"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Open Thread

Monday, November 07, 2005

Open Thread

At our church, I sit on the "intern committee" that is responsible for supporting our pastoral intern, who looks like a plump, mild Midwestern farmgirl but in fact is a former physician with a booming voice and considerable chutzpah. Yesterday was All Saint's Day and with many concrete examples (from folks we know), she gave us this message. It's still ringing joyfully in my ears: I am God's beloved now, and I am a work in progress. I don't know how or when my gifts will be used. Confident in God's love, I can offer myself up to love others. Ain't that great? We can be bold, even in our ignorance of the future.

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New York
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I pray that this blog is helpful in some way.

Please use this thread to post anything you'd like, and thanks for visiting.


  1. Talking about being bold reminds
    me of a TV ad that I loved.
    (Microsoft I believe)

    In the commercial a women bursts
    into a meeting with the master
    on a huge TV screen spouting the
    party line in a George Orwell
    (1984) type of totalitarian way
    to the amorphous masses assem-
    bled.(All dressed in the same
    olive drab uniforms),

    She came running down the aisle
    swinging a huge sledge hammer
    and hurled it at the screen
    smashing it to bits!

    Sort of an allegory for finally
    seeing the light and smashing
    all her brain-washed fears.

    P.S. Are you still carrying your
    brain-washed conscious and
    sub-conscious fears ?


    Orwell also wrote "Animal
    Farm" with this familiar
    saying "All animals are
    equal , but some are more
    equal than others."

    Which is also what the chosen
    few like to believe.

  2. It was actually Apple's ad and can be seen as a break through for the success of the original Macintosh computer.


  3. Thank you, Troll -- I had never seen that ad although I am a happy Mac user. I guess it came out when I was still sans-TV.

    As to your question, let me say that I suffer no illusions about my mind. It is dotted with superstitions and cranky old reflexes. No doubt my atheist friends consider my faith one of them, a little quaint, like my fear of spiders or of shoes worn inside the house.

    No doubt they are right, sometimes.

    But one of the illusions of materialism is that the only truth is that which is based on consensual knowledge.

    Breaking behind that screen is incredible freedom. If you have an analytical bent, you can become your own walking laboratory, observing all kinds of phenomena with no need to verify or publish.

    What do you think?

  4. "No doubt my atheist friends consider my faith one of them, a little quaint, like my fear of spiders or of shoes worn inside the house."

    Your form of faith seems to be healthy. If it helps you lead a better life, I hope you hold onto it. The faith most non-religious people have a problem with is that which is used to harm and control others, such as in fighting against the use of the soon-to-be-released HPV vaccine.

    "But one of the illusions of materialism is that the only truth is that which is based on consensual knowledge."

    I honestly don't know what this is supposed to mean. Some would describe me as a materialist, but I don't think that something needs to be consensually agreed upon to accept it as true. As a matter of fact, many things I accept as true are rejected by the majority of people around me. I simply don't accept something unless I have a reason to accept it, and that reason doesn't need to be scientific. I can't conjure up and imagine something to be true just because I want it to be so.

  5. Free2B;

    Keep in mind in the following
    discussion that I have a career
    in civil engineering where the
    verification of the reaction of
    physical matter is the touchstone
    of my existence.

    If you can't verify the phenome-
    nom you are observing how do you
    separate it from a dream, illu-
    sion ,or hallucination ?

    Even some of the phenomenon you
    can observe is an illusion. I
    look out my cottage window across
    Lake Superior and the world
    certainly looks flat to me. The
    sun moves across the sky and at
    night the stars also. Sure looks
    like my observations tell me we
    are at the center of the universe
    which the Catholic Church once
    told us to believe or face the
    rack or burning at the stake.

    Can you tell me what kind of
    phenomenon you have observed
    and analyzed ?

    P.S.This is a great subject for
    discussion !

  6. I don't think analytical people can survive in a Laestadian church. Once you start asking questions, people think something's wrong with you and become fearful. Some also say that "seeking out knowledge" is a bad thing because supposedly we are working for our salvation. Is it wrong to analyze...or THINK??

  7. Maybe that fear of knowledge of the bible is not held by all congregations but I know it is held by the FALC. They preach against reading the bible, preaching for a "simple faith". When people tell you to stop reading the bible, RUN!!!

  8. Troll,

    " If you can't verify the phenome-
    nom you are observing how do you
    separate it from a dream, illu-
    sion ,or hallucination ?"

