"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Vote Today . . .

Tuesday, November 07, 2006

Vote Today . . .

As if your grandkids' lives depended on it.


  1. Oh, I forgot to add, if you are Republican, vote NEXT Tuesday.

  2. I feel sorry for your lack of wisdom. I think you just throw these kinds of comments to get people fired up.

  3. I just took it as a funny comment.
    Your comment, however, I took as judgmental and rude.

  4. LOL Free.. actually, I voted mostly Republican, except for our Democratic governor in Michigan. Found DeVos too over the top and ran a very nasty campaign. And the Amway connection - eek.

    We had some interesting ballot proposals here also.. DNR funding, ban affirmative action, hunting for mourning doves, eminent domain.. an interesting year and a big turnout in our area. Will be interesting to watch the results tonight!

  5. I voted a split ticket: Republican, Democrat, Green, and a write in. It went smoothly. The one thing that frustrated me was researching the issues for the down-ticket items like ballot proposals and such.

    As far as the comment, it made me chuckle, and I think I can see a bit of mischieviousness in your picture. Way to go!

  6. Free, I must have had a defective ballot or something because I didn't see any Democrat candidates on there. The Republicans and Libertarians had to share. Oh well, maybe next time...no, come to think of it, probably not.

    The important thing is make sure you vote your convictions, whatever they might be. I figure as long as I vote, then I have the right to bitch.

  7. Good girl Free! I smiled when I read your comment. To anonymous, lighten up and life is so much sweeter. My friend and I exchange ALL donkey and elephant type humor that we come across. She's a misquided Republican and I am a very wise Democrat (for the most part).

    I did vote a slightly split ticket because there were 2 Republicans in my state that deserved my vote. One being our Atty. General and the other being the Sec. of State. To all of the rest of the Rebublicans on my ballot.....bye bye now! Can't wait to see the results. I'm especially curious how a few of the proposals will go.
    One reason I vote is because I feel it is my duty as a Christian and to honor my grandparents who forfeited so much to come to the U.S. from Finland.

  8. Thanks for having my back, friends -- although frankly, I myself feel sorry for my "lack of wisdom." But one does one's best.

    cvow, as I inked in my ballot this evening, it was particularly gratifying to know that it was your votes mine were cancelling. Conservatives are rare in these parts, and getting ever rarer.

    But seriously, has anyone read about the election in Nicaragua? Don't you find it disturbing that the standards we require for fair elections in other countries are not met in our own?

    The Carter/Baker pursuit of U.S. election reform is worth supporting, regardless of today's outcome.

  9. Ah Free, as if I could hope for anything else!

    Not to worry, I'm sure a little more time on this forum and I'll start to enlighten you to the truth as well. You young'uns just need to get dry behind the ears (yup, that's old farmer talk -- a big hooray to anyone that can tell me the origin) and grow a little more before you'll be ready to make the big step and vote GOP.

  10. I had to chuckle too with frees statement, I agree, lighten up anon!! I voted Democrat all the way in my state. I still would have chuckled at her statement if I were Republican!

  11. Many Trails Home11/08/2006 09:42:00 AM

    cvow, you're going to force us other old dufferettes to come to free's defense, not that she needs defending. I for one became un-Republican as I grew older and began to think for myself.
    I realized after the last election that I had voted a split ticket - split between the PEOPLE I voted for and the referendums. I voted Republican all the way on the referendums, vice versa on the people. That's because the Republicans STAND FOR lower taxes, smaller govt, etc but the jerks are giving us and the country away to the corps and their buddies with the bucks. And you have to agree that I am right about that. So I don't trust the SOBs one bit, the double-crossers. And that's about as political as I'm about to get. MTH

  12. A female politician from San Francisco as Speaker of the House. Maybe we'll begin to see some investing in education and healthcare. Nice!

  13. MTH, you're right, Free doesn't need defending! She can beat me up just fine without you ganging up on me too, especially since my cohort Stylux must have gotten bored with the forum and no longer has my back. :-)

    I also agree that the old Republican party used to be all about fiscal responsibility and small government. That's why these days I vote for more and more Libertarians! Most Democrats have drawn one line that I will not and cannot cross and that is their support of legalized murder (abortion). If they take that position, I won't vote for them even if they walk on water.

    Actually I look for the middle of the roaders because I don't like either extreme. If the Dems would have run Lieberman in the last election, I'd have voted for him, but he wasn't far enough to the left for the Dems so they cast him away, and in bittersweet revenge, he just blew their replacement away running as an independent. I always really liked Sam Nunn as well, and thought he and John Warner would have made a heck of a team if those party lines could have been crossed.

    So the pendulum has swung, and that's a good thing. It probably swung too far, which is a bad thing. Oh well. The inefficiencies of our electoral system are one of the things that makes America great. It's kind of hard to keep the ship of state going in the right direction, but the effort makes it worthwhile even if we wobble from side to side.

    Anon, I do wish that education and health care and social security and all sorts of social issues would get more attention. There is a right answer between the extreme positions usually taken by our two party system. Frankly, the thought of Pelosi heading up the House majority makes me shudder. The last good thing to come out of San Francisco as far as I can tell was the 1906 earthquake...or wait, there is Anchor Steam as well. :-)

  14. Yes, where did our friend Stylux go?

  15. Dear CVOW,
    I used to be a firm supporter of NO ABORTION at any cost. Then someone put in my brain that if young girl (aged 8 to 12) gets molested she can become pregnant. Unfortunately in the world we live in, this can and does happen. Do we force this child to carry a baby to term?
    Thats all I have to say on that.

  16. ijumped: How does that really help her? An abortion won't make it go away. It is not a better or easier option for her and definitely not for the baby! What about all the girls who are forced into having their baby murdered and then they have to live with that for the rest of their lives. And her molester gets away with it because he can just take her in for an abortion and nobody is any wiser (because Planned Parenthood doesn't usually report it!).

    Another thought on the subject; carrying the baby to term gives her opportunity to bless (adoption a blessing to adoptive parents and the baby) and be blessed (by having a child to love). Granted they are both difficult choices, but so is abortion and where is there any blessing in that?

  17. Abortion is a really tough issue, and I know that there are the cases (although not nearly so many as the pro-choicers would have you believe) where your heart just aches for the woman or girl involved.

    That does not change the fact that the unborn child did no wrong but will be killed anyway. That is incontrovertible and undeniable evidence, regardless of our human emotions.

    The good Lord never said it was gonna be easy.

  18. cvow,

    You are against legalised murder, so I guess that means you are against the death penalty as well?

    I ask because a lot of people seem to support the death penalty but do not support abortion.

    So different from here in Europe. Any thoughts?

  19. Yes, I am completely opposed to the death penalty. I do not think we have the right or the obligation to take anyone's life.

    I am however in favor of prisons where criminals are given an 8x10 cell with no decorations on the wall, no radio or tv or internet access. I would give them a dry bed, wholesome food, adequate medical care, decent clothing, and treat them with the respect due any human being. They would live with a nine pound hammer and a large pile of rocks that needed to be made into small rocks. A day of rest would be granted each week. There would be no parole for "good behavior", which is the most ridiculous concept that anyone ever came up with. If you do the crime, you do the time, but no, I would not have anyone "riding the needle".

  20. Minnesota just voted in the first ever Muslim to the House of Representatives! What do you think of them apples?

  21. Anyone wanna join me in a dance? Happy, happy, happy here. Hooey, Rumsfeld out, Pelosi in, what next?

    We Washingtonians are still waiting to see if Mr. Stronglaw beats Ms. Youngheart . . . that would be David Reichert (R) and Darcy Burner (D). Eight years ago I did some work for then-Sheriff Reichert, who is a lovely, principled (and needlessly goodlooking) man. I'll never forget putting my arm around him in a photo-shoot and knocking against his Kevlar vest. The fact that he NEEDED one gave this liberal an immediate, profound lesson in reality.

    So you think I would vote for him, right? Nah.

    By his own admission, he "goes where they tell me to go." As much as he would like to be green, for example, he is indebted to the business interests that funded his campaign.

    Sorry, Dave, hope ya lose.

    Regarding abortion, cvow, "the Good Lord" if you will, aborts 15-20% of all pregnancies before term. Very wasteful, no? That's certainly what I thought when two of my pregnancies ended without warning.

    Of course, there are many "natural" reasons a potential being does not become an actual being (across species -- read Sarah Hrdy for a fascinating study of this). In my case, a stressful job was probably a factor, photoshoots and all. When I quit, I carried to term.

    Now if you consider it murder for a woman to decide what factors should end a pregnancy, then I urge you to do everything you can to make all pregnancies wanted and birth control 100% reliable, affordable and available, around the world.

