"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: FALC Issues

Monday, November 14, 2005

FALC Issues

". . . it might be helpful if Free2bme chose to create a post on the FALC issue . . . in the hope of helping FALCers as they search for healthy faith . . . iIt appears to me that the FALC is splitting under the weight of many pathologies that we have already discussed as being all too common in Laestadian history--exclusivism, Groupianity as opposed to Christianity, and personal egos/grudges. I pray this time of turmoil within the FALC leads to the shedding of those Laestadian pathologies and a resurgence of healthy faith."

You ask, you get! Please use this thread to discuss FALC issues. Click on the title above to join the Yahoo group and to get to the letter by Bob Pieti.

90 comments:

  1. Thank you for adding this new discussion board. Just out of curiosity, how many current or former FALC'ers are out there reading this? Has anyone else read the letter from Bob yet?

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  2. The greatest of these is LOVE11/14/2005 08:35:00 PM

    If you don't want to join the Yahoo group, you can view Mr. Pieti's memo here.

    It's only a Geocities website, so I apologize if it gives an error page, as the free pages do when they get too much traffic.

    Personally, I can relate how the issue of exclusivism has bothered me since childhood. It horrifies me to think that only a few thousand souls could rejoice in heaven while billions languish in hell. The only thing to recommend the doctrine of exclusivism is that it may help a church retain its members. The ALC (Federation), which has been one of the least exclusive of all the Laestadian splits, has also been one of the branches in sharpest decline in membership. Today, the ALC is less than half the size it was in the 1940s. How should churches deal with the issue of exclusivism?

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  3. LLLreader: Bob strikes me as a sincere man who wants to do what's right. What Peter has done is crossed the line--men who have the kind of power that the leaders of the Laestadian churches have been given--sometimes just go too far. The history of the Laestadian movement shows this happening time and again. This is the danger of putting the emphasis and energy into following men, instead of God.

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  4. Look at what jealousy and struggle for power does: It splits families, causes confusion, and creates heartache. Putting myself in their position, I can't imagine how much it would hurt to have someone spread lies about me, turn people against me, and ruin my reputation. Humiliating, to say the least. It is good that these people are standing up against being treated that way. I know I would!

    I should also add: It sounds like Bob is backing everything up with the bible, which is good to see. From what I understand the problems in the FALC are far from over. Upper Michigan has not been too affected yet, but that area has the largest number of FALC members. This is partly due to the fact that they have been misinformed, not informed, or ignorant to the problems. This letter from Bob could create a lot of problems in the UP, depending on who gets a copy of that letter and what Pete does to repute it.

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  5. How do churchs deal with ex-
    clusion which leads to shunning,
    family splits etc.

    Easy, have the preachers call it
    sin. There are many Bible
    passages to back them up such
    as " Love Thy Neigbor " etc.

    Which leads to quoting the Bible
    to back up anything and every-
    thing you want to believe.

    It is a cat chasing its tail.

    There are 1000's if not more of
    splits of all beliefs out there
    that do exactly that and only
    they are right .

    Amazing isn't it !

    Parable:
    Time: Judgement Day
    Place:Interrogation Room at
    Pearly Gates
    Interrogater:I see by your record
    that you believed in
    exclusivity which
    led to shunning,
    family splits etc.
    which we consider a
    sin here.
    Applicant: It's what I was told
    to believe by the
    preacher!
    Interrogater We gave you a brain,
    why didn't you use
    it ?
    I will recommend
    that you be given
    probation seeing
    you had no control
    over where you were
    born and raised.

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  6. You're right on! But, the FALC teaches people NOT to study the bible...so how do we get around that to open their eyes?

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  7. If it's true that there's less people now (than in the 40's)in the ALC is probably because most of those people are dead and the younger generation knows that you don't need to have a dozen or more kids to be saved.

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  8. Maybe since some members in the ALC tend to not be as exclusive, others dare to leave, because they don't fear the shunning.

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  9. I was reading an article out of "The Voice of Zion" (the newspaper for the LLC). It was talking about a class they held that taught about the Herisy in 1973(with the FALC,). It had some very sad stories in it and it told about the relatoinship of best friends being destroyed over the split. The 1973 split must have been a very difficult time. It is too bad that the FALC is going through it agian.

    At the end of article it reads "Memories of the herisy were spoken of and discussed. Many expressed thankfuness that God had guided and protcted their parents though the heresy. It was noted that all, including the heresy, is God's doing- it was his way to cleanse his flock."

    Herisies are the work of men, not God.

    1 Chorinthians chapter 3 talks alot about unity. It is a good read. Its too long to post on here. but if you want to know what the bible said about unity and divisions, take the time to read that chapter. In fact 1 chorinthians is about Unity in general. hmmm Now im going to have to finish reading that book.

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  10. I'm an ex 1st ap. Some, not all, teach not to read the Bible. Some implore people to read daily. Unfortunately the more outspoken ones (loudest?) seem to be the most ignorant. My heart goes out to those that just want to believe in Jesus and are stuck in the family culture. Please pray for them.

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  11. Yes, that's true the AP's don't shun their family or friends if they leave the church. My daughter left and I know she's where she needs to be and I'm happy for her. I won't put my God in a box and no one else should either.

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  12. I feel the worst for the children. They are being raised amidst so much confusion. We don't have to let it continue this way.

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  13. My response to this quote:

    "At the end of article it reads "Memories of the herisy were spoken of and discussed. Many expressed thankfuness that God had guided and protcted their parents though the heresy. It was noted that all, including the heresy, is God's doing- it was his way to cleanse his flock."

    Even though I do not attend the FALC anymore, I would never be able to use the word heresy for those people still attending. I do not believe that every single person currently going to the FALC believes what is being preached, nor do I believe that about the LLC. The only difference between the LLC(SRK) and FALC is that the people worship in different buildings. They both have the same doctrine of hate towards the other and towards all people of different churches. Grace Apostles does not share in that doctrine and they are not quick to call people heretics. As far as I'm concerned, thats judgement and what does it prove? Its amazing that something good came out of the FALC when you look at how strange and unbiblical the doctrine is.

    My response to the LLC about "cleansing the flock": it sounds like they're proud about getting rid of people from their church.

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  14. great site!!! still reading through the archives. I left the falc. althugh I still have some family there. I find to similarities between the oalc and the falc amazing. Both shun and are exclusive.
    also I am still reading through Bob's letter. So far it is really good! however, I do have a couple small issues.
    First, I feel that Bob did not really answer his own question on # 2 "Why reconciliation is needed". There are many, many people who have left the falc and are currently going to other churches. These people are very happy in their walk with the Lord. Yes reconcilation would be good, but it is not going to bring back all those who left and found a new church.
    The other issue is small, but it has to do with the use of pronouns. In some places in the letter, he (Bob) uses pronouns and it is hard to know who "they" are.