    From what I can understand, some Christians don't worry or care whether their beliefs are dreams and all make-believe. If they think their faith helps them lead a better life, they just block out those questions and go with what works for them. And as long as that faith is healthy, is there any problem with doing that?

    For myself, I can't just go along with something unless I'm personally convinced of its truth. I'd rather say, "I don't know," than twist my mind into accepting something that I'm not convinced is real or true, even if believing in that something inspires warm and fuzzy feelings.

  9. Thanks for the interesting posts! To answer you Troll, my experiences of love and grief are deeply personal and subjective. Yet for me, they are no "less real" because they cannot be measured, verified or effectively communicated. I cannot "prove" to you that I love my husband and children., and if my "state of being" with them is a dream or hallucination, so be it.

    I don't say this to persuade you of anything, because I don't think it is possible. No more than I could persuade you to love my family!

    Ilmarinen, if Christian belief is simply utilitarian, in the sense of "helping one lead a better life" or in "inspiring warm and fuzzy feelings," that could not explain its vast and varied expression, with great personal cost for many. Could it be that some folks have had experiences that you haven't?

    While "religion" is undergoing a necessary fight for its life, brought on by the advance in science and human knowledge, religion is different from faith.

    It serves the truth better to admit that we cannot know another's mind, or pretend to understand their faith, or lack thereof.

    And if God is worthy of the name, scientific inquiry is no threat, nor are doubts or fumbling, inconstant, contradictory thoughts.

    Once I read a poet compare her experience of God to that of a child waiting to be born, aware of sounds and sensations, capable of thought, able to smile and cry and struggle, yet ignorant of the world that awaited.

  10. "if Christian belief is simply utilitarian, in the sense of "helping one lead a better life" or in "inspiring warm and fuzzy feelings," that could not explain its vast and varied expression, with great personal cost for many."

    Utilitarianism is not the reason Christian beliefs, as a whole, exist. Nontheless, there _are_ some people who call themselves Christian and hold Christian beliefs because it helps them lead better lives and promotes warm and fuzzy feelings within them. Other people who call themselves Christian hold their beliefs for other reasons.

    "Could it be that some folks have had experiences that you haven't?"

    No two people have had the same experiences. If someone else's experiences lead them to hold Christian beliefs, that's perfectly all right with me, as long as those people don't use those beliefs to hurt others.

  11. Amen to that. I hope soon you will share your story, Ilmarinen.

    You might enjoy this quote: "The heart will never worship what the mind rejects."

  12. the quest for knowledge is an interesting thought...
    Jesus told the lawyers in Luke 52:11 that through their legalism they take away the key of knowledge.
    That really hit me! There is a truth in God's realm that he wants us to discover.
    But the experts of the law will never find it.
    This makes everything backswards!
    Dont you marvel how the scriptures do away with the intellect of man?

    Our search for knowledge and our ability to think and question and reason need to be alive and well but in a very different manner than the Pharisees, scribes and lawyers or we'll be ever learning and never coming to knowledge of the truth.

    I'm actually quite dumb!
    But I sure am rich!
    Love BH

  13. sorry, my reference is backwards...
    Luke 11:52



  14. taking that a step further...
    you know what's cool about that whole thought is dumb people can become smart and smart people become dumb

    ha ha


    (come on, it helps us dummy feel better!)

  15. Many Trails Home11/10/2005 06:21:00 PM

    Hello, All. I am sending a post from the trenches, so to speak. I know you are all reading about Avian flu, but I would like to present this issue, or better yet, threat, from my perspective. Understand that I am a bit of a "Chicken Little," as I see the world backed into a tight corner, technologically speaking.

    First, there is no IMMEDIATE threat, as the disease is limited primarily to birds and a few who have come in close contact with the infected ones. However, IF (or WHEN, as many experts say) it jumps the barrier and mutates to a form easily transmissible human-to-human, the world as we know it may drastically change overnight. By overnight, I mean within a week or so. No one can predict WHEN this might occur (any more than anyone can predict when "The Big One" might hit California).

    If this mutation occurs, it is expected to sweep the globe rapidly, as it has an incubation period of only 2 days (compared to 8 days for SARS). It is likely to have a high fatality rate, especially among young healthy people. And we are essentially defenseless.