    Just don't pretend that the state should be the arbiter.

    If today I discover I am pregnant (because of a birth control failure), it should and will be ME who decides how to handle the potential life within. No one else.

    So call abortion murder if you wish. Just be honest about the moral complexities, and about where you end and I begin.

    And pray that God won't ask you to answer for every drop of wasted, ahem, "baby batter."

  22. I think when you vote you have to look at all issues. Not just vote against Democrats because they support abortion. I don't support abortion either, but I vote Democrat because I look at all issues, not just one. Republicans believe in the death penalty, to me thats murder. But I wouldn't let that one issue decide which way I vote.

  23. A big amen to you Faith.

    On Abortion:
    I have no right to decide for someone else about something that so profoundly affects their body and their life. It is a very dificult issue and I will always be thankful I never have had to make such a heartwrenching decision.
    And I refuse to be a "one issue" voter. The fact that I voted for two republicans this time (albeit a very rare occurance)reassures me that I am not like a sheep just following a party line. I hope I continue to have the compassion and the open-mindedness to see the whole picture in polictics and in life.

  24. ijumped, wondering if you could email me. Need some advice, if your interested. Thanks!

  25. ijumped (and I don't mean to pick on you because it's apparent several other posters have similar views), but you say "I have no right to decide for someone else about something that so profoundly affects their body and their life."

    I assume that means you would not have the right to make that decision about the unborn child's life either.

    And Free, I would never argue with the Lord if his decision is to end a life. I think he has the wisdom to make that decision -- I don't.

  26. BTW, I'm not a single issue voter. An election is almost always a process of choosing where compromise can be made in order to support a greater good. For example, while I am opposed to tax and spend politicians, I might consider voting for one if they professed other things that I felt were good in my mind. However, there are a very few tenets that are so central to who I am that I will not violate them. Abortion is one of those.

  27. Let's be logical. Neither ijumped nor you nor I can make that decision for a host-dependent fetus. That physical dependence, by the way, entails a significant physical threat, in spite of the wonderful advances in health and medicine.

    That threat may not seem real to most of us. No matter, it is there. Hundreds if not thousands of women die from pregnancy-related complications every day. A woman is much more likely to die bringing a pregnancy to term than by having an abortion.

    Do any of us have the right to tell a woman she MUST face that risk?

    Even if you insist that a fetus is a person rather than a potential person, how can its rights supersede the rights of a woman to control her body and protect herself from a possible threat to her life?

    No, among free people, abortion must remain legal. But we can do a lot of things to make it rarer . . . . such as providing free and effective birth control. (Ironic, isn't it, that Viagra is covered by insurance and birth control isn't?).

  28. I think abortion is so terrible I can't even think about it too much. Just the thought of that little person (and it really is a person) being killed. How gruesome. And it extends into a culture of violence.. ever notice how preoccupied our 'entertainment' venues are with darkness and death? Here I go again seeing ominous signs ahead, but it reminds me of the Romans finding entertainment in the coliseum. Satieted, we lust for more. And our children suffer in so many ways, not the least of which is the loss of innocence. Where is it going, and where will it end...

  29. CVOW
    I don't mind if you pick. I want to enlighten you just as you want to enlighten me!
    I think Free2bme answered much more eloquently then I feel capable of.
    Just as I don't want the goverment in my body, I don't want them in anyone else's. I pray that you are working hard to protect and better the lives of all children who have been brought into this world unwanted and unloved. This includes social programs that cost us taxpayers greatly. By the way, I am very happy to be in a high tax bracket so my hard work can supply goods and services to those who for whatever reason haven't been given or haven't known how to get ahead in life. How is that for a run-on sentence?
    Sorry so hurried, but I'm outa here until late tonight!

  30. Oh, fun. The abortion question. I honestly don't know a single ALCer who would self-identify as a pro-choicer. For that matter, neither I nor my parents (life-long ALCers) know any ALCers who self-identify as Democrats. Any out there?

    I used to be extremely anti-abortion, but after learning a little more about the issue, I came to realize there's a lot more to it than I had realized. Unwanted pregnancies are unfortunate, and none of the options available to a woman change that fact. There is no consensus on this issue, so I hesitate to impose my views on others.

    There are several thought-provoking analogies I've heard. The first one says that if a woman must be forced to give birth, everybody with an extra kidney that's compatible with someone on a donor's list should also be forced to give up a kidney. Completing a pregnancy is more dangerous to the health of a woman than having an abortion, and giving up a kidney is more dangerous than not doing so. Nontheless, if a person on a donor's list will die without a kidney, it's murder not to give up the kidney.

    The second analogy deals with the idea that a fertilized egg has the same worth as a born person. Let's say you're in the middle of a fertility clinic and a fire broke out. Back in the waiting room on one end of the clinic, there's a child screaming for help. In the refrigerator on the other end of the clinic, there's a vial with 100 fertilized eggs chilling. Which do you save?

    Outlawing abortion will not end it. But improving sex-education, making birth control available, and giving women the support they need if they choose to continue a pregnancy will help to lower the rates of abortion without commandeering women's bodies for state purposes.

  31. Another facet of the abortion question is what effect our hedonistic society has on the demand for abortion as a contraceptive of last resort. In effect, throw-away babies, conceived casually. Not that this is anything new, but the fact that this behaviour is now socially acceptable, and there is now a whole industry built on handling the unpleasant byproduct - a precious, innocent child.

    Kahlil Gibran:

    And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said,
    "Speak to us of Children".
    And he said:

    Your children are not your children,
    They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
    They come through you but are not from you,
    And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

    You may give them your love but not your thoughts,
    For they have their own thoughts.
    You may house their bodies but not their souls,
    For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow,
    which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.
    You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.
    For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

    You are the bows from which your chilren
    as living arrows are sent forth.
    The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and
    He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far
    Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;
    For even as He loves the arrow that flies,
    So he loves also the bow that is stable.

  32. Ilmarinen,

    Many ALCers probably do self-identify as pro-life (just a guess).. However, I have a hunch that many/most in the various branches of Laestadianism are Democrat, regardless of the differences in the social issues between the two parties. I talked to someone from the IALC and she said she didn't know anyone in her church who was a Republican. My mom-in-law (IALC) and many of her generation here are/were staunchly ANTI-Republican. (i think she reads AARP and watches network news too much lol).

  33. LLLreadersez: During my working years I saw many children who were unwanted and mistreated. I saw mothers who were completely unable to provide a good life for their children. I saw emotional and physical abuse of children that broke my heart. To have a child come into the world and suffer at the hands of a mother who doesn't want him--I came to believe that abortion is necessary.

  34. LLLreader: I should have said "I came to believe that abortion rights are necessary".

  35. You can never be sure that the parents will misstreat and abuse their kids even if you see some alarming signs during the pregnancy. So why don't you just wait and kill the kids at a later stage in their life when the fact that the parents actually misstreat them has been confirmed? I can't see any logic in that some people consider children more human as soon as they have exited the uterus. How can the change of location make such a huge difference that they stop seeing it acceptable to kill them although they considered it acceptable to kill them as long as they were in the uterus?


    If a woman claims to have the right to kill her unborn child, I guess she also considers it her right to kill her kids also at a later stage in their life in case she doesn't want to put up with them any longer?


    As for the "thought-provoking" examples about kidney transplantation and fertilized eggs, I must say that they failed to provoke any pro-abortion thoughts in me.

    For the first, the kidney transplantation problem is a problem that has been created by the modern medicine. It's not natural to give up a kidney for a kidney transplantation, whereas it is very natural to give birth to children. Besides, I think organ transplantations in general defile the sanctity of the human body and degrade it to a mere source of "spare parts". I don't know what I'd do if I was in need of an organ transplantation, but I doubt I'd accept an organ from someone else. I think I'd probably want to die rather than to live with a "spare part" from another person in my body. But I don't judge anyone for having an organ transplantation as long as it is based on mutual consent. The desire to live is strong and it may easily overpower any other principles...

    For the second, it's not natural to have fertilized eggs in vials either. The only acceptable way of fertilizing human egg cells would be if a married couple had problems conceiving and they could be helped by fertilizing her eggs with his sperm. But it shouldn't involve any destruction of fertilized egg cells because it would be exactly the same as an abortion, i.e. destruction of human life. All other use of human fertilized eggs should be prohibited by law just like abortion, although I doubt it ever will be prohibited by the law in my part of the world. The development seems to be going in the opposite direction. The use of in-vitro fertilization was recently approved to be used also for single women, not just couples, and they are already discussing whether it should be acceptable to kill "defect" babies even after they have been born and not just before.