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  15. The Greatest of these is LOVE11/20/2005 07:55:00 AM

    A question for those of you who have left unhealthy churches: do you feel a duty to help those still in the church to leave? When I left the church I grew up in, I did not feel much duty to help those still in that church leave, because I knew that the people in that church were all die-hards. Further, we were so far apart in belief structures that most of the people in that church could not even understand where I was coming from when we discussed things. They couldn't even understand my questions, much less discuss them. They didn't want my help, and I didn't give it because I didn't think most of them were able to be helped.

    On the other hand, I do feel a duty toward the young people who have left that church. I've talked with them and tried to be a friend to them, because I know how hard it is to leave and the dangers young people are exposed to upon leaving an oppressive church and suddenly having freedom.

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  16. So much confusion, so little time. We can see the result of people not listening when they are in church and not asking questions of others when they visit with others of their faith. It splits families apart and creates anger and confusion. Being a former FALC member, I have tried discussing faith with people in that church. Anyone else notice how the conversation always turns into an awkward situation because they try to change the topic (or pretend they dont know what you are talking about)? Also, if you are wondering, no, I do not approach them with anger and judgement.

    Nobody in that church wants to discuss things. I am extremely worried for some of them. What are they afraid of? I just want to know why those people won't talk. The FALC has definately gotten a lot weirder in the last few years. They didn't used to be this closed off to everyone else; Or maybe I just wasn't aware of it. Needless to say, this church is going in the direction of a cult and those people need help. Anything we can do for those people besides pray for them?

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  17. A FALCer told me that he does not understand what a meeting in Texas and a dispute between two ministers has to do with a split in the Cokato FALC.
    any thoughts on his comment?

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  18. People in the FALC should know what really divided the church. For those of you who think the problems are only in Cokato, you are wrong. I know this because most people in the UP, where the most FALC members are located, are not even aware of what happened in Cokato. This split was not just about "issues". It was also about doctrine. The meetings is Texas are only a part of what LED UP TO the split. Bob added them to the article so people could know the whole story. How can you make an informed decision about continuing to go to that church without knowing the whole story?

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  19. what is the doctrine of the FALC? I went to the FALC for many years, and am not sure what it is.
    Do you think we will get ever get the "whole" story? I have never heard Peter's side for the story on the events that have taken place.

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  20. Did you read the article by Bob Pieti? That should give you a pretty good idea what the FALC doctrine is. "Worldly churches preach Christ, we preach the forgivness of sins"

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  21. So is the doctrine of the "forgiveness of sins" something that has has changed within the FALC? Or has it always been? Or has there been a difference between people within the FALC prior to this last split, with these people never discussing doctrine?

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  22. I think that doctrine has always been there. If you do your history on the apostolic churches, you can see that focus on absolution is a common trait of Laestadians. In the last few years, that doctrine has gotten stronger, and especially since the last split, all they talk about is the forgiveness of sins. Its gotten to the point where they basically WORSHIP the forgiveness of sins as god and they have pushed everything else out. They are so sure about their doctrine that they will do anything to protect it. Therefore, you can see why holding those traditions in the FALC are so important. They are protecting the heritage of their group. Many of those traditions are contradictory to the bible's teachings. I think their have always been people who knew things were wrong with the doctrine all along but wanted to stay & be a part of the group, maintain the friendships, etc. In the case of Grace Apostles, it looks like the people who started opening the bibles to understand their faith were "kicked out". They were a threat to the unbiblical traditions, which act like a security blanket for those people.

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  23. Nice Anon 11:58. Unless you're PP, you just committed plagiarism.

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  24. Because the person didnt refer to PP? Who cares?

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  25. Sorry about not putting parentheses around that, but then again, I only took part of his idea and changed some of the wording. I do agree with the point he made, though and believe thats is the reason the FALC is having so many problems right now.

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  26. In reference to the doctrine of F.A.L.C. You can't have forgiveness of sins without Christ. First comes Christ, then through His death on the cross, comes the forgiveness of sins. Thus, a church is not worldly for preaching Christ, but quite the contrary, has the foundation of being a Christian. It is difficult to express this to people attending F.A.L.C. because, yes I dare say it, not all of them have the Holy Spirit, through which understanding of the Bible comes. To them it (The Bible) is foolishness (so why study it). They do not understand that they are not saved because they ATTEND First Apostolic Lutheran Church. If they are saved, it is because they have come to an acceptance that Christ died for them (and in this act, our sins are forgiven) Even if you just focus on the forgiveness of sins, it should be reflected in how you live and act, which it is not for the F.A.L.Church. Forget reconciliation between F.A.L.C and Grace Lutheran, lets focus on reconciliation between us and Christ!!! and getting them to understand that!! First Christ, everything else will follow.

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  27. Looks like Bob has an updated version of that letter originally posted on this site. Its on the yahoo groups site.

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  28. Many Trails Home12/12/2005 05:28:00 PM

    The post by Anonymous 5:39 rumbled around in my brain all weekend. I am usually pretty good at picking up "false gods" but, frankly, this one escaped me. Kudos, I say. Exactly right. I think the only "god" that is not a false god is love itself. How many times is this repeated ("love the Lord your God" etc), and how many times relegated to the back seat, while we argue about stupid, inconsequential stuff? I wonder if our guardian angels don't shake their "heads" in despair.
    Many blessings. Many Trails Home (ex-OALC)

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  29. Has something like this ever happened in the OALC? I havn't heard of any splits in the OALC since they split around the year 1900.

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  30. Finally, someone who feels the same frustrations as I do (with the FALC)! Thanks for writing!

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  31. Nicely done Anonymous in Texas!!!
    You certainly echo the feelings of many people who have left the FALC. Questions: You stated, "Do you really believe that either church is all that different? Are you not trying to edge each other out to be "right" and therefore the other "wrong"? ".
    When you say "either church" are you referring to Grace and FALC? Frankly, I am not seeing a lot of difference between Grace and FALC.
    Also, I assume that you attend church somewhere in Texas. Are you finding love from the pulpit and pews? Does mean people reside in all churches. Assuming that you attend a church regularly, how is it different then the FALC.

