused women who hide their bruises--only in this case, the bruises as on your heart.

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  164. This is probably not the update you are expecting.....
    We have decided to remain friends. But we won't talk about dreams of a future together. I made it very clear that we will not be married under these conditions.

    He agreed to spend some time with my family. He is willing to make some changes in order to make our friendship known. His parents now know about our friendship, and they of course, do not support it. This is not to say he has made the decision to leave the church, or even question it, but it's baby steps in the right direction. I am not hoping for a miracle overnight.

    I know I planned to just tell him I was through with him and his beliefs, but I care too much about him to desert him. He doesn't deserve that. Even if he told me I am not saved, he doesn't know better. Another concern I had was if we completely separated now it would likely result in us missing each other and falling back into pretending like everything will just turn out fine.

    MTH, I think rebellion has a lot to do with outward appearance. If a person rebels they want it to be in the open, not hidden. It is mostly for attention. I see what you mean but I am pretty sure he has not been my friend to simply be rebellious. He follows all other "rules" very closely. If he wanted to be rebellious he wouldn't drag my heart into it. He is a caring person, although I have spoken mostly of his worse qualities on here.....

    I did not end this relationship once and for all is because I kept thinking, what would Jesus do? And I couldn't imagine him given up on a friend. He doesn't give up on anybody. Maybe my dear friend will someday open his eyes and leave the church, and maybe he will not....either way I will just be myself and hope he will catch a glimpse of Jesus in my actions and my words.

    I still ask for all of your prayers. I wish he just knew how many people are praying for him.
    W

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  165. That is a huge baby step that he has introduced the concept that you exist to his parents. Huge. You have no idea. Perhaps there is more to this man that I was giving him credit for. You are right, Rome wasn't built in a day. I think you did the right thing. -Bunless

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  166. LLLreader sez: Right you are Bunless. Big step!

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  167. W - rebellion can be a very inward thing. Those of us who grew up very quiet and compliant following all the rules on the outside had plenty of rebellion in our hearts. I wish you the best in this venture, but my advice to you is what I say on here to all who get their hearts entangled with OALC members: RUN as far and as fast as you can away from this situation. I realize you have decided not to do that so I wish you godspeed.

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  168. But if I turned and ran wouldn't I be just like them? They tell their members to turn and run from the world, from people like me.

    The strongest are like David. He realized that Goliath was five times his size and strength but he had the Lord on his side. I want to have the faith of David, who was not afraid to do what God asked of him.

    W

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  169. Being like David is about you as an individual, I would never encourage you to waiver from your convictions. What I am referring to running away from is a relationship, a union with someone from such a disparate religion. Go in peace...

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  170. LLLreader here---W, how are things going?

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  171. Well it has not been an easy couple weeks.

    We have been working on communication and it has been going relatively smoothly. I am learning the true meaning of what the patience of a saint entails. And I am far from that point.

    I was just wondering about something he said a few months ago. He said, "You are strong in your beliefs and I need you to help me."
    I didn't really read into it then but looking back I am not sure how to take it. Maybe he just was being humble, or maybe he really sees something in my relationship with Christ that he desires.

    Most days I am blessed with an indescribable peace, but sometimes I still worry about what I have gotten myself into. This weekend I am giving him a bible and I am interested in discovering how he will react. I have post-noted a few of my favorite passages but I hope they won't offend him because a few are verses in which Jesus says he died for everyone's sins.....So we will see how that goes.

    Thank you for your concern LLL :)

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  172. I gave him the bible. And he was genuinely thankful. He said it was a wonderful gift. Does that mean anything? ha. I guess I'm not expecting him to read it cover to cover right away but I am praying he will open it to try answer his own questions.
    W

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  173. LLLreader here: W--be aware that he probably won't know much at all about the Bible--how to look things up or anything. Maybe you should get him some kind of study guide or something. I didn't even know that there was an old and new testament. I didn't know there were different books in the Bible. I didn't know what it meant when you would see a name and numbers after it--like John 3:12 . I was 20 something when I got any of that information. I had a lovely neighbor women who explained how the Bible is arranged--and she didn't seem shocked that I was so ignorant of the most basic information. She is gone now, but God Bless her for her lovingkindness.

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  174. I did post note about 10 of my favorite verses. Just inspirational verses that really touch me when I'm struggling. I know that it is difficult to just start reading the bible. I had no idea where to start when I gained an interest in The Word. I started by looking through my parent's bibles for verses they had marked and I learned so much that way. I didn't want to be pushy and give him a study guide.