    It wouldn't surprise me that by the time I become old and useless they'll have made it an acceptable practice to kill all old and useless people so they won't be a strain on the resources of the society. Of course they wouldn't call it by that name to start with, I think they'll start by talking about all those pitiful old people who are just suffering and don't have any joy in their lives any more and how much better it would be for them if they didn't have to live any more.

  36. However, if I ever was in a situation described in the kidney transplantation and fertilized egg examples above, I think I'd follow the principle that is often stated in the Orthodox church about existing "certain" life being more worth than potential life. In the kidney transplantation example the life that would survive without a kidney transplantation (=the life of the possible donor) is more worth than the life of the person whose life only potentially could be saved by the kidney transplantation. And in the fertilized egg example, the life of the babies would be worth more than the life of the fertilized eggs, which could only potentially develop into babies.

  37. "Completing a pregnancy is more dangerous to the health of a woman than having an abortion"
    Would somebody care to prove this as a real fact? Seems those who are pro-abortion 'prochoice' love to repeat it, but where is the proof?

  38. So LLReader, why is it that after millions of 'unwanted' babies have been aborted, there is just as much or more of a problem with child abuse? According to your reasoning, those abortions should have gotten rid of the problem. (or do we need to kill 4000 more every day--to roughly double the current number) And what about the woman who have aborted babies who go on to abuse their other children? How does that compute?

  39. Thanks Theo, you and I are reading from the same page in the book. You stated the case very clearly.

    The only pro abortion argument even conceivable to me is if a person can look the Lord in the eye and state they truly believe that life begins at the first gasp of breath and not at conception. I do not agree with that, but at least that would help me understand the person's position. However, if that belief is not held, then abortion is the planned and willful taking of human life. So is euthanasia, to which Theo referred. That one is a different issue and is completely indefensible.

  40. RE:Birth Control

    I have one simple question.

    Why is ANY church against
    birth control?

    It seems like a no-brainer.

    The Biblical injunction if
    believeable was made at a time
    when the population was sparse.

    Church leaders sit back in their
    well-fed,modern health care
    societies and pass restrictions
    that today are causing starvation,
    the spread of AIDS, and misery in

    The world population is now 6.5
    billion and forecast to be 9.0
    billion by the end of the century.
    Without universal birth control
    the food and natural resources
    will eventually run out.

    If you want to see what might be
    the fate of this tiny blue planet,
    for a prototype of earth check out
    the history of Easter Island on

    Also check out Cannibalization
    under famine conditions.

    We might end up eating each other!

  41. There is one passage in the Bible that deals specifically with the act of causing a woman to abort a pregnancy. And the penalty for causing the abortion is not what many would lead us to believe:

    "And if men struggle and strike a woman with child so that she has a miscarriage, yet there is no further injury, he shall be fined as the woman's husband may demand of him, and he shall pay as the judges decide. But if there is any further injury, then you shall appoint as a penalty life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise."
    Exodus 21:22-25

    This is a very illuminating passage. In it we find a woman losing her child by being stuck by men who are fighting. Rather than it being a capital offense, however, it is relegated to a civil matter, with the father-to-be taking the participants to court for a settlement. But, as we read on, if the woman is killed, a "life for a life," then the men who killed her shall be killed. Some have claimed that the life for a life part is talking about the baby. But from reading the context we can see this is not true. It also states a tooth for a tooth and a burn for a burn. Babies don't have teeth when they are born, and it is highly unlikely a baby will be burned during birth. It is pretty clear that this part refers to the mother. Thus we can see that if the baby is lost, it does not require a death sentence -- it is not considered murder. But if the woman is lost, it is considered murder and is punished by death.

    What has been so clearly demonstrated by the passage in Exodus - the fact that God does not consider a fetus a human person - can also be seen in a variety of other Bible verses. In Leviticus 27:6 a monetary value was placed on children, but not until they reached one month old (any younger had no value). Likewise, in Numbers 3:15 a census was commanded, but the Jews were told only to count those one month old and above - anything less, particularly a fetus, was not counted as a human person. In Ezekiel 37:8-10 we watch as God re-animates dead bones into living soldiers, but the passage makes the interesting note that they were not alive as persons until their first breath. Likewise, in Genesis 2:7, Adam had a human form and a vibrant new body but he only becomes a fully-alive human person after God makes him breathe. And in the same book, in Genesis 38:24, we read about a pregnant woman condemned to death by burning. Though the leaders of Israel knew the woman was carrying a fetus, this was not taken into consideration. If indeed the Jews, and the God who instructed them, believed the fetus to be an equal human person to the mother, then why would they let the fetus die for the mother's crimes? The truth is simple. A fetus is not a human person, and its destruction is not a murder. Period.

    It is time to stop the one-sided view of abortion being proclaimed by Christian leaders. These leaders do not -- despite their claims -- have a biblical mandate for their theologies. It is time to stop preaching that the Bible contains an undeniable doctrine against abortion. It is time to stop the anger and hatred being heaped on abortion doctors and upon women who have abortions, especially when it's done in the name of a God who has not written such condemnations in his Bible. It is time to stop, because the act of making a judgment against people in God's name, when God is not behind the judging, is nothing short of claiming that our own beliefs are more important than God's. (Brian Elroy McKinley)

  42. Tell that to Scott Peterson, Anon (by way of Elroy).. Peterson is on death row for the double murders of his wife Laci and their unborn son Connor. Is there a double standard here, then? If the woman decides to kill the child it's okay, but if someone else kills it, it's murder - in some cases? Can we have it both ways?

  43. Anon, do you really take those passages literally -- that a person is not a person until they reach the age of one month? Even you have to admit that is asinine.

  44. Well, I think this demonstrates that one can use scripture to support either side of this debate. As some cultures do not even name an infant before the age of 1 month, it is not surprising to find this in the OT.

    cvow, et al, I'm curious . . . in your ideal society, what would recommend as the penalty for those who abort a fetus?

  45. Free, I don't know about penalties, but in my utopian world every woman would have access to a magazine like Mothering www.mothering.com. I don't always agree with the politics, but I don't think there's another publication out there which is as life-affirming and supportive of women, and their unique and worthy roles as mothers. Their world view would be a great legacy for moms to pass on to their daughters, and sons!

  46. Troll,
    overpopulation is a myth. (now, didn't ya just know I was going to say that lol)

  47. Free, that's a really compelling question. I have no idea what the right answer might be. My initial reaction is hopefully with compassion, but this might be something where extenuating circumstances would pay a huge part. I suspect I'd like to see something that would be more substantial if it is the result of recreational sex, and they were drunk, and oops, guess what?...versus a lot more understanding in one of the really difficult scenarios that have been described. I dunno. Good thought provoker there -- thank you, Free!

    On something mentioned earlier by Faith -- "Republicans believe in the death penalty, to me thats murder." -- I'm Republican (like anyone here hasn't figured that out!), and I am opposed to the death penalty. I do agree that is murder as well. Blanket statements rarely cover the ground they hope to! That would be like me saying Democrats support abortion. Now while that might have a better chance of being true out here on the left coast, I know a passle of Georgia Democrats that would take real exception to that statement.

  48. Ilmarinen, how are you going to prove those stats for deaths from abortion are truthfully reported? They don't always disclose that the complication she died of was actually caused by abortion.

  49. LLLreader sez: To anonymous who said there is just as much,or more, child abuse despite the many unwanted babies being aborted, I will say--no there isn't. To theoforos, who I hate disagreeing with, I will say--a mother isn't punished if she aborts her child, but she is punished if she kills her child later. The problem is--sometimes they DO kill their unwanted children later, or they beat them, or burn them, or torture them in other ways. How many children does this country have in foster care? Anyone know? These kids are taken away from parents who should never have had them in the first place. The number of women in this country who are drug addicted, mentally ill, or alchoholic is staggering. The situations I have seen some children in is unbelievably bad. If I believe a fetus has a soul, and that fetus is aborted, then that innocent soul will go directly to heaven. The big question is, when does the soul enter the body? Big disagreements on that point. I don't think abortion is such a great thing, and if a child can be carried to term, and adopted into a loving home that is certainly a better option. I wouldn't have wanted to have an abortion, and probably never would have--but I still believe that choice needs to be available.

  50. Many Trails Home11/10/2006 08:03:00 PM

    Have to finally add my 2 cents (or $25) here. I have worked in a professional capacity with pregnant women for decades. I will try not to be inflammatory but I have to say this to cvow and some of the others: You have a right to your opinion, of course, but you have no right to pass judgment or pass laws for any woman on this subject: you don't have the right genitalia. Furthermore, I suspect that you don't have the right life experiences, having been relatively sheltered all your lives. Compassion, discussion, yes, but no judgment.