    Struggling To Find My Way

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  32. To Struggling to find your way.
    In answer to your questions on the difference between both churches, I was indeed referring to the Grace and FALC. I have visited a few different churches here in Texas and found that the Unity Church comes the closest to my heart. They teach the positive teachings of Christ and honor and respect all religions, faiths, and people. We believe that all paths lead to God and that God is loving to all of his creation. The best advise I can give to anybody is start by asking God and/or Jesus, "Who am I"? "Why am I here"? "How can I serve?" and be patient enough with yourself and the right and perfect answer will come. As far as "angry" people in the pulpit and in the pews, I find very little negative energy. When I was struggling to find my way I found that when I was angry, I attracted angry people and situations around me. My life became immensely more loving and accepting when the answers I have been looking for came to me in sometimes small and snychronistic ways. You can be nothing less than a perfect expression of God. Always and forever!
    Found in Texas

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  33. Found in Texas
    What is the foundation of your faith? How can you say that "all paths lead to God"? "Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (john 4:6). I see one path to Heaven which is found in Jesus.

    Struggling To Find My Way

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  34. From my point of view only, it makes perfect sense to you as a Christian that Jesus is the way.
    However, say you were born in a different religion and never even heard of Jesus let alone Christianity, you would naturally follow the doctrine of your parents and community. For Christians to say they are "right" and all other humans on the planet are "wrong" is a sign of arrogance and egocentric point of view. How can you ask a person that grew up different than you perhaps in a culture in China to embrace your way of thinking? You do not embrace there way of "believing" now do you? They can also beleive that their path is the way and back it up with "scripture". Jesus was pointing to his "experience" and not the path of a chosen select few of white folks. If you look even at the Dead Sea Scrolls, the language and condition of it, it begs a person to ask bigger questions of all that is said to be the "direct" words of Jesus.
    Jesus's language is the tranlation of the now defunct Aramaic language. People that have studied this language for decades have found over 100,000 errors in translation. Not to disprove his teachings, but to enhance and clarify his love for all humanity.
    I am not asking you to follow or believe me, what I am asking you to do is research and come to your own conclusions about Jesus and God. Ask Jesus now for guidance and see what comes. Only you will know that the guidance you are receiving is from a higher source.
    You are a perfect expression of God!
    Found in Texas

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  35. Dear Found,
    Yes, yes and double yes (as my 5-year old would say).
    Free

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  36. Found...
    But what is YOUR faith based on? (The Bible, the church, some book, a minister) What do you believe will get YOU into Heaven?

    Struggling

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  37. oops... typo on my 8:33 AM entry ... it should be john 14:6 not john 4:6

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  38. Struggling, Hi again. As you have read, I was raised in the FALC and I stayed with them til around 20 and then I set out to find the answers to the questions that stayed with me. I joined and was confirmed an Episcapalion (spelling) and then again I found myself questioning their ideology also. It seemed steeped in tradition and left me wanting more of an experience of God versus a religious experience. The difference for me was monumental.
    I read many different books, authors, religions, and different points of view and today I would say that I am predominately a spiritual Christian utilizing the teachings of Jesus to guide me. I do find myself drawn to wisdom from other sources if it is based on love and acceptance of self and humanity. Have I found my way? Yes, and how do I know it is true?
    It is true to me as Jesus found his own truth.
    You can be nothing less than a perfect expression of God!
    Found in Texas.

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  39. I wanted to answer the last part of your question that I don't think I addressed about "get me to heaven". The answer is both simple and complex depending on your belief system and your current belief on what God is.
    I believe that a child of God is already perfect in the eyes of God.
    He or she does not need to get God's approval for something already given. Does this mean I act arrogant and childish with him?
    No, absolutely not. I try to fill my life with love, joy and live my life to the fullest and try to give as much love to others as possible. I am not on this earth as some weird test that I may or may not get right. I am here to express God's intention in human form. I am also here to learn as much as I can of humanity and the spirit of God. My God is loving. My God is kind and gentle. Just as you would be with your child. A newborn does not need to prove itself with its parents. The love is unconditional and forthcoming.
    If your relationship with God is different, I would question why. Why must you beleive in an angry judgemental God? Perhaps it may be because you also view your life that way. I have never experienced God or Jesus in anything less than love and acceptance. There is no judgment. Life is an eternal cycle of remembering of who and what you are.
    You are a perfect expression of God!
    Found in Texas

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  40. Found,
    Do you believe the entire Bible is the Truth?

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  41. Many Trails Home12/15/2005 01:17:00 PM

    Dear "Found": "Yes" a thousandfold. Unity is also closest to my heart, the "theology" most consistent with my past (Christianity), my experiences, my intellect, etc. - even tho' I do not attend regularly now.
    I'll tell you a funny little story: one of my sisters was having a hard time, searching for spiritual footing, and I suggested she look for a Unity church in her area, which she did. Some year or two later, the shoe was on the other foot and I was struggling. Her advice? "Why don't you look for a Unity church? It might help you." She had forgotten I had suggested this to her in the first place!

    To "Struggling" I would say: Our faith is based on the belief that each of us can have a direct experience of God (also Jesus and any saint you choose to petition). "Found", correct me or add if you think this is off base or unclear.
    You don't HAVE to believe ANYBODY else's version. You can approach the "Father" directly. Lots of beliefs, writings, role models (ministers etc) may be helpful, but these are NOT MANDATORY. You are free; I am free.
    As for "Heaven": What exactly is heaven? It is not likely to be a bunch of angels sitting on clouds playing harps into eternity. We don't know what it is; we really cannot imagine it from our human perspective; and we really do not need to know as long as we live our lives down here according to our best understanding and intention. Contrary to Christian beliefs, it is not a "Goal" to be "Won" or, worse, lost by not playing the "Heaven and Hell" game quite right.
    Re: "I am the way" etc: I personally believe that Jesus is the way (Unity does not necessarily) but what does that mean exactly? It certainly does not mean that you have to chant "I believe in Jesus Christ, his only son" and other rote stuff. It is possible to follow Jesus as the way if you never even heard of him, if you "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and your neighbor as yourself." And "Your God" can be construed in any number of ways. We think certain verbal statements are necessary to purchase our ticket into heaven. How small-minded; how limiting of the majesty and glory of God; how small and mean-spirited we try to make him; how we insist on stuffing him into a box about the size of a fingernail.
    Love, joy, faith that God (and his legions of spiritual helpers) are at our shoulder, as close as our breath, ready to help us, support us, love us at all times. That to me is "true religion" by whatever name. Many blessings. MTH