    There is no vaccine. Let me repeat (despite mis-prints in the press), there is no vaccine. Tamiflu will be unavailable to most of us, unless something changes drastically on the international pharmaceutical front, which is not too likely in the near term (months to a year). Furthermore, Tamiflu is most effective taken for prevention, not treatment (most of those infected in Vietnam who were given it died anyway). This preventive regimen would require a daily dose for 1-3 years. I myself have no hope of getting this, and I'm in the medical field. Our hospital has less than 35 doses; there is no significant "national stockpile;" and we are the 50th country on the list to get a "stockpile" from Roche, the company that has the patent. So we cannot place all our hopes on Tamiflu.

    Quarantines would be enacted, but prove useless, because we cannot contain a flu that moves so fast.

    So what then? As I see it, the greatest threat is not from the disease itself but from the mass hysteria that would develop, particularly in this country. Imagine a United States in which: no one went to school; no one went to church; no one went to restaurants or traveled for pleasure; no one went to malls; no one came to doctors' and dentists' offices for annual exams and tooth cleaning. Imagine no one doing anything that was not essential. Imagine no imports and exports. Do you realize, for instance, that the US does not have one shoe factory left within its borders? As one epidemiologist was quoted in Newsweek 10/31, "Even if you survive the disease, what will you do when the entire world economy shuts down?" This, I believe, is not an exaggeration, and many people do not believe it can happen only because it is inconceivable to them. The ramifications are inconceivable to us all.

    I think it is important that we all think about what we would do, how we would live, and how we might change our priorities now, in particular, to protect our families. We cannot afford to be "asleep at the wheel."

    I will add a little prayer. "May God guide us in the way we should go, that we may move into the future, whatever it holds, with wisdom and strength." MTH

  16. Yikes, MTH, I've been snoring away at this wheel. Now that I'm awake, what should I do?

  17. I guess there is nothing else to do than eat tons of garlic and pray God to protect us. But when you run out of garlic, just hope for the best and leave it in God's hands whether you will die or survive. God is great!

    However, I'm quite sceptical about the threat because there have been so many other pandemic threats the media has been hysterical about and none of them developed into a real pandemic so why would this one?

    By the way, have you heard the story of a shepard boy who amused himself by making false wolf alarms? He thought it was fun to see the villagers rush to his help whenever he yelled "Wolf, wolf!". The villagers got tired of this trick and then one day when a real wolf attacked his flock, noone came. I wonder if this will be the case with the false pandemic alarms, too? When the real pandemic hits, noone thinks it can happen because none of the earlier pandemic threats have come true?

  18. Many Trails Home11/11/2005 10:04:00 AM

    To Free2BMe: Get some masks. Stock some food (like the Mormons do). Set your intention for health and safety for your family, and pay attention to your inner guidance. Pray, like Theoforos says, but I would suggest for guidance, wisdom, and strength, rather than that "this cup pass by me," because we don't know God's purpose in any of this.

    To Theoforos: If you read the "science," you will know why a pandemic is deemed inevitable eventually. I think it is ironic that the smallest living critters (viruses) are the ones most likely to do us in.

    Here is what "science" is saying right now, as I understand it: The world is overdue for a pandemic; they come by regularly. Viruses are busy mutating all the time, and we have some new ones in the stew (H5N1) to which humans have no immunity. IF this ever mutates to an easily transmissible form, we are stewed. Some virologists think that it should have by now and the fact that it hasn't means that it can't, for some reason. So we may be "safe" from H5N1, and we may not have to face the threat of a true pandemic for some years, until another HxNy comes along.

    The reason I made my post (and that WHO and CDC are so obsessed with it) is that most people - indeed, countries - are clueless as to how fast this could develop and consequently completely unprepared emotionally, as well as practically. We assume "WE" would have plenty of time to react, act, cope. It just ain't so. I hope we will be lucky (that's all it will be) this time.

    For a broader perspective, read the lead article in FOREIGN AFFAIRS, July/Aug 2005. (If you only read pop news, you'll "throw the baby out with the bathwater." Remember that one?) MTH

  19. MTH...

    I was wondering...
    how did you respond to the Y2K threat? Did you prepare?
    Did you take it serious...?

    Just wondering...


  20. Many Trails Home11/12/2005 11:30:00 AM

    BH, you wonder a lot, don't you? I love it; I do too.
    With the Y2K issue, at first I thought it was baloney. I had worked as a computer programmer for a major oil company in my 20s (and wrote some of those very programs!)and knew that there was no way they would sit on their duffs and let something like this bring them down. But I became more concerned when I heard stories of the complexity of the banking networks etc and wondered if anybody really had a grip on the whole thing. So I did make some preparations, yes, altho I was not surprised when nothing at all happened, as that was my first take. That was a "Cry Wolf," of course.