    DO NOT use the term "murder" for embryos, fetuses, etc. This word is used strictly as a war tactic and that does not do any of us justice. It suggests that this subject can be looked at in black and white and it cannot. Let me point out some "grays:" do you believe in infant baptism? Who baptizes fetuses, let alone embryos that miscarry? No one that I know of. So if they were viable souls, off they go to gehenna. Rubbish.

    Even the Bible distinguishes between fetuses and infants, as others have pointed out. They are NOT equivalent. A fetus is a POTENTIAL person and as such is to be valued, but it is not a PERSON until it exists independently of its mother.

    I have personally met two women from Russia who had no access to contraception except for abortion. (I also know four women who had infibulation, which is female circumcision, but that is off the subject). One of the Russian women had had about 25 abortions, the other 35 (how they could even keep count is beyond me). They were both physically, and as far as I could tell, mentally healthy. And I don't think their souls had turned into demons either.

    On a completely different slant: Someone recently told me of a study that had correlated lack of contraception and/or abortion to crime rate. It took me a while to get it, but the connection is this: When women are barred from controlling their fertility, about 20 years later the crime rate increases. This is because the rate of unwanted, neglected, abused children rises and they bloat the population of criminals. So if you are in the mood to get mugged, force women to produce unwanted children, and then don't blame anyone but yourself when you participate in the consequences.

    Have you ever been involved in the foster care system? I would advise you to stop spouting pieties and get to work. See if you can save any of those horribly damaged children, or even if you can love any of the mildly disturbed ones. I have met one, an 8-year-old, who was demon-possessed if there is such a thing, and it was terrifying to behold.

    The results of this last election confirm my sense that women are finally waking up and refusing to be told how to think, and vote. I am touched by the compassion and understanding that I hear from the women posters. No man will ever know what it is like to be carrying a new life, to be a mother, or to know what it is like to lose one. It is almost as simple as that.

    Many blessings to you, my sisters and my brothers. MTH

  51. I never did say........Yeeeeeassss
    we got the senate too! Woohoo! Let the healing begin!

  52. Markus is going through a tough time, I haven't figured out how to post there yet as he isn't accepting anonymous posts.. do you need a blogger ID? Anyway.. thoughts and prayers are with you Markus.. May God bless, keep and comfort you and surround you with His love.

    God's Peace,

  53. LLLreader: I found a figure of 500,000 children currently in foster care in the US.

  54. I decided to check into the blog and noticed 55 comments on the election and then realized that most of the comments were about abortion. I personally don’t vote on this issue and am not particularly attached to either position but I am attached to some level of accuracy regarding the facts. And the fact is that abortion is not a particularly risk free solution to pregnancy and has been shown to have some long-term consequences of note. Reference the articles below. In addition, notable people assert that it is extremely rare if not unheard of (C Everett Koop) to abort to save the life of the mother. Furthermore, the statistics touted as “back alley” deaths due to unprofessional abortion have always been inflated. (Dr. Bernard Nathanson). We have abortion in this country and it is clear that it is not in the constitution (Lawrence Tribe) and that it is not necessary to save anyone and that it is used as a contraceptive of last resort and the fetal tissue is usually referred to as a baby by most people and the rest is simply emoting.

    “Pregnancy-Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994” Milka Gissler et al. Women more likely to die during abortion than pregnancy.

    “Assessing the Risk of Breast Cancer”, New England Journal of Medicine, Katrina Armstrong et al.
    Cancer rates seem to be higher with women post abortion.

    “Abortion and Subsequent Substance Abuse”, American Journal of Drug and Alcohol Abuse, David Reardon.
    Drug abuse seems to be higher in women post abortion.

    “Mental Health etc. “, British Medical Journal of Medicine, Christopher Morgan.
    Mental health problems seem to increase in women post abortion.

    As for the election… well now this is a dispiriting result but it is the result none-the-less. I congratulate the winners (Dems) and have some suggestions to my fellow party members in misery.

    But first let me make some micro observations. There are some silver linings in the clouds. First of all, I am heartened that finally my opponents have learned how to use the voting machines. It seems as though they worked this time out and the amount of chicanery has been reduced to insignificant levels if not eliminated. The army of Dem lawyers lined up to attack the polling system has evaporated into the ether and all the pre-election concern about voting irregularities has gone away. This is a good thing. The only exception to this seems to be the anti-affirmative action proposal in Michigan, which was passed. The leftist lawyers are attacking the validity of it being on the ballot. Now, this ballot proposition is certainly a threat to our democracy and must be stopped forthwith.

    Another potential good thing about the election is that it may reduce the amount of name calling with respect to our president. After six years of hearing about “hate”, “stupid” and “lying” from the Dems, CBS, NBC, CNN, ABC, NYT and LAT we may get a reprieve of sorts now that the Dems have to work with him on some level. This is only a hope and we shall see if this is to come to pass.

    Listening to all the good news from the Dems has given me another reason to hope. Governing is different than being in the minority so now that the committees in congress will pass to the leftists we will see if they use it to confront the large issues of the day or to attack the real evil on the planet… Mr. Bush. This will make for some interesting times.

  55. to Ijumped:

    Your comment is curious and I am wondering whether it is possible to have healing if your viewpoint is not in power. It reminds me of the usual leftist position that bipartisanship is not possible unless you agree with me. Explain, if you will, what healing looks like and if diversity includes tolerating, without rancor, your polical opponents.

  56. I'm speaking of economic healing. I'm speaking of the end of fear of more social programs being cut. I read an interesting piece in the last day or so that college aid is now expected to go up with the Dems in control. There is speculation that the dollar amount of Pell Grant awards will rise. Now this is truly a step in the right direction. Education is key for all who are capable of being educated. But we are not all capable of being educated. For those that can't be, dead end jobs with no health benefits are a very hard road to travel. They need help. And those of us that God gifted with abilities need to remember those that for some reason didn't come into this world with the ability to obtain a higher education. Their bodies need the same attention ours do. They also need dental care. They also need surgery, medications, and yes birth control even falls into this category. There was a time when I could barely scrape the 20 odd dollars together each month for the pill. But lo and behold! Once Viagra came along it was immediately a covered benefit and then my company quickly added the pill after a huge public outcry! That is my rant for today.

    On the abortion issue. I never said that I think abortion is great and should be used as a means of birth control. What I did state can be reread in my message of Wed Nov 08, 06:57:52 PM PST.
    Please don't read more into it then I stated. I think that abortion is devasting and I don't know how someone can come to terms with it. However, it is their choice. Not mine.

  57. Stylux,

    Demagogues exist on both sides of the false political dichotomy that exists in America (Democrats and Republicans). The Democrats use voter fraud, minimum wage, and the like to fire up their voters. Just like the Republicans use the troops, gay marriage, and the like to fire up their voters.

  58. Economic Healing????

    It's the economy stupid... there is that word again use famously by the last Dem president... everyone agrees that the Bush tax cuts have resulted in an economy that is best described as stellar. Low unempoyment and high stock market and record levels of government revenues are the order of the day. Please... you cannot make the claim that the economy is going to be improved by the Dems. If you believed Clinton when he made his claims in his bid for his second term then you must concede that the economy has been roaring. We are the envy of the western world when it comes to economic performance.

    As for education... Bush worked with Kennedy to pass a comprehensible education bill which was endorsed by both parties with vigor. I opposed this bill but it was passed with the leftist approval only to have old Ted on the senate floor six months later accusing Bush of "telling lie after lie after lie". So much for bipartisanship. It isn't my fault or the countries fault that someone doesn't get themselves educated. Anyone with the least bit of intitiative can get all the education that they desire or are willing to work for. How about a little concern for individual responsibility.

    Dental care???? Are you making the claim that I am responsible for my neighbors dentures? Here are some facts to ponder. No one in this country goes without healthcare. There are approximatley 45 million without health insurance (this by the way is about 15% better than the maximum number under Clinton) and of these... approximately a third are eligible for Medicaid or Medicare... another third without insurance are memebers of households regarded as wealthy according to Dem statistics (incomes above $50,000)... nearly a half of those in households over $ 75,000... another third are in the age group between 18 and 34 who choose not to have healthcare and use their money for other reasons. The whole healthcare issue is a fabrication used by the left to justify governmentalizing an otherwise successful private endeavor. How about requiring those who can participate in the healthcare insurance system but choose not to to buy insurance and thereby reducing the costs for everyone. Why is the government the only solution??

  59. To anonymous...

    No argument with your proposition.

    The difference is this. The leftists control the national thinking in the Democratic party in a way that the far right wing does not in the Republican party. The recently elected majority in the Democratic party includes members who ran on platforms of "right to life",low taxes", and "gun rights". The national leadership was silent on this phenomenon and we will see how prominent these new members become. In the last Dem convention they had no one visible who believed in "right to life". The Republicans are far more diverse in their thinking as a party than the Dems have been in may years. Lieberman is a case in point.