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  42. I will respond first to the writer that asked, "Do I believe that entire Bible is the truth"?
    I believe that I found my "truth" from my experience of God and Jesus. Does this rule out, "The Bible" No. I do not point to any single moment or group of words as my entire "truth". How could I? I am the end result of my discoveries thus far. How easy it would be to say for example, "Jesus is the way" or "I believe all my sins are forgiven, etc." and call it a day. I believe discovering Jesus and God is a personal journey that will take you on an amazing journey if you are open to it and keep asking for guidance. Making simple statements that somebody "told" you to do out of fear does nothing to further your relationship with God or Jesus. What can you tell me about your relationships with them? What is your experience? Leave out the dogma, fear, and sin.
    Keep asking the leadership questions and see how uncomfortable they become defending this belief of an angry God.
    I believe in you.
    Found in Texas

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  43. To Many Trails Home, Thank you for the understanding of my journey. It is for me and me alone to discover. I ask nobody to follow me or my experience. I do not have a "way" or a church that could summize my entire experience thus far. Unity does come the closest. We are all on our journey's home to what we have always been. Children of God. If you chose to only have white people with you so be it. If you chose only to take people of a Finnish Heritage, so be it too.
    Putting your "faith" in another person to get to God is ridiculous and I would be cautious to follow anybody before God. Jesus is not the only "Son of God" He is an example of how you can live your life with God. We are all sons of God and are loved dearly by him.
    You can be nothing less than a perfect expression of God!
    Found in Texas

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  44. Found, I asked if you believed if the Bible was the truth because I am trying to determine the foundation of what you believe. Either you believe everything the Bible says is true or you don't. I am not asking if it is your entire truth. It would help me understand if you would just answer yes or no. I also grew up going to FALC and have left, but I never did get the impression of an angry God. I do believe that everything the Bible says is true, and I do have a personal relationship with Christ. I have eternal life in Heaven because Jesus died on the cross for me. It sounds to me like what you believe is based on your experiences or experiencing...
    I am a Christian, and I wouldn't say that Heaven is a place to be won or earned, but a free gift from God. Because God gave His ONE and ONLY Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish (there is a Hell) but have eternal life (john 3:16) To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, he gave the right to become children of God..(john 1:12) I can be nothing less than a perfect expression of God, except for one thing...my sin, which is everything but perfect, and separates me from God. Romans 8:1-4 says that God sent His Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering...Sinful man is everything but perfect. If I am separted from God, therefore I need to be reconciled with Him, which I am through Jesus (Sin offering for me, he paid the penalty for my sin!!) God is a God of love, but He is also a God of justice. I am not getting what I deserve (which is eternal life in Hell)because I believe that Jesus died for me. I am saved by Grace (which is getting what I don't deserve.. eternal life in Heaven) But there are people that will get what we all deserve, which is eternal life in Hell. So if there are people that perish, that means God is a God of Justice and wrath also. I am fearfully and wonderfully made (psalm 139:14) but I fall short of the glory of God...and the wages of sin is death (Romans..which is a great book to read) Everything I say I can support with scripture, the Bible (Scripture is God breathed! and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training (2 Tim 3:16). How can you support everything you say? Experiencing Jesus is a life long journey, but there will be persecution and discipline because God disciplines those he loves (as do I discipline my children because I love them..and it is not always fun, but it is necessary!)
    to MTH If your God can be construed in any number of ways..then you are creating your own God...and what can a god a mere human created do? Where is your basis for saying this? How can you support this statement?
    I don't only say "I believe in Jesus Christ," and "He is the way and the truth" I believe it and live my life accordingly...to me that is not rote. Jesus Died for me!!!!

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  45. Dear Vicki,

    I read you comments with great interest.
    My questions, then, to you:
    If Heaven is a free gift from God, isn't it EARNED if you have to believe first in order to enter?
    Why does God, the Supreme Being, need a sacrifice?
    Why is God given such human emotions in the Bible?
    Man, by nature and definition, is Sinful. Why must we keep apologizing and begging forgiveness for it?
    Of COURSE we fall short of the glory of God! We are human! Do we beat up and toss out a baby who can't eat by himself or soils his diaper? Why don't we, then, demand perfection from this baby?
    And lastly, EVERYONE creates their own God in their mind. That's where God resides in all of us.

    I am happy that you didn't grow up with an angry God. Many of us it. It was a very scary way to live.

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  46. The "all or nothing" stance on the bible is part of the right wing Christian Movement that I find troubling. "You are either with us or against us" mentality has really isolated the message.
    You believe in "sin", what is that?
    I believe that "man" has taken the message of Jesus and God and used their own words to control the masses with fear and threats. How could a child of God be born in "sin" and why would a loving God create such a monster? It does not make sense. You are buying into a "I'm not worthy" ideolgy that does not serve your spirit or the truth. All the quotes that you have used in your piece reek of man. A loving God is not a parent to judge you for every move or thought deemed right or wrong. Life is! We are!
    Take the "judgement" references out of the bible and you will have who God and Jesus are. You are free to believe and deem yourself "unworthy and full of sin" but I cannot see how that will please a God that loves you, "Just as I am". Let go of what you have been handed down from your "unworthy" teachers and start your own investigation on what is real. Your Bible was written and reported by Man and Man alone. God and Jesus did not actually sit down and right it and hand it to a pubisher. Take only what is good out of it and it will serve far more than what you are trying to find. You are struggling because you are trying to make sense out of a man made document. I said that scholars have found over 100,000 translation mistakes in the Bible.
    If you argue with that, so be it, but I will ask you how is that working for you?
    God is Love. Jesus is love. You are love. We are love.
    Anything else in untrue.
    Found in Texas

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  47. Also, why would a loving God, give his only son to die for everybody? Would you do that? Would any parent in their right mind do that? Jesus entire life was living proof that there is a life after this one. He was able to come back to his diciples and prove that point. Christians spend all their time on the cross and very little on what happened after that. God's children are everywhere. He did not isolate one as the chosen few. How ridiculous to even think that.
    Found in Texas

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  48. For the simple reason that a lot of my family is involved with Grace Apostles, I feel I should say that even though I don't attend on a regular basis, it is a good church for those people that attend there. One big difference is that they don't have the "we are the only ones" attitude. They are also working on getting involved with charitable causes within the community and working on establishing themselves with much less focus on traditions, more emphasis on faith. Yes, some are stuck in their ways and bitter about what happened in the FALC but time heals wounds. Some still have a hard time giving up old traditions. But, remember how hard it was for some of you to leave your church. Its hard to feel comfortable somewhere else, going to a church with a totally different style of worship. I say don't criticize Grace Apostles til you go there or talk to the people. Most are very open to discussing things, unlike the FALC. The purpose of Grace Apostles was to try to keep everyone together during the split. A lot of people (several hundred?) left the FALC from Cokato.