    But thank you for the suggestion...hopefully that will be something I can give to him in the near future.

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  175. I dont know how many times I read "In the beginning..." - a thousand. But never got anywhere. Start with a Gospel like Matthew, and also have a Biblical timeline handy to reference. Perhaps the Bible you gave him has this in the fore pages? Tell him about how the Bible was composed and who are the authors. He probably needs some Bible 101 basics. I read "The complete idiot's guide to the Bible." There are also Bible "Cliffs notes." Sounds crazy but better than nothing. Its just so hard to follow if you're reading the Bible in a vacuum. -Bunless

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  176. Yet be aware that he has probably been taught that the "cliff notes" and "references" are the 'work of the devil' and only created to 'mislead' him from the 'one true oalc' interpretation of the bible...

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  177. What I found most helpful was to read the "familar" passages that were referenced in a Sunday serman and read the entire chapter in context, not just the referenced verse... Then I became curious to read more before and after the "familiar" passage and I realized there could be a different spin on the interpretation once I knew more of the story.

    There are so many, many different ways to have a bible study, but I believe that if you pray before, during and after a discussion with your friend, God will guide your time together. You are both in my prayers.

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  178. I did the same as HP3. I would come home from church and read the chapter containing the "familiar place " taken that day in church. I would read it in the KJV and then the NIV study bible.

    It was amazing how so many times the oalc interpretation was so different that what I read on my own, with the help of the NIV.

    I strongly recommend reading both versions. Good luck!

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  179. wow! I just finished reading all the posts to this!

    To W:
    after reading for a looong time I kept feeling over and over that your senses were/are right on with getting him a bible! This is where it begins and ends, alpha and omega! Encourage him to read it for HIMSELF, not his family, friends or fellow church members, but for him! Encourage him that with God's help, the Holy Spirit WILL reveal the meaning of the scriptures to him. I started with the book of John when I started openly questioning (the familiar places and the understanding of them) within myself. I couldn't even admit it to myself for many years. I was AMAZED at how at how the word CAME ALIVE, and Jesus was a tangible, LIVING, God to me for first time!

    W: You are blessed with a gentle, intuitive, spirit.
    you have received much, much wonderful advice here, but I think that your intuition told you what to do right from the beginning.... we all just kind of confirmed that for you.

    My husband and I have been out of the church (both were born and raised in OALC) for going on 2 years. Yes, it's tough, it's painful.... How was it for Jesus on the cross?

    And yes, I've cried many tears for forgiveness to God for how I thought and felt about other christians (aka:worldlies) and how I proudly sat in a "sea of scoffers" so many times. Likewise, I do not want repeat that sin and in turn... scoff at my former church members. Judge the behaviour- Not the soul!

    I have been praying for you and your friend as I've been reading, and will continue to do so...

    God be with you both!

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  180. w - I seem to remember this site mentioned before, but couldnt find it for sure. It summarizes a lot of the oalc beliefs, many of which its members cannot articulate. It may give you more of a grasp on where your friend may be at. Also, FYI, I went to the very church who's sign is pictured on the site, and I believe the site to be accurate. oldapostoliclutheran.com

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  181. Well.....I thought I would let all of you kind people know how things have turned out.

    My friend and I recently decided that we should separate and move on.
    I guess many of you were right. I was not willing to accept that our faiths are too different. I was brought up to not judge people by their denomination. But I have learned that not everybody can see that way.

    We parted on good terms and I will pray for him, I ask that you do too. He is still overly concerned with his parents and the church's rules.

    I will miss his friendship like crazy for a long time. But I wanted to thank all of you for your support. God placed you all there when I needed understanding. God Bless you all.

    W

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  182. LLLreader replies: Thank you for letting us know how it turned out. I have thought about you and wondered how you are doing. A strong belief system that is taught from birth is powerful indeed--it goes to the bones. Those of us that left because we no longer believed the OALC teachings have a much easier time of it then someone who leaves because they want to be with a person outside the OALC. Resentments would have surely flared down the road. Blessings to you Dear Girl.

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  183. Thanks for checking in, W. The lessons you learned from your friendship will, I trust, help you with every friendship down the road. Certainly your compassion and curiosity will continue to serve you well.

    It occurred to me that your friend, being the son of a preacher, may have been outed from this blog. There are (no doubt) many dating-age OALC "PKs" in BG. But a blog reader may have had a talk with the preachers about this thread, and then there may have been some more talk with dating-age male PKs in general, or with certain PKs in particular. So your friend may have been under pressure.

    Wonder where RWB went?

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