  60. Have you ever heard of a slow learner? Someone that would love to get a college education but does not have the mental capacity to do this? We don't all have an IQ of 159. Should we just run over them and forget that they too are human and we share our planet with them? Should we forget the disabled? Can you live on a SS benefit of $700 a month? Could you live on food stamps of about $175 a month? A admit I don't know the monthly amount now but I can guarantee it is pitiful. I think I need to take a few day off from this blog because my blood pressure is rising. Unless you have walked a mile in their shoes, please don't say how great it is for them and they ought to just get themselves an education. Not all are capable. I believe the Bible tells us to take care of the widows, orphans & unfit?!
    The economy is doing great? Not where I sit. Tell that to the thousands of people in Michigan that can't find jobs and can't sell their homes so they can leave the state to find better jobs!

  61. "I believe the Bible tells us to take care of the widows, orphans & unfit?!"

    Aye, aye, US -as in you and me; NOT the government!

  62. Oh, please.... the Bible doesn't say that the only way to take care of anyone is to get the Democratic party and the government involved. Ilmarinen... are you arguing that if someone does not make enough money according to your definition, that that is a sufficient reason to engage the government in taking from someone else.

  63. Ilmarinen...

    You are a proper thinking person on the left side of the aisle and I am asking for some help. On this very blog we have someone who is experiencing an emotional renaissance of sorts over the possibility of increased Pell Grants. Pell Grants!! We both agree that we live in possibly the greatest country ever, with low inflation, virtually no unemployment, high stock market, and a huge degree of upward mobility with an ocean of opportunity. Pell Grants!! Are you waiting in anticipation for such handouts? Is this the salvation for our grand kids that Free is talking about? Pell Grants!! How many people are waiting for the Fed to come and rescue them and their families with Pell Grants? You apparently have some concerns over Michigan’s economy and is this going to do it for Manistique? No wonder I missed it so badly. Do people vote on the basis of government grants? What has happened to the American spirit? I would really love some insight on this issue.

  64. Stylux, I think you were responding to ijumped, not me. I'm an economic moderate who thinks it's a shame that some kids grow up shut off from real opportunity or healthcare but also realizes the importance of not stifling entrepreneurs with too much taxes or regulations. I suspect the Republicans as a group are in the pocket of their ultra-rich contributors and far-right social conservatives and not really working to promote a healthy environment for small business owners. Some Democrats are business-friendly and some are in the pocket of the labor unions and protectionists.

    As far as the study you cited “Pregnancy-Associated Deaths in Finland 1987-1994,” it looks as if that study tells how many women died one year after a birth, abortion, or miscarriage. There appears to be a higher correlation between having an abortion and dying within a year than having a birth and dying within a year. Correlation does not equal causation, and I do not see any claim for causation within the study. Those having abortions are a different population than those having births.

    Even if abortion were made illegal, it would still continue, and even you will likely agree a woman is more likely to die if she's had an illegal abortion than if she's had a legal abortion. Whether a woman should have abortion is not my decision: it's hers. But I want to live in a society where the woman has a genuine choice, and that means safe and legal abortions are available as well as the support needed for a healthy birth and care after birth.

  65. I have been watching the discussion on abortion for several days, contemplating if, or what I should write. I grew up as a member of the FALC who became a single mother at 19 years old and had to make a decision about whether or not to have an abortion. As a Christian, I realized it was more important to be at peace with god, rather than the people around me and I chose life. Many of you who were raised in conservative families and churches should know of the judgment that goes with being an unwed mother. The thought of having an abortion ran through my head, because yes, it was the easy way out from that judgment and humiliation that I would face from the people in the church. Can you believe that was the biggest reason I considered an abortion? Most other women have abortions because they don’t want to or cannot take care of the child. You can see in my situation that I knew I wasn’t going to fit the perfect “mold” of what the church assumed a woman should take and that put a lot of stress on me, which doesn’t say much good about the support system of the church. It’s a bit ironic, because I could have had an abortion and everyone in that church would view me as a perfect Christian. Perhaps I should call that a double standard.

    Today, I am thankful I made the choice for life. I believe if I didn’t have faith and the strong family support that I got (I got it from my immediate family and friends, not the FALC), I would not have the beautiful 3 year old daughter that I have today. Abortion for women is more than a simple choice. If you choose to have an abortion, it is something you will have to live with for the rest of your life. I also believe it is something I would have had to face god with on judgment day. This is an issue that men shouldn’t even have the choice to vote on. I know so many guys that have fathered children and faced a lot less judgment and humiliation that I have. Men do not know how hard it is to be pregnant on your own, and to not know how you are going to financially support your child. I know how it feels – I was there. But, I wouldn’t change any decision that I have made in my life. It has made me who I am and it happened for a reason.

    As we all look for a solution to abortion, we have to realize that abortion will continue regardless of what laws we pass to stop it. We all have free will. Think about it…if you really want to kill someone or if you really want to steal something, you will find a way to do it. Same goes with spreading mean gossip about someone or not paying your taxes. Is a law written on a piece of paper going to stop you? What women in my situation and in similar circumstances need is love and encouragement. We, more than anyone need support and unconditional Christian love. That love was not there in the church I grew up in. There is a reason why many unwed women get pregnant in the first place. Many women, including myself at the time, didn’t value our bodies. Also, I never felt that I had the courage to talk about sexuality with other people from my church – the people who should have been giving me the advice I needed. Do I blame the church? No, not completely, because I was the one that did what I did, but I will not be raising my children in that church because I believe that a church should not be ignorant to those issues and the ministers are not approachable and/or skilled to give advice. The only thing they will tell you is “believe your sins forgiven”. How is that supposed to help me in learning how to raise my child on my own?
    Anyway, I have to get going so I will respond later if anyone comments about my posting. Those of you who know who I am, thank you for your support. Especially to my parents, for encouraging life. You have shown what a true christian should do - love unconditionally.
    I should also mention that I recently got married and am almost done with college. Sometimes we face challenges in life but they don't have to stop us from living out or dreams and aspirations.
    Take care & god bless
    Linnea LeBaron

  66. Ilmarinen..

    I realize that Ijumped and Anonymous have commented on these topics however I was asking you to comment on the notion of “cooling ones heels” waiting for salvation from the federal government. I couldn’t sleep last night thinking about how sad it was that someone could believe that their life would be turned around by who was in office in Washington. I grew up in DC when the Dem’s were in power for nearly forty years in both houses and lived to see the day when the Rep’s took control and never believed for one minute that my life was necessarily going to be any different on a day to day basis. Pell Grants!!! Is this a voting issue for the left?

    Incidentally, the Republicans average contribution is lower than the Dems. The top ten donors in the 2002 campaign gave 92% to the Democrats and the top ten individual donors gave 97% to the Democrats in 2002. In the current congress all of the richest (net worth over $200 million) are all Democrats and 8 of the top 11 richest are Democrats. (In part due to the silliness of McCain-Feingold). One is forced to wonder about pockets based on this data.

    As far as abortion goes, I did not cite these articles with any hope of convincing anyone to change their mind or to prove causation. I am willing to let individuals make up their own mind and I don’t vote on this issue in either case. But lets cut out the disingenuous arguments. The procedure is not benign, has potential long-term deleterious effects, and doesn’t save anyone’s life. The current literature is beginning to show this phenomenon. Serious thinkers on both legal sides believe Roe v Wade to be terrible law with very divisive consequences to the nation. One of the problems with the discussion is that the left has forced themselves into the corner of opposing so-called “late term” abortions when everyone agrees that the baby is viable and the procedure is offensive to the sensibilities of all sensitive people. They feel compelled to do this so as not to upset the very tenuous position of comparing a fetus to a fingernail. Let’s preserve the right to one’s body at all cost. It’s terribly obvious to everyone that a developing fetus at one day less than nine months is a baby pure and simple. Moderation has been sacrificed on the altar of ideological purity.

  67. I misspoke in the last posting... the sentence should read:

    One of the problems with the discussion is that the left has forced themselves into the corner of opposing bans on so-called “late term” abortions when everyone agrees that the baby is viable and the procedure is offensive to the sensibilities of all sensitive people.

    In the meantime Linnealebaron in her compelling story touches on one of the problems of our current social policy. That is that current beliefs let the men have a level of behavior without consequence not possible in the past.

  68. This discussion has certainly taken a lot of twists and turns, and at the very least it shows that people are interested and knowledgable and passionate about the topics!

    In no particular oder -- just responding to things randomly, Linnea, I admire your courage and compassion, and thank you for sharing a difficult story. You are certainly correct that it is a shame your support had to come from outside the church instead of from the inside -- where by definition it should have been most forthcoming.