    Is Grace Apostles right for everyone? No, but I think it's fair to say that they have more love and understanding for people than the FALC does. By the way, some people from Grace Apostles read this blog site and agree with many postings. Many are on the same page as all of us.

    Gods Peace

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  49. anonymous 7:51 AM

    Interesting post on the Grace Apostles group. The Grace group is not exclusive. However what is the deal with the minister situation? Currently the ministers are Doug and Sven. Both are very nice and quite knowledgable on the Bible. But not seminary trained. I heard an ex-falcer turned ordained pastor is interested in pastoring at the Grace group. Does the Grace group have any interest in him? It seems that the Grace group is only interested in have only a few people preach. (i.e ministers from Lansing and Pheonix) What about bringing in a guest speaker from outside?

    God's Peace

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  50. Where are the Grace Apostles groups? I think I would like to go there. I sure bless them for their courage and willingness to look at what is true.

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  51. Grace Apostles is out of Cokato, MN. Either church will leave right where you started. Following Religion and not a spiritual experience. God is within you and not in a church pew. You and the father are one.
    You can be nothing less.
    Found in Texas

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  52. Many Trails Home12/16/2005 12:38:00 PM

    Dear Vicky,
    There is probably no point really in "taking you on" as there is a chasm as wide as the Grand Canyon between thee and me, but I will anyway.
    As sure as you are that the Bible is "God breathed," I am sure that it is not. As I have said before on this site, the Bible is no more infallible than the pope, and it was the early popes who so pronounced it. God did not give dictation. If he had, why would he give 4 versions? It is full of contradictions, errors, mis-translations, and deliberate changes by the early popes (read any history of the Bible that is not biased by the pre-conceptions of a specific church). To believe otherwise keeps one in kindergarten (nothing necessarily wrong with that; lots of company there!)

    When I said that God can be construed in any number of ways, it is because he is. You don't know what God is; I don't know what God is; no one does. God is unknowable. So to suggest that you know what God is better than someone, anyone, else is just plain arrogant.

    Furthermore, I think that you and most fundamentalist Christians have made a false god of belief. "What do you believe? What is the basis of your belief?" Who cares? God does not. Our beliefs are puny human constructs, considering the vast majesty of God. We do our best, and that's all it is. What did Jesus say? "Love the Lord your God, and your neighbor as yourself." And that's it. And I absolutely and profoundly "believe" that he meant that when he said it.

    Whatever works for you is fine, but we should not push our "righteousness" and certitude at anyone else. It is very Laestadian and not worthy of us. Humility and love belong at the center.
    May God's peace and wisdom grace us all this holiday season.
    Many blessings.

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  53. Found In Texas:

    Have you been to Grace Apostles? Did you have a bad experience there? You cannot judge how and where people will have a spiritual experience. You get right back to judging who has faith.

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  54. LLLreader to Found--Having read Bob's letter, I imagined that the Grace Apostles would be a group that would be different from any other group I know of. After leaving the OALC, I found great friendship and love in the Methodist church. I don't worship the church, it's just a good place to be. However, it's completely different then anything I knew growing up. I see the Grace Apostles as folks who have a wonderful opportunity to evaluate what they were taught and grow together in a better understanding of what Jesus really taught. It seems like a unique opportunity for wonderful spiritual growth. Am I misunderstanding who they really are?

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  55. To 2:18 PM.. It seems that the intolerance and judging is a very hard trait to overcome. Without the regeneration and new life through the Holy Spirit, it seems we find ourselves back in the blame game, intolerant of others who do not believe as we do.

    As the Koran and the Talmud are holy to the Muslims and Jews, the Bible is holy to Christians, and Christmas is a Holy season.

    Merry Christmas!

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  56. Found, I'm reprinting your comment with a small deletion. Neither you nor I can really know the extent and character of Peter and Bob's love for others. It is best to restrain our comments for their teachings, as you do in the first paragraph. Thanks for posting.

    Anonymous said...
    I guess I am too, jumping the gun on that church. It appears that Bob Pietie point of view from his letter to the FALC appears to be the same side of the coin arguing for the point of it. They both appear to lack dimension and spirituality. I did not get a sense of anything other than 2 religious men trying to be more "right" than the other, thus appearing "righteous" in the eyes of God.
    A true spiritual being would rejoice with anybody who found their path with God, not condemn it. If you reach the shores of heaven before me I will rejoice and say well done my fellow human being. We are all headed in the same direction even if you think the person with the least amount of faith is sputtering. Help those around in need. Do not crush the last bit of faith left just to further your own self-doubts.
    No, I have never been to the Apostles church in Cokato, but I do know of Peter Torola and Bob Pietie . . .
    Found in Texas

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  57. Michelle and I didn't have the courage to leave the FALC, because there didn't seem to be an alternative. We were FALC-or-Nothing thinkers. But we heard a sermon (not from a FALC pulpit) in 1996 that changed our thinking. I'll share the last three seconds: "Well done, good and faithful servant." Right out of the Bible! They're Jesus' words from one of his parables in Matthew 25. It was the first encouraging and hope-awakening sermon either of us had ever heard. We got a glimpse that day of a Jesus we knew very little about, quoted from a book we had spent very little time reading. More themes emerged as we went back again and again. Since 1996, we have settled into Evangelical Christian church pews in Minnesota (Grace, Wyzata Evangelical Free, Maple Grove Evangelical Free), Florida (Palm Beach Evangelical), Arizona (East Valley Bible), South Dakota (Vermillion Christian), and Michigan (Evangel Baptist, Ward Presbyterian, Brighton Evangelical) to leave with new challenges and convictions and insights that share a common thread: They are drawn from the Bible, just like Vicki's posting above (type "Found, I asked" in the search window).

    It's not practical to accept guidance from a source that's sometimes correct and sometimes mistaken. Romans would be a difficult read if some of it was true. Believing all of it is true changes everything.

    Yes, God reveals that He is loving. But He also reaveals that He is jealous and just. I challenge all who are struggling or traveling one of the many paths to Heaven or who have discovered one experientially: Pray to God in the name of Jesus Christ for courage and discernment, and read Romans, and consider whether Paul was inspired to pen the infallible, God-breathed Truth.