    But it did get me thinking, and it should get all of us thinking. What if, what if, what if? Someday one of these "what ifs" will happen to US; some certainly affected people in New Orleans, also in New York. These should be opportunities we take to reassess our priorities, both individually and nationally. NOT based on fear but rather "Are we living as God would have us on this planet that he created?" That's just my opinion.

  21. " NOT based on fear but rather "Are we living as God would have us on this planet that he created?""
    If we are living as God would have us then we will be like the sparrows and put our faith in trust in him. Does this mean we will never have devastating, trying circumstances in our lives? Absolutely not! She did bite that fruit you know! We just need faith that "in the end", whether is be here or in Paradise, it will all work out in the end.
    my 2 cents

  22. MTH,

    Yes, I am a wondering person... I've also been prone to worry...
    something that God is helping me to overcome.
    I think I have too vivid an immagination and it can be a negative thing... it can also be a good thing... if I can figure out how to keep Satan from using it against me.
    For this reason I have made a vow that I will not join "band wagons" anymore. I have this tendency to do all or nothing. Its the same way with Christianity for me.. If we're saved by the law, then I'm going to do the law and I'm going to do it right! But if we're saved by grace, let it be by grace and not ONE BIT of our own works. Since the grace of God has been revealed to me I have been on one band wagon and it has been to keep that grace in action.
    If we get hit by bird flu's or by Y2K or hurricanes tear us up to bits... or disasters of any kind force us into a very different life view or style... This one thing I know... that God is good and I am in His care and keeping.
    I may find out something terrible tomorrow or next week or year that has nothing to do with Y2K or bird flu... but can devastate my little world the way I know it... Whats the difference? I think that would be even harder since everyone else would seem to go on as usual and my world turn upside down...
    Thats my thoughts and I'm really starting to look at the motto "THO GOD SLAY ME YET I WILL TRUST HIM".
    I want to understand a thought like that...
    ... what do you think it is to live like we should?
    I dont know how to live like we should! Hmm...

  23. The Greatest of these is LOVE11/13/2005 03:42:00 PM

    For those who might be interested in the recent split of the First Apostolic Lutheran Congregation of Cokato, MN, there is some information available at the Yahoo XLLL site. This information was written by Bob Pieti and is from the perspective of those who left to form the Grace Apostles Lutheran Church. The members of the First Apostolic Lutheran Church are also known as Heidemans or Heidemanians, although both the FALC and the SRK/LLC claim Arthur and Paul Heideman as spiritual forbears. Please join me in praying that a healthy and true faith prevails for the members of these groups as they go through this difficult time.

  24. How do you get to the yahoo exlll site?

  25. You can get to the Yahoo XLLL site by clicking here.

    The information on the split can be viewed by clicking here.

    If you are not already registered, you will need to join the Yahoo Group.

  26. I grew up in the Cokato FALC and I can back up everything that was said in this article. I was at the annual meetings...my family was directly targeted, therefore, forcing us to get involved. That article brought back a lot of memories for me (it brought back some anger, too, that I have been trying to set aside). I don't like using the word cult to describe them...but I lack a better term right now. Hopefully this letter helps some of the ones still stuck in the church.

  27. I was mailed this article by a friend two days before it was posted here. I did try and email Bob with the link on the letter. It was a dead link. I hope that the person who posted this article verified that Bob wrote it first. I do believe this was the chain of events and is probably true for each person listed. However, I wanted to make sure that Bob did indeed write this piece and discuss it with him. It would be terrible to have a writing attributed to you on the internet if you did not write it. Especially a document of such an explosive nature. I am not from the Cokato FALC but grew up in the FALC and personally know just about everyone listed in this piece. I have not been in the Grace Apostles church. I do have to say though, they are in danger of becoming a cult just like the rest of the LLL offshoots just because it is the mentality of the pack so to speak. So if you are in the new church, keep vigil that "we are the only ones" stays out. Right now I understand that most who attend do get it that there are Christians everywhere. If this starts to change....run! Is it still said that Christians don't wear makeup, shouldn't have TV, friends should be chosen from the church, etc? If so, you have only changed your pot, not your potting soil. I really don't know what they are preaching because I've never been. I guess my question is are they still very law minded while speaking of the simple faith? Reading the letter did bring me anger and sadness. How can it be allowed for one to railroad so many? What is the power? How can so many be so blind?
    But I've been asking these questions for about 7 years or so ago since I left the "church". Keep those Bibles cracked open and read prayerfully. The answers are not in the Greetings of Peace, or any book printed other then the Bible. We have to let God show us the truth. Enough from me. It will be interesting to watch the fallout from all of this.