    Stylux, I'm glad to see you're back. You're a lot better than I am at presenting logical arguments and I appreciate your insight, not to mention that for the most part I agree with what you say! Remember though, that you're trying to confuse a good story with facts, and that might not go down well.

    MTH...I was wondering when you'd weigh in, and I suspected you would come in right about where you did. You and I have beliefs that are 180 degrees apart as to when life begins, but at least that is a position that can be understood.

    You made a statement about living sheltered lives. I spent some time in Bombay, India, and if you haven't ever seen that level of poverty and want, then I could suggest that most people in this forum have been sheltered. I found that while I had been advised of the situation before going there -- from credible people and did not doubt them at all -- I was unable to comprehend until I saw it first hand.

    I do take exception to the statement to stop spouting pieties and get to work. Others have also made similar earlier statements that seem to imply that the only hope for anyone in need is the Democratic party, and that really frosts my backside. I suspect that my level of giving of time, talent, and treasure -- and that of many of my Republican friends -- is right up there in the top categories. Amazing, considering I'm a Neandertalian Troglodyte Republican, huh? Of course, I also support the National Rifle Association and Ducks Unlimited, both of whom do more good for the preservation of wildlife than Sarah Brady and her anti-gun ilk could ever hope to. (I just threw that in, in case anyone needs more fuel on this fire.)

    I agree that a male cannot understand the abortion issue in the same way that a woman does. Of course we can't, but that doesn't mean we do not understand the issue at all, and to say we don't is an insult.

    I've observed an interesting phenomenon post election. After the previous election, when W was re-elected, I had two friends -- both women incidently -- who were literally in tears and who were investigating leaving the US with their spouses -- one to Canada and one to Romania. I took the time to tell both of them that I did not want them to leave, because I certainly would not want to live in a homogeneous country where we didn't have differences of opinion, and a mutual respect for those positions. I told them the country needed them, and I needed them, and their opinions and thoughts were valuable. Funny, since this last election, I've not had anyone come up to me to commiserate and offer similar encouraging words. I've heard a lot of comments to the tone of "We'll show you now, you...."

  69. Stylux, your last post reminded me of something I wanted to add and it slipped my mind.

    I think that fathers of children should be held accountable for the care and well being of their children. I completely support any scheme or legislation that can make this happen -- and I don't mean unenforcable laws or laws with no teeth. I mean enforcable laws that have no loopholes for escape, and for which violation is met with severe consequences.

  70. A big indicater of the Democratic parties integrity will be if they decide to impeach. It would seem like the House would impeach though the Senate would probably not convict. The Democratic party probably will learn from the Republicans (Clinton-Lewinsky) and not impeach. When the Republicans tried to impeach Clinton it cost their party in the next elections.

    Also, I wonder what will happen to the Republican party now that bloggers such as Michael Rogers are outing many of the leaders in the Republican party as gay (Mark Foley, Ken Mehlman, Larry Craig). Could these outings result in a merger of parties?

  71. CVOW...

    Good to talk to you again after a couple of month's hiatus. I am glad you reminded me of the well known high schoolish reaction of moving out of the country when one doesn't like election results. Perhaps the flood of returnees will cause some alarm in the next board meeting of the Zero Population Growth group. Maybe a tax increase will be required to pay for police overtime providing crowd control at JFK for the mob greeting our prodigal son Johnny Depp upon his triumphal return. It is an additional curiosity that no one on the left has commented on the maturity level required for this reaction.

  72. Many Trails Home11/12/2006 07:41:00 PM

    cvow, I apologize if I insulted you. I wouldn't suggest you cannot understand the issue at all, but I still hold that you have no right to judge.
    As for your comment about abortion, stylux, it is in fact a very benign procedure, does not actually require any anesthesia at all, and very rarely leads to complications. Term pregnancy is far and away more risky. Not that I am arguing for it, but let's not manipulate facts to make our point. Abortion is never a positive choice but it is not your choice to make.
    And as for all this back and forth about "Dems" this and "Republicans" that, the whole thing makes me yawn. I don't support anybody wholeheartedly, including the Dems. Let's see them actually fix something. And I am shocked, stylux, that you would suggest The Economy (do your salaams, now) does not need some healing. Clearly you are not one of those who cannot buy a house, afford health insurance, or is locked into a job he hates because he cannot afford to make any moves. I know what state you live in; it's the same as mine. Where I live, it won't be long before there will be no nurses and teachers because they can't afford to live here. Get outta here! I moan every time I pay my own Blue Cross bill! The people REALLY in power, those controlling the corp purse strings, want us to keep running ever faster to keep feeding The Economy. Well I for one want off this escalating, unsustainable merry-go-round. But that wouldn't work for The Markets (salaam, once again), would it?
    Peace MTH

  73. MTH, Peace. I was being grumpy. You know me. I still hold my position, but I think that topic has been milked enough for the moment.

    However, your mention of paying for health insurance brings up another good point that's sort of related to all of this brouhaha we've got going. (As if we needed more fuel, but this is a good aspect of social care.)

    What's everyone's opinion about socialized medicine? I'll start.

    I lived in Olde Blighty (England) for several years, where I had a national health card, as I was working there. As we were there on a long term assignment for my company, they had to pay into the scheme, which then entitled us to go to doctors at little or no cost. I do not know how much the cost was, but rolled into all of the other UK tax system, it was hefty, as our tax rate was well over 50%. We never used the national service because we learned that if we called for an appointment, unless there was blood running on the floor, the first available appointment would be perhaps in 10 days to two weeks. However, when we then told them we had private insurance, suddenly they could see us that very afternoon. The reason, as it was explained to me, was that doctors were required to reserve a certain number of hours for national health care patients, and the rest they could use to see "private" patients. Of course the payment received from the national service was abysmal compared to what they could charge private insurance, so they reserved their best times for the private patients. When using the national service, you also had no choice of doctor, but had to see whoever was available at the moment.

    I do believe the care whether national insurance or private was reasonable, although there were lots of horror stories especially about hospital stays. Doctors did make house calls!

    So it's sort of a cradle to grave care system in the UK model (there are undoubtedly lots of variations around the globe). My family has a lot of medical folks in it -- a brother in law and nephew who are MDs, my son is a Chiropractor, and a bunch of others are everything from nurses to medical technologists to you name it. Not a single one of them would want to touch socialized medicine with a ten foot pole. I agree with them, from my experience with it. Anybody interested enough to comment about this hot potato?

  74. Stylux, I don't know about Pell grants and can't comment intelligently about them. Do I wait for the government to provide for me? No, but I'm in relatively privileged circumstances. Income inequality has been rising in the US, so perhaps those with economic worries are not reaping the benefits of the economy you're lauding.

    I've heard the German system of health care is good, not the systems in the UK, US, or Canada. Also, I've heard the US spends more (per capita?, as a percentage of GDP?) than other Western nations on healthcare.

  75. Many Trails Home11/12/2006 08:54:00 PM

    cvow, I'll take you on. Like so many other things in this country right now, our system works well for those will lots of dinero. Almost everything about it is market driven (another salaam to The Market). We will see change soon because the scales are tipping toward the have-nots. I personally cannot envision a viable solution within our current Profit-Driven Culture. (I'll be surprised if this doesn't get stylus going).
    But I know I'm right, guys. Sorry. The middle class is disappearing, which is going to create a huge threat to your precious market culture, whether you like it or not, and all the arguing and whining in the world isn't going to save it, as long as we have a democracy and those who are economically marginalized can still vote. You may not like what they vote for, however, which is to take some from you for themselves. This I am personally adamant against, but it's what you get when The Market insists that everyone should want a lot of everything, and the structures we create REQUIRE huge inputs of cash to keep the electricity flowing, the heat on, our cars in gas for the long commute, a roof over our heads (which the bank owns anyway, and there we go around that merry-go-round) to say nothing of $800 per month for one person for medical insurance, with a $4500 deductible, a person who has never made a claim. And I didn't even mention all the discretionairies that the market hypes.

    Are we all asleep? Am I the only one who thinks this is outrageous, unsustainable, unjust, and stupid? Are we incapable of solutions? Are we worshipping the Market Gods? (I can answer that). What is the matter with us? It's enough to drive one to drink - where's the Merlot? (I may just learn to make it myself!) MTH

  76. MTH… My point about abortion is that it is not as benign as we are led to believe and this is not my research but others that I am citing. What is the problem with having this info in the mix?? Incidentally, I pay the Blue Cross bill for four separate families and the tab is around 350 per month with a $3,500 to $5,000 deductible. This isn’t particularly inexpensive but it is considerably below the figures cited. As for the vaunted national system, all the anecdotal stories that I hear are similar to CVOW’s and that includes Germany specifically. The costs for national systems are controlled by “ration by delay in scheduling” and I don’t see any way around this.