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  58. To DR:
    I get that you are now "right" most of the time in your new found faith. Being right with a "Bible" that is found to have over 100,000 errors from numerous man made translations hardly gives you the "right" to speak for a loving God. The "New" Christians that are now evolving on the political landscapes are fear based and the most angry people I have ever encountered. How did you lose your way? Why do you think you carry a torch for Jesus and God?
    I hardly believe that a small group of churches are the example to follow just because you are white and read a Bible that has lost its true message.
    Follow your heart Dale, not the dogma that is in your ego.
    Found in Texas

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  59. To DR:
    I get that you are now "right" most of the time in your new found faith. Being right with a "Bible" that is found to have over 100,000 errors from numerous man made translations hardly gives you the "right" to speak for a loving God. The "New" Christians that are now evolving on the political landscapes are fear based and the most angry people I have ever encountered. How did you lose your way? Why do you think you carry a torch for Jesus and God?
    I hardly believe that a small group of churches are the example to follow just because you are white and read a Bible that has lost its true message.
    Follow your heart Dale, not the dogma that is in your ego.
    Found in Texas

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  60. Many Trails Home12/18/2005 10:20:00 AM

    Found, you are right, of course, but you won't get anywhere arguing with Dale (or Vicki or BH or any number of the "infallible Bible" folks). They all have a very narrow concept of God, which is pretty wild considering how inconceivably expansive and majestic GOD IS. And they don't often see that their beliefs are fear-based. But I think we have all been there at some point in our "spiritual evolution" and have been equally "self righteous." Remember compassion. We are ALL beloved children of God.
    Many blessings. MTH

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  61. "narrow concept of God" "fear based"

    Those phrases are quite judgmental, and stereotypical! It's amazing how easily those phrases are used to put another person down who has expressed his most heartfelt beliefs, as if his own journey has counted for nothing if it hasn't led him away from belief in the Bible, he is white, and still attends a somewhat mainstream church. Doesn't that matter at all to you, MTH and Found? Are doubt and skepticism the only logical and 'intelligent' option? Why is it that you are so willing to believe though, that you are the only ones who have discovered how 'inconceivable expansive and majestic GOD IS'? Do you realize how this sounds? How you elevate yourselves and diminish others? Is this what academia has produced in this country?

    But then again, "to Dale, Vicki, BH, or any number of us "infallible Bible" folks".. we won't get anywhere arguing with the 'fallible doubter' folks. They all have a very narrow concept of God, which is pretty wild considering they consider themselves so expansive in their love for their fellow man. Oh! but that doesn't include Bible believing Christians. Hmphh!

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  62. Dale,

    I truly enjoyed reading your post, and it gives me great hope for our Laestadian churches in a roundabout way. We are seekers and searchers, and it's a good thing. God rewards those who diligently seek Him.

    "It's not practical to accept guidance from a source that's sometimes correct and sometimes mistaken. Romans would be a difficult read if some of it was true. Believing all of it is true changes everything."

    Amen! It's called "FAITH". As opposed to "DOUBT". And we can rest in the faith that what God promises is true and that His word is true. We know this not only because of what someone else has told us, but by what we have experienced ourselves. God is there, God is Love, and because of that great Love, he is also Just. We shall reap what we sow, which those who doubt and tear down must consider very carefully. Nobody has God in a box. God's invitation to faith and trust is open to all, to either accept or reject.

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  63. Found, you wrote..."A true spiritual being would rejoice with anybody who found their path with God, not condemn it. If you reach the shores of heaven before me I will rejoice and say well done my fellow human being. We are all headed in the same direction even if you think the person with the least amount of faith is sputtering. Help those around in need. Do not crush the last bit of faith left just to further your own self-doubts. and also you wrote..."You cannot judge how and where people will have a spiritual experience. You get right back to judging who has faith."...interesting to me how that applies to everyone, except Bible believing Christians. I wrote what I believe...whether or not you agree or disagree, it is my spriritual journey and Found and MTH, attempted to attack my foundation, doing the opposite of what you wrote.
    You say the Bible has errors and contradictions, yet you have contradicted yourselves. You have TRIED to crush my faith by denouncing the Bible.
    God offered me a free gift. I accepted that gift. A gift of faith, a gift of eternal life in Heaven...I did not EARN it, it was given to me...it was a GIFT!!! I did nothing to earn it or deserve it, yet He gave it to me. It doesn't make sense to pick and choose from the Bible. IF you choose to take all the references to judgement out and are left with only a God of Love, then what is stopping someone else from taking all the references of Love out and ending up with only a God wrath and Justice? How do you decide what comes out and what stays. If you did take all the references to judegement out, then what is the consequence for those who do wrong? IF there is no judgement, then why not steal, etc? Nothing will happen if you do? Without seeing the consequences,the judgement and the wrath, we can't fully appreciate what we are being saved from. If right wing fundamentalist Christians believe the entire Bible is true...then I proudly stand and say that is me. This is not a "new" trend that has recently popped up believing the entire Bible as the truth. My personal spritual journey and FAITH is based on Jesus' death on the cross and the God Breathed truth of the Bible. God has a gift. It is a GIFT, the most important gift you will ever accept or deny. What other God would send HIS ONE AND ONLY SON to DIE for us...Think about that...HE DIED for you...Wow! I accept the free gift HE gave...It is a Gift that has been offered to you as well. Merry Christmas.

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  64. When I was eight years old, my dad read the story of Job to me and my sisters. I was amazed that a man could still love God after losing all his kids in such outlandish ways in only a few hours. Knowing our childish minds (not the best place to pause in a story: "...all Job's kids died. Off to bed; I'll tell you the rest tomorrow!"), my dad was quick to explain that God restored Job in the end.

    As I got older, whenever I was horribly disappointed or heartbroken, I remembered Job and noted that God restored him in the end.

    Scholars call our best literature "living books" because of their timeless quality -- the authors (Steinbeck, Hemingway, Miller, Salinger, etc.) still speak to us through their writings. The story of Job spoke to me many times, and that was God's plan.

    The Bible, too, is a living book.

    God bless y'all!

    P.S. Found & Many Trails, I'm not ignoring you. I waited for this postscript to share with you my experiential outcome of today’s Minnesota Vikings game: The Vikes beat the Pittsburgh Steelers today by a score of 3-0. Another shutout! Yesss!!

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  65. To Vickie and Dale,
    You are so "right" about your Bible. It will give you all the hate and judgement you need to defend your faith in it. Please continue on your shallow journey and keep with your angry, judgemental God. How is that working for you? I am sure he is pleased you are sending most of his creation to a hell that does not exist.
    Peace on Earth Good Will Toward Men!
    Found in Texas

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  66. Found in Texas,

    What is it that you are so bitter and angry about? Do you still carry bitterness because you felt deceived by whatever laestadian/apostolic church you grew up in?

    My family was targeted, attacked, and humiliated by the FALC. The only thing I keep with me now is that nobody can take my faith away and it seems that love is the only thing that brings people to faith.