  28. Well, I know Bob...my dad is a former FALC minister (he was one of those that was "targeted" for removal). Bob and his wife have come over to talk to my parents when I was there. My dad actually send me that letter to me. I know that Bob did in fact write it. Like I said, some tough things to read, especially for people still in the church...but sometimes, truth hurts. My prayers are with those people.

  29. All I can say to every warring
    faction above is:

    GROW UP !

    Read comments by Troll listed
    under Food and Fables which

  30. Well, I think its obvious from the article that some of these people were targeted victims. Should they just stand there while they're getting shot at? Put yourself in their position for a moment...

  31. Dear BH and MTH, regarding preparation in times of possible turmoil:
    It brought to mind a piece I heard on NPR recently interviewing Richard A. Clarke, former National Security Council official and author of Against All Enemies. I came across an article by Fred Kaplan and here are some highlights: Clarke worked for the last four presidents as a nonpartisan analyst and terrorism specialist. He resigned in Feb. 03. He's been interviewed on CBS 60 Minutes, PBS Charlie Rose, and NPR. According to Kaplan, Clarke wasn't just in the loop, he WAS the loop. He ran the "Principals Committee" Meetings. (He was later demoted by Condi Rice.) He urgently requested these meetings from the Bush Admin. but they did not take place until one week before 9/11. Contrast this to Dec. 1999 "when the Clinton White House got word of an impending al-Qaida attack on the LA International Airport and Principals Meetings were called instantly and repeatedly, every day or every other day...." Clarke says, "I'm not saying we could have stopped 9/11, but we could have at least had a chance."
    And therein lies the difference, to me. We need to put our faith and trust in those in power, but only if it is warranted, and only after we feel we have gotten enough information to do so. We need all members of society to be well-educated. Keep wondering and reading!

  32. The Purpose of this blog is to offer support and provide resources for the further study of laestadianism. Maybe we should get a seperate posting going for this FALC issue...I'm guessing a lot of people will be asking questions.

  33. Well, I'm asking a question. Is the letter written by "Bob" available? I don't think you need a seperate blog for this issue. It's a reflection of what the entire history of this church has been.

  34. Anonymous 6:19, the letter by Bob Pieti is available here. You will need to join the Yahoo group, if you haven't already done so, to view the page. Click on the link "Cokato_FALC_and_Grace_Apostles.pdf" It's a fairly large file (0.3MB), so give it some time to download.

    I think what Anonymous 1:25 meant is that it might be helpful if Free2bme chose to create a post on the FALC issue on this blog (extoots).

    If Free2bme is willing to touch a very charged issue in the hope of helping FALCers as they search for healthy faith, I second Anonymous 1:25's suggestion. It appears to me that the FALC is splitting under the weight of many pathologies that we have already discussed as being all too common in Laestadian history--exclusivism, Groupianity as opposed to Christianity, and personal egos/grudges.

    I pray this time of turmoil within the FALC leads to the shedding of those Laestadian pathologies and a resurgence of healthy faith.

  35. Many Trails Home11/15/2005 01:02:00 PM

    Here is a Taize song/chant, the words of which I think are particularly soothing in these trying times.

    Listen to my heart,
    Hear the words unspoken in the longings of my life,
    The sighings of my soul.
    Listen to my heart.
    Let your quiet presence calm my darkest thoughts,
    And still my voice.

    Taize services are candlelight, ecumenical services featuring song and prayer. The songs are sung repeatedly, over and over, calming the mind and, I think, soul.

  36. curiosity killed the cat11/15/2005 08:58:00 PM

    Another example of "laestadianism gone wrong."


    Follow this link to an article on four laestadian brothers charged with over 100 robberies in southwest Finland. True to the laestadian tradition, they did not drink or get into any other serious trouble. There were 11 children in their family, and what little money they did get from their child funds their father used to drink and whore away from their home. Follow the links to related articles on these brothers. Upon being psychologically tested, they were found to be completely subservient to their father, as was their mother. When the father did return he ate all the food in the home, citing, "A mouse has the hunger of a mouse, whereas the elephant has the hunger of an elephant." Apparently the father also did not allow the mother to work nor for the family to receive any welfare money with the exception of the children's funds all Finnish children receive regardless of household income. The brothers testified that they stole only to support their family, but later their crimes became more elaborate and they used the money for a boat and a landrover.