    I am a believer in the free market system and having said that support governmental curbs to assure its proper functioning. This belief is grounded on the observation and experience that it is the best in assuring the most to the most. It is unfair and useless to compare it to an ideal and totally reasonable and useful to compare it to another system which attempts to deliver. The problem with comparing our system to the socialism in Europe is that those societies as structured are not sustainable and this is becoming more and more apparent. I appreciate your frustration with every day life as we all deal with this in our normal routines but to expect politicians to rescue us from tedium is to expect an illusion. They cannot deliver. Now that is something to bow down to. Switch to Pinot... never anything routine there.

  77. Cvow's experience from the UK is pretty similar to my experience from Finland. The national healthcare system is very inefficient and unreliable. As long as I have money to go to a private clinic I wouldn't consider using the services of the public healthcare. The Finnish word for a public healthcare service clinic is 'terveyskeskus', but many people jokingly use the word 'arvauskeskus' (=guessing center) instead. However, I noticed one difference compared to the UK. Cvow said the doctors must assign a certain number of hours to the national healthcare patients, but can use the rest of their time for private patients. Well, that's pretty much what many doctors do here, too, but the doctors that have both public healthcare patients and private patients typically work at two (or more) clinics: a public clinic and a private clinic. However, some doctors practice only at a private clinic and some doctors only at a public clinic. It doesn't take much time to guess that the good doctors tend to work at the private clinics and the more clumsy ones at the public clinics. There's also a huge difference in attitude, at the public clinics you are treated as a nuisance, while the private clinics treat you as a valued customer.

    In Norway, they recently changed the healthcare system and practically abolished the private healthcare sector. As far as I understand, every doctor is now assigned a certain number of (named) patients, no matter if (s)he's got his/her own reception or works at a public clinic, and it's his/her job to take care of those patients and no-one else, i.e. they practically forced the private practitioners into the public system. I've heard both positive and negative comments on the new system. I don't have any experience myself, but I don't think I'd like that kind of a system at all. No doubt it makes people more equal, but what will the long-term effects be? Will the inefficiency and low standards of the public healthcare gradually take over?


    As for the comments hinting that men shouldn't have an opinion about abortion, I don't think such comments can be taken seriously until we see the first child that has been produced without a man (apart from Christ of course). Of course, women have a much closer relationship to the matter, and men cannot fully understand how women feel about it, but it's still question about men's children too. Honestly, I'm afraid I'd probably kill the woman who dared kill my child...

  78. Are you all crazy or whats the deal in the place?

  79. wow, sorry so long!!

  80. Fatherless children?


  81. Well, I'm back from a weekend getaway with some wise and wonderful ex-OALCers, and that may explain my reluctance to rejoin this meandering debate. I want to hold on to the peace a bit longer.

    But I want to thank you, Linnea, for sharing your story. You are fortunate to have the support you need. I knew an OALC woman who did not have that support. Married at 15, she had a baby every year for several years, was in a very unhappy marriage, and did not want more children. But she was advised by the preachers to submit to her husband (who did) and whose libido wasn't in the least diminished by sleep deprivation, breastfeeding and dirty diapers.

    This still riles me. If God is just, She certainly holds tbose jerks accountable for their arrogance.

    Oh by the way, Stylux, there does seem to be a problem with voting machines in Kathleen Harris's old county. Funny, that.

  82. Something that continues to rile me is the treatment that the young veterans received when they returned home from Viet Nam war. To be drafted into an unpopular war and to be horribly mistreated on their return.. there's a part of me that wishes for those abusers to be held accountable! And no matter what happens in the next few months and years in Iraq, please let us determine never to treat our soldiers that way again. I can't say that often enough.

  83. Norah…

    I am glad you raised this issue and I agree with your sentiment entirely. I was in college for part of the time of the Vietnam War and attended many classes with tear gas wafting through the campus. It is noteworthy that my tolerant brethren on the left were quite intolerant of anyone who decided to listen to a lecture instead of stoning the ROTC building. I had friends in the military, who carry a psychological scar from having to witness protesters spitting on their comrades upon their return. This experience has shaped some of my current thinking and causes me to distrust the “compassionate and tolerant” radical left. Many among them are abusive to the point of violence to those with whom they disagree and I have witnessed this first hand. For anyone interested I can provide additional details.

    Free… Hey, I am glad you logged in and it’s always good to debate you. Voting irregularities in Florida??? Not possible. SHUT UP… (Forgive me Free, Rosie interrupted me again… easy Rosie, that’s not needed anymore, your side won the election.)

  84. Sorry to get off subject, just found an interesting website www.batteredsheep.com if anyone is interested. Click on articles and you can find out about unhealthy and healthy churches. And about legalism, authoritarianism, and spiritual abuse.

  85. Rosie the Riveter? Watcha talkin' bout, Stylux? Maybe my ignorance of pop culture is showing?

    As for the mistreatment of vets, indeed it was and is shameful. And extreme, and not to be confused with "liberals" in general. No more than the marketing of war (don't get me started) should be confused with conservates.

    That would be like blaming gays or evangelicals for Haggard. Anyone wanna to dissect THAT debacle?

  86. Free… Forgive me for using such a quiet advocate for the “radical” left as Rosie O’Donnel. I believe that I made it clear that I was speaking of the Far left and did not use liberals for attribution. I am still waiting for the day when the left can take responsibility for their behavior without dragging into LIE AFTER LIE AFTER LIE… (How did Kennedy get in here, I must have left the door open. Ted, easy we are on to bipartisanship now, remember… that’s no longer needed in civilized debate. No problem, your forgiven) the discussion some arcane reference that shifts the topic or equalizes the blame. The fact is, and I witnessed it, that a very high number of radical protesters in the Vietnam era behaved terribly and no amount of moral equalizing gets them off the hook.

  87. Stylux, shifting the topic is the game here, so don't get huffy. Regarding your current peeve, just how can "the left" (you do mean the radical left, I'm sure) "take responsibility" for the mistreatment of Vietnam vets?

    What would suffice? The public humiliation of some peaceniks? Perhaps Ben & Jerry could apologize to Donald Rumsfeld, burn their tie-dye and give all their Peace Pop profits to say, Halliburton.

    While moral equations do not let anyone "off the hook," they provide valuable perspective. I think that my cousin, who blew others to bits and then was blown to bits himself, would have preferred being spit on, or cursed, any day of the week.

    What did he die for? Lies, lies, indeed! When will Rumsfeld be writing his McNamara tell-all?

    So here's a question for you: , if it is proved that Bush lied about the rationale for invading Iraq, would you support his impeachment? Why or why not?

  88. Free…

    Now this is more like the old Free and do I detect a little huffiness going on here or what?

    And yes you could start with Ben and Jerry… members of the revered sanctimonious set… and burning their sacred tie dye shirts would be a good start. I am going to recommend you to the Cato Institute. Moral equations are just that… moral equations. And as for Bush lying THESE GUYS ARE THE BIGGEST LIARS GOING (I am so sorry Free, the door was left open again and… John, please, I am talking and Rumsfeld already left. You should be OK now.) yes, if it is proven that he lied in the usually accepted definition, I would be quite upset and would support sanctioning and possibly impeachment. He is an eminently decent man who has done his best for his country and is not perfect. I perfectly understand disagreement but vilification is beyond the pale.

  89. My goodness Stylux, I have missed ye so!

    So let's throw in another twist to the Viet Nam thing. It's been great fun for the left to vilify George's National Guard service. (This at the same time as professing Kerry was or was not in Cambodia at Christmas or maybe not but was he a river rat or was he a reporter, but I digress.)

    I took personal insult to those folks who sneered at the National Guard. I served my country in the National Guard for 12 years and didn't know I was doing anything shameful. I was lucky and my unit did not get sent to Viet Nam. We did do a lot of community service stuff and helped police some of the lefty students who thought tearing up small towns was an appropriate sort of protest, but no shots fired in anger or otherwise. What I couldn't figure out was why a group of people, most of whom had never been anywhere close to serving themselves in any way thought it would be right to sneer at the Guard. I think they may have been some of the same folks who spit on the "baby killers" -- or who ran to Canada instead of doing anything.

  90. Surely there are a few hectares between an "eminently decent" GWB and his vilification. But I'm glad to know that you consider presidential deception impeachable, even when it concerns preemptive war, not Oval Office blowjobs. What's the moral algebra on that one?! (Ok, I'll stop yanking your chain!)

  91. "would have preferred being spit on, or cursed, any day of the week."