    Saying hurtful comments about people from the pulpit like they have done in the FALC is the same as attacking people online. Lets rise above that and try to really understand where people are coming from and why. Let's analyze information before jumping to conclusions! If you think someone said something that you disagree with, ask for him or her to back it up with scripture.

    It is hard to break away from traditions. Many ex-Laestadians are still very traditional lutherans because of their childhood upbringing. To ask them to give up everything familiar to them and join a totally progressive, contemporary church isn't the answer either.

    For whatever church you are attending: The main thing to ask is if you are being spiritually fed. This is something you can only decide for yourself and not others.

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  67. " To Vickie and Dale,
    You are so "right" about your Bible. It will give you all the hate and judgement you need to defend your faith in it. Please continue on your shallow journey and keep with your angry, judgemental God. How is that working for you? I am sure he is pleased you are sending most of his creation to a hell that does not exist.
    Peace on Earth Good Will Toward Men!
    Found in Texas"


    Love in action.

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  68. God’s love is so wondrous and wide that it embraces all of us, no matter what we "profess" or understand, no matter how we were raised or where we worship, no matter how new or old we are on this journey. Relax in God's love, friends. Merry Christmas!

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  69. After a Peaceful morning of meditation and prayer, I have decided to opt out of this type of dialog. Jesus has asked me to politely bow out of any further conversation saying to me, "Given their perception of the World, they cannot help but see it this way". I am happy to have such personal guidance from such a Master. May all of you find the inner Peace and love that is always available to you.
    You can be nothing less than a perfect expression of God.
    Found in Texas

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  70. So here we all are...at different parts in our journey of faith.

    Some have let go of laestadianism completely, some are still holding on, but some are in those churches, believing that doctrine 100%.
    My prayers to the people this family who are in families that have split, especially those in the grace apostles or FALC. May you FALCers, with your "we are the only ones saved" doctrine, even for one day, accept that the people who left from the last split DO have faith, they are NOT "worldly". (Those who come from the laestadian background, you know how overused and meaningless that word is!)

    I hope we can all come together, regardless if how exactly we interpret the bible, and find peace remembering the birth of christ. Let the anger go, focus on being loving, caring, and supportive.

    Some advice to the FALCers reading this: calling the Grace Apostles self righteous, worldly, etc...and giving sermons from the pulpit that anyone who goes to Grace Apostles is going to hell does not bring people in the doors. I dont have time to go to church to listen to the latest gossip. Maybe you do??
    Plus, do you really think thats what Christ would say to his people? No, he would preach love and acceptance and forgiveness. Notice how I didnt say just forgiveness. :)
    Jesus had more of a message for us than that.

    Just some thoughts...

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  71. Dear Found:

    I am the person who reposted your quote at 12:35 am. Could I just share something with you in hopefully a very non-judgmental way? I believe you are on exactly the right track.. I think that the lack of individual Bible reading is what has caused so many of the problems within all churches. People are like sheep who blindly follow their leaders, but not the Good Shepherd. I'm not FALC (from a different branch), but it was when I began reading the Bible for myself that I realized how much *love* was spoken of! God IS a God of love, he loves you just the way you are, unconditionally! I hope that you will choose to feel and believe in that love, especially in the next few days as we celebrate Christmas. Read and meditate as you have done, put on some Christmas carols, dance to Jingle Bell rock, enjoy your loved ones, laugh, light candles, hug yourself, indulge in some goodies, wish someone a Merry Christmas!!

    I believe that sometimes you DO need to seperate yourself from that which is not healthy. Surround yourself with positive and upbeat people, who find joy in life. It's the very best medicine of all!

    Yes, you are much loved, dear one! :-)

    God bless!

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  72. I know Found has opted out of the dialogue, and I truley appreciate the loving spirit which they have done so. I hope this is read taken in a loving spirit as well. For the sake of understanding I pose one last each side stance, and what the ultimate final outcomes could be:
    Let's say I agree with you, that the Bible isn't the truth, and has many errors, and that God is a God of Love (which is the one thing it seems we do agree on)...and that there is no Hell. I live my life in a loving way and have a good experience while here on earth. Then, when I die, there are a few things that could happen. It could be true that there is no Hell, and I either am in Heaven, or just no where and there is no eternal life. So it ends up pretty well...good life on earth and either Heaven or no eternal life...not bad. Let's say there is a Hell though, and I didn't believe that there was one, and I didn't believe the Bible was true...now the outcome is a little different. Good, happy life and experience on earth, but now since I didn't believe the Bible and Jesus dying on the cross for me, I end up in Hell forever...Good life on earth, not so good for eternal life.
    Likewise, lets say I believe that the Bible is true, and that there is a Heaven and Hell and that God is a loving God, and also a God of Justice, so there is a Heaven abd Hell. Let's say I am wrong, and there is no judement or Hell...so I live my life serving God, loving others, and have a good experience here on earth, but there is no Hell. So likewise, it ends up fine...Good life on earth and no such thing as eternal life, or there is a Heaven so I go there. Fine ending. But now lets say I am right, that there is a Heaven and there is judement, therefore there is a Hell. Now, again, good life on earth, loving others and experiencing God, but now I die and there is a Heaven and Hell. Because I believed what the Bible said is true and accepted it, I get to go to Heaven, saved from Hell. Of all of the options, I choose this one...there is too much at stake for me to say there is no Hell. I don't want to live there eternally.
    Found and MTH, thank you for engaging in a heartfelt dialogue. I appreciate your stance on a Loving God. You are very right, On this we agree...He is a Loving God. I truly hope you have a loving and joyful experiences in your journeys!!!I truly and sincerly wish all a very MERRY CHRISTMAS.

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  73. I just wanted to add, that I didn't write the above comments in an "I'm right, your wrong" attitude. I truly did not and hopefully it will not be taken that way. I wrote that to support why I believe the Bible in its entirety is true, which is, for me, there is too much at stake not to. Again, much love to all!

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  74. It's heartening to see the commenters head away from acrimony. Honest discussion is healthy, but vitriol closes doors.

    Vicki, I would like to respond to your last comment, but only in the sense of exploring and sharing our views. The reason you give for believing the Bible is totally true seems to be a modified version of Pascal's Wager, which is an old argument for belief in God. This argument does not hold up for me for two primary reasons.

    First, I cannot choose what I believe. No matter what the benefits, I cannot choose to believe something if I lack evidence for it. I suspect it is the same for you: could you, even if your eternal salvation depended on it, honestly cause yourself to believe in _The Book of Mormon_, the Mormon holy book believed by them to be the word of God?