  37. About the "brothers Dalton" criminals... It's basically a sad story of a seriously mentally disturbed (schizophrenic) man and the misery his family had to go through. The fact that this man and his wife had roots in a Laestadian group (Älvgren group; leeviläiset; http://www.teolinst.fi/luennot/jt000308.html) has little to do with their boys turning into criminals. Their farther compelled the kids to stay home instead of going to school, none of the family had a job, the farther refused to receive any help from social security / welfare officers. The children had to beg. They survived by eating berries and food found from junk yard. So, no wonder the boys ended up robbing banks and gas stations.

    A popular Finnish movie was inspired by this story:

    However, by just watching the movie one gets severly skewed view of the tragedy. Seems to me "curiosity killed the cat" got some of his information from the (mostly fictious) movie.

    These boys are hard cooked criminals, not heroes as the media wanted to present it. Reading the collection of their interviews is highly recommended - Seppo Porvali: Daltonit (only available in Finnish, I guess)

  38. curiosity kills the cat11/16/2005 06:43:00 AM

    Curiosity says...

    There is a movie? Wow. I did not know that. I got the information online from the Helsinki online English paper. I followed several links and read these articles. I would assume the biggest paper in Finland (sorry can't spell it) would have been somewhat accurate? Yes, one of the articles did refer to the father's mental illness problems. Obviously the schitzophrenia is not the fault of Laestadian belief systems. But I would say that the actions of the mother are indicitive of the way may laestadian wives and mothers act. Total obediance to their husbands regardless of what the outcome is to their children. I've seen laestadian women remain married to drunkards who don't work, philanderers, child sex abusers, physical abusers, etc. all in the name of their faith. I believe it ends up impacting their children in such a negative way that divorce would have been preferable. I'm not a proponent of throwing away every marriage in which a spouse has problems, but their are limits! The children and their safety and well-being should always come first. It reminds me of the dysfunctional laestadian family in "Popular Musik of Vittula" novel and film, in which one of the older sons literally forces his mother to quit playing the insipid martyr, get herself a job, and stand up for her family instead of cowering on the floor being completely subservient to their alcoholic husband/father. He literally throws a cold wateron her face to "wake" her up! There is a complacency among women who totally accept the laestadian way of marriage, you just hang in there and work like a dog but don't have to make any tough decisions. That might work if you have a strong and able husband. If you have one like Isak in "Vittula" or like the schitzophrenic father in the true to life "Euro Dalton Gang" in southwest Finland, you have a recipe for disaster!

  39. Growing up, there was a special little Finnish-American tongue-twisted my siblings and I made up. We used to say this as fast as possible and then laugh so hard we were rolling on the floor of our station wagon. Try saying this as fast as you can several times consequetively. They were all names of our older relatives.

    "I know Eino, do you know Eino?"

    "I know Ina, do you know Ina?"

    "I know Aino, do you know Aino?"

    I still get a chuckle of of doing this, and have even shared it with my kids, who do not get as much fun out of it as we did.

  40. Could not post on FALC site
    so will do so here.

    To put the FALC-Grace dispute in
    perspective, consider your
    blessings this year as you pon-
    der the following brutal Global

    *Every 10 seconds ,3 children
    die from preventable causes.

    *As many as 113 million do not
    attend school.

    *More than one billion people
    lack access to clean drinking

    *More than two billion people
    are without adequate sanitation

    *More than two billion people
    live on less than $2 per day.

    Michigan Tech Newsletter:
    International Sustainable
    Engineering Initiative

  41. Dear Troll,
    Are you a Michigan Tech alum? If so, what year? Interesting facts from there. I guess I'm surprised that they're involved in a sustainable initiative.

  42. Many Trails Home12/29/2005 05:47:00 PM

    Here's to sustainability. I personally feel a rising sense of panic when I consider what kind of world / life my (potential) grandchildren are likely to inherit. It will be interesting to see what the energy situation evolves to this winter. I hate to sound gloomy, but one of these days the "bill" will come due. It won't be pretty. And priorities will suddenly stand in stark relief. MTH

  43. I know many, many Laestadian wives that are not at all subservient to thier husbands, they are total equals. I think that the ones who stay in the situations mentioned, do so because a) they have many kids, and b) they usually marry young, so (usually) have no idea how to support the many kids.