    That's cold, Free!! No compassion? But the point remains, it is not the fault of the troops.. discuss policy and that's fine.. but methinks your consciousness has not been raised as to the effects on the survivors of war. If you ever want to hear about it, just ask.. I live with it every day, 36 years later..

  92. Stylux,

    it's hard to imagine now, isn't it? I was on campus then too.. sit-ins, Kent State, riots, protesters.

    If any of the younger readers, or even us older peeps, are interested in learning more about the effects of war and other traumatic events and PTSD, books by Patience Mason are a good place to start..

    Let's learn from the past, and be more compassionate to our sons and daughters this time. Knowledge is power.

  93. Free...

    As for the algebra, I did not support impeachment for lying to the grand jury on the rationale that impeachment is as much a political act as a legal one. This by the way is a consequence of the Congress, a legislative body, being put in charge of such affairs. I realize that not all my fellow Republicans agreed with this judgment and we suffered the political consequences of such a decision.(Justifying blow jobs by interns in the workplace by the party of women is certainly one of those ironies, isn't it?) Now as I watch the eager left salivating over the opportunity to "investigate" and ponder the consequences of the likes of Waxman staring down his corralled witnesses, I have some hope for the future.

    Now, Free, if ceasing the yanking means that you disappear then don't think of it.

    CVOW... It appears that we were both in the military in roughly era and we could share some stories. In boot camp we played a lot of bridge and argued about whether going to Canada would be a better option.

  94. Has anyone else noticed how fast we are approaching a matriarchy?

  95. Hi Anon,

    are you the same Anon who posted earlier? Do you have a point you are trying to make in your quiet way :-) ?. No, I haven't noticed that we are approaching a matriarchy..is that good or bad in your view.. what are your thoughts about it... care to share?

  96. Norah, perhaps you misunderstood my point. The lasting effect of Vietnam on survivors is indeed familiar (I am not that young). Those who did not pay with their lives are still paying with their lives, in myriad ways. And the ripple effects continue for generations.

    But let us not be deluded. While some of the protestors acted out of malice or cowardice, many many more acted out of patriotism and compassion, and eventually ended that senseless war. (If you want some history on mothers for peace, let me know.)

    BTW, I also enjoy Mothering magazine (quite progressive, Norah!). It helped me immensely when I was guiding new parent groups.

    Cvow, I don't recall any sneering about the Guard itself. It was the fact that Daddy got him into it, and that he didn't show up for duty. Maybe we get our op-eds from different papers?!

    I am having dinner next Saturday with an Airforce intel officer (an old college pal). Years ago over lobster, he told me we could trust Washington. Now's he eating crow, so to speak. Like many of us, he feels misled.

  97. Anon...

    Are we approaching a matriarchy?? This is a very profound question about which there could be much discussion. Additional questions could be: If we are will the society be better, worse or the same? If true, can our boys be raised into manhood sucessfully? What innate characteristic does each gender have to curb in order to be civilized? Do we have gender based characteristics to begin with and if we do what are they? Are there any differences between matriarchal and patriarchal societies? How many cats does it take to make a happy home? Do people who own thirty cats have some intrinsic value that is better than people who own three dogs or one rabbit? What is the sense of humor quotient on this blog and how does it manifest itself? I will add to my questions a bit of factual info that may be germane... I am male, come from a large family, have washed my own clothes all my life, have ironed, sewn, cooked, washed dishes since the age of 6, changed babies, babysat, fed babies, nurtured babies but have never given birth, had my nails done or cashed in a gift certificate for a facial.

  98. Yeah Stylux, I was at Fort Leonard Wood when Kent State happened. I remember when one of our just back from Nam DIs fell asleep on a cot and somebody poked him. He threw the kid over the next bunk before he even woke up. In spite of the fact we all knew it was an unpopular war, I never heard one single comment from any soldier that we shouldn't be there.

    It was an interesting time. It was a time of intense patriotism and a time of intense "dispatriotism". (I know, I know, it's another of my invented words.)

    BTW, while Clinton's actions in the Oval Office disgusted me -- and confirmed he was a liar and an idiot -- what I really despised about the guy was that he stood on a street corner in England in those years denouncing what his government was doing. I'd call that treason, but I suspect some of the lefties here would take umbrage. Oh what the heck, it was treason.

    ...and when you shoot at W for having Daddy's help or his poor Guard attendance, remember that Bill coasted through on a deferment. You might not realize this, but W did not learn how to fly those jets just going to weekend drill -- he had to put in some serious active duty time to get to that point.

    WooHoo! 100 posts in this topic!

  99. Free, re: Mothering magazine - I guess you could say I like the cafeteria plan in the area of ideas :-)..

    about the VN war.. the soldiers were in the impossible position of fighting with no end in sight, and yet not being allowed to win. Yes, many lies were told.. and my husband and I have agreed we would have been with the anti-war people had we known all that came out later.. but maybe it's the mass hysteria that provoked individuals to lash out at the ones in the middle of it all, the ones who had no choice. That's what we have before us once again - either win, or pull out. One way or the other. My 2 cents!

  100. There's this Glenn Beck fellow on CNN Headline news.. he's going to have a one-hour special tonight on the extemist agenda of the Islamist terrorists. He says it's video that is shown on television in Islamic countries, but which we haven't seen in the West. Now, I know it's sweeps month and it might be a lot of hype.. but might be worth checking out.. Might put the issue of fighting terror in a new light - ?

  101. One more question to be pondered on the matriarchal issue and one on the Islamist issue.

    Is pacifism necessarily a noble philosophy?

    When one examines the societies that are predominantly Islamist one notices the following characteristics in general:

    Women have very few rights.
    Women are punished severely for their sexual crimes.
    Gays are hated and punished mostly by death.
    They are monolithic with respect to religion... Christians and Jews cannot pray.
    They have an agenda to implement Sharia law everywhere.
    Intolerance of differences is widespread.
    What can be described as western intellectual and social culture is feared and hated and banned.

    Given the fervor of the radicals and the inaction of the moderate Muslims is this ideology worth fighting or will it go away?

  102. Stylux, when you were asking me about my economic views, I didn't have this link, but I enjoyed this article: Is a little economics a dangerous thing?

  103. On matriarchy,

    I just thought of that because, since 1992 (the year women really began to enter government), only one female senator that has been elected into office has subsequently been voted out of office. Amazing, Huh?

    Also, look at what happened with Hillary Clinton this year. Joe Lieberman and her were both in similar situations entering their primaries. Both had voted for the war and try to be centrists. Lieberman lost his primary to an anti-war Ned Lamont 48% to 52%. Clinton won her primary to an anti-war Jonathan Tasini 83% to 17%. Surely woman are political forces to be reckoned with.

  104. Ilamarinen…

    Thanks for the reference that I downloaded and found quite interesting. I am left with the feeling that results matter and that is where the sticking points lie. As I read it I thought about what I heard sometime back:

    A notable once said that “egalite, liberte and fraternite” the national goals of the French since their revolution are impossible. We are all born unequal and if you compel equality we are clearly not free and so you have a conflict between the first two making the last one fraternity impossible. Examining France at this point makes it quite clear that they are going nowhere by inculcating their youth with this idealistic anti-natural nonsense.

    Anon... Interesting perspective and seems to corroborate data that shows the electorate feels that the Dems don't have a plan but there is a greater chance of getting a workable one if they are placed into office. More to learn in the future.

    By the way... I am very disappointed in Fox TV (same corporate parent as Fox News but different division) running this unseemly interview ith OJ.

  105. Can you imagine any "innocent" man writing about how he would really kill his wife if it was him?

  106. Re;Haggard

    My take on it is that he could not
    accept that he was gay or at least
    bisexual so tried hard to work
    against it , but had occasional

    It falls in the category of
    "protesting too much" although
    somewhat extreme.

    My attitude is "he who is without
    sin cast the first stone."

    Is the front you present to the
    world 100% genuine?

    I like the attitude of the wife
    who said in essence "now I can
    relax and quit trying to be the
    perfect wife".

  107. On OJ: He was guilty but the case against him was HORRIBLY managed. I wasn't surprised when he was found not guilty, back in the day.

    On being in the closet: it makes some real perverts. Living a lie in that way seems to twist one's psyche.

  108. Re: Fri Nov 10, 10:07:54 AM PST
    Thus far I have checked 4 different versions and have yet to find one that states Exodus 21:22-25 that way. If Brian Elroy McKinley's point is really valid, I should think it would be a little easier to find. All 4 that I found speak of premature birth; obviously further injury after premature birth would include death of the baby.
    Premature birth and miscarriage are not the same thing. And anyone who claims that babies who were born prematurely without modern medical care always died, is just ignorant.

    And speaking of putting the "life for life" part in context. It looks to me that, "life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise." speaks of BOTH mother and baby.