    Second, even if I could choose to believe something, how do I know I would choose the correct belief? Perhaps it's only the Mormons who have the correct belief, and all others are going to hell. Or maybe it's the Muslims. The choice isn't binary.

    Your believing the Bible to infallible doesn't bother me, in itself. What does bother me is where I've seen literalist belief in the Bible lead too many people. Literalist belief in the Bible has been used to support slavery, segregation, subjugation of women, and treating gays as the lepers of old.

    Everyone, literalists included, put the Bible through their interpretive filter to take out a message. This filter is the key. If what comes through this filter motivates the reader to lead a life of love, forgiveness, and peace, I encourage the reader to continue with their form of faith. On the other hand, if what comes through the filter is used to support a life filled with condemnation, oppression of the perceived "other," and fear, that reader has an unhealthy faith, and that faith should die.

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  75. Ilmarinen, thank you for your response. I guess in order for me to reply I have a few questions I need to ask to help me understand what you are saying. You said you "cannot choose what you believe", and then you said, " I cannot choose to believe something if I lack evidence for it"....I do not understand how these two statements support each other. Can you not choose what you believe at all, or can you not choose what you believe because you lack the evidence? If just lacking the evidence is stopping you from choosing to believe something, then you are still choosing, you are just choosing to not believe something. You still are deciding (choosing). Does that make sense or am I getting caught up in a detail you didn't mean for me to get caught up in?
    I guess I just am asking for clarification on whether or not you think you can't choose what you believe at all, or if you can't believe something because you lack evidence for it. (Would you believe in something if you had evidence?)

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  76. Vicki, I'll try to explain what I meant. A few years ago, I was taking the Lord's Supper and heard the traditional words, "Take, eat, this is the true body of our Lord Jesus Christ, given for you. Take, drink, this is the true blood of our Lord Jesus Christ, shed for you." At that point, I suddenly realized that for me, the bread and wine were NOT the true body and blood of Jesus. They were not even symbolic of anything supernatural. They were simply bread and wine. They had no power for me. Had I been able to choose, I would have made it such that they were more than just bread and wine in my mind, but I cannot just flip switches in my mind.

    Perhaps an analogy might help me explain myself. Imagine you are lying in bed, and the question comes to mind, "Did I lock the front door?" You go downstairs to check the lock and realize you cannot see a door. The harder you look, the more clear it becomes that all you can see is wall. You remember hearing others in your family tell of the comfort they have in your home's beautiful front door and the security in its heavy dead-bolt, but you cannot share this comfort and security. You can imagine a rectangle of wall to be a door. You can even draw a representation of a door on the wall. But it's still just wall. The door represents the supernatural and the wall represents the natural. I don't see any doors: all I see is wall.

    "If just lacking the evidence is stopping you from choosing to believe something, then you are still choosing, you are just choosing to not believe something."

    It's not as if I could just choose to believe or not believe something, any more than I could choose believe that a teacup is floating in the rings of Saturn. I've haven't closely examined every square inch of the rings of Saturn, so it's possible that a teacup is orbitting Saturn in those rings, but I lack any evidence to that effect. I cannot honestly say, "I believe a teacup is orbitting in the rings of Saturn."

    If you don't know anything about the physical me, you cannot say, "I believe Ilmarinen is less than 5' tall." You lack evidence for that assertion, so you must suspend judgment. You do not choose to disbelieve that I am under 5' tall. In the same way, I do not choose to believe or disbelieve: God just hasn't shown Himself unto me, so I suspend judgment. I'm open if He wants to say Hello someday. I would believe in something if I had some evidence that it is true.

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  77. Ilmarinen,

    what you say is very Biblical, as you probably know. God says "you have not chosen me, I have chosen you".. and "no man can come to me, except the Father draw him". You are being honest when you say that it has not seen the evidence and therefore cannot believe. IMHO, God will give each of us the opportunity to believe that He exists, but in His time.

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  78. Ilmarinen, your last example of your height,helped me to understand...suspended judgement until you have evidence.
    How does faith play into that?Hebrews 11:1 says that faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see.

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  79. Everything in God's time, as the saying goes. We are all pilgrims on this journey we call life, but due to our unique experiences, each is at a different pace, in a different place, with a different understanding and perspective. I wouldn't think God expects us to all be on the exact word of the same page at the same time. That is thinking in human time and not God's time. So let's help and support our fellow pilgrims with love and kindness for, in the end, all we have is each other.
    Merry Christmas.
    God's Peace and Many Blessings this Holiday Season and in the New Year.

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  80. LLLreader: "Everything in God's time"--your post was beautifully written. I tend to get myself all worked up if someone questions my faith because of some of my personal beliefs, and I know it's because of my upbringing. This spiritual journey is so personal to each of us--God's love is big enough to include us all--and our love needs to be big enough to include all of our fellow travelers. Blessing to Everyone.

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  81. Many Trails Home12/22/2005 12:39:00 PM

    Ditto. That was beautifully done. I also tend to get worked up (a very Laestadian tendency) when confronted with what I see as rigidity and, especially, exclusivity. For which I apologize now, and will probably have to again (back-sliding always a possibility).
    Many blessings to all you dear ones this holiday season. MTH

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  82. How do we learn about God's love, if the Bible isn't true? Or are you saying that it's true, but has discrepancies?

    Thanks

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  83. All instruction is but a finger pointing to the moon; and those whose gaze is fixed only upon the pointer will never see beyond.

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  84. Can anyone tell me if in the FALC that the ministers are still cutting down other churches and telling that the FALC are the only ones going to heaven (like they use to do years ago).

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  85. Yes, they (the FALC) are still cutting down other churches. Read the letter by Bob Pieti. It was a one of the reasons for the Grace Apostles split that recently happened.

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  86. I am a member of FALC and I am happy to be a member of this church. I glanced at some of the above comments and found some of them to be far from correct. FALC ministers and members always encourage others to read from the bible at home(or elsewhere.) There is also weekly bible class where everyone can speak about their thoughts and what comes to mind. My guess is that during some of the heated moments in Cokato, some words were either spoken with a different thought in mind. If I heard someone trying to encourage others not to read the bible, I (and others) would talk to them about it.

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    1. What are your thoughts about the GALC split? I'm curious as to if you believe that those that believe in the forgiveness of sins, will not be granted access to heaven, if they do not attend the FALC.

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  87. Thanks for commenting and responding with specifics. I have chosen not to post your email address as a resource for readers of this blog until I know who you are, and have confidence that you can be of help to them. Shoot me an email if you'd like. Thanks again.

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  88. Does anyone have a copy or working link to the letter written by Bob Pieti? I’m a member of FALC and would like to read it. Thanks!

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