"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Amazing Grace

Saturday, June 27, 2015

Amazing Grace


Did you know this hymn was written by an English clergyman once involved in the Atlantic slave trade?

Was Amazing Grace sung in your Laestadian church?

35 comments:

  1. Thanks, Karl. I understand it was removed from the OALC repertoire.

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  2. Really!? Do you know what their reasoning was?

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  3. I don't. Perhaps someone else does? Here's an old post that mentions it.

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  4. It seems to me that as a kid it was in the hymnal, but somewhere along the lines it was removed (LLC)
    Unbeliever

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  5. I seem to recall that it had been added to the OALC hymnal about the time I left the church. I wouldn't know what's happened since. On a related note, are the old Finnish hymns still in the OALC hymnal? It's kind of sad that when the occasion calls for them (especially funerals it seems), nobody knows them anymore. When I was growing up, I think every kid in church knew "Hengensä antoi" and "O Jumalan Karitsa" by heart, whether they spoke a word of Finnish or not!

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  6. It was a hymn in the late 70's- I hope that is still is..

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  7. This post reminds me of a discussion some were having about Fanny Crosby who wrote about 8000 hymns and songs. I remember one Laestadian woman commenting that Crosby, 'might have experienced something' because of the words she used in her songs. Notice the 'might have' insinuation. In other words since Crosby was a Baptist instead of a Laestadian with a last name of Kotti her Christian faith was in jeopardy. I recall some saying that the church should only use the old Finnish songs since they came from the 'heart' of the movement. What many do not realize is that many of the old Finnish hymn's tunes actually came from local worldly folk songs in Scandinavia in the 1800's. The Laestadian song writers needed tunes for their words so they handily borrowed local folk tunes from that time period to set their words to music. I think the Laestadian merely slowed down the tempo of the music to give it a more religious flavor. Old AP

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    1. Part of the church mythology has been sometimes giving people in the past the "benefit of the doubt" that they might have been believers, but would not apply to people today. I have heard it said that certain historical figures ranging from "Joan of Arc" to the writer of the book Pilgrim's Progress were believers, but would they today, allow even a rival sect to be considered saved?

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    2. Punahilkka, you said, "would they today, allow even a rival sect to be considered saved?" The truth is NO with a few exceptions such as Zion Lutheran Church (ALC) in Hancock for example. Personally, where I would greatly differ from most modern day Laestadians is in the understanding of new birth. From my personal experience and from my reading of the Bible and Luther and Laestadius' writings about the new birth, a true Christian new birth is akin to a supernatural experience where Christ somehow enters a person through faith and it transforms that person into a new being who has a life focus viewed through Christian lenses. It is definately not an intellectual experience. In contrast, I recall that a Laestadian new birth was considered to be when a church pronounced some one's sins forgiven in Jesus' name and blood and that person became a regular attendee of the services. In other words, the modern day Laestadian conversion has a certain method to it just as Catholics, Mormons and others also have an institutionalized way whereby proselytes go through some conversion procedures and then they were accepted as a Christians by the denomination and all outsiders are excluded from salvation. All dogmatic groups basically have some type of codified conversion process and they all have similar exclusionary characteristics. But I am not the final word on any of this.....overall most Laestadians seem content with their place in life and in their circle of friends and most seem to be living 'clean' lives. I sometimes wonder if I was just an outlying malcontent when I left. Now knowing the big picture of things, if I rejoined the movement I would take any Laestadian dogmatic teachings with a grain of salt. Old AP

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  8. Old AP, I would certainly not think of you as an "outlying malcontent". I sense you are just someone who didn't agree with much of what was professed -- as I was. I would like to meet you someday and see if our paths have crossed. I do agree that most Laestadians are good people, trying to make it through life in the best way they know. Some are probably too easily led by individuals who have ulterior motives -- whether those are power issues, or inadequacy issues, or whatever. Even amongst those, I believe most are living what they believe, not through any malevolent design, but because that is where God has chosen their understanding to be at the moment. I think many silently question, but in weighing the alternatives, have chosen the path they are on -- and that's their right, as long as they don't hurt others.

    I have found in extensive travels around the world, including a lot of the Muslim dominated parts, that most people are good people, doing the best they can. On a recent trip to Abu Dhabi, one of my hosts took me to see the Grand Mosque. We discussed religion frankly and honestly, and had a delightful time. When I was asked what I thought of the mosque, I replied that it was most definitely a house of God, filled with believers. Most Christians do not know that the Muslims recognize and honor Jesus as a prophet, just not as the Son of God. While I accept what they believe, I of course believe differently, and that was accepted as well.

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  9. How can you visit a mosque as a Christian, and agree with them that, yes it was"most definitely a house of God filled with believers". That's as much of a fairy tale as Laestadians saying that they are the only true church....we are going to account for our words....Beku

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    1. Sorry you feel that way. That's only a tiny step away from the Laestadians saying they are the only Christians that will survive.Sounds as if what you believe is that only your particular brand of Protestantism is correct. Wait...what about the Catholics? They are Christian but not Protestant. Are they OK in your eyes, or are they on the slippery slope to hell as well?

      I don't ascribe to the Laestadian or any other group's mode of "My way is the only way, and the rest of you are going to hell." I choose to believe that God has given different people different ways to believe and worship him. I'm certainly not going to condemn every Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or Protestant that doesn't believe the way I do to hell -- I just don't have that authority.

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    2. I like what cvow says. If only more believers would GO OUT in the world and be bridges of love, rather than stay behind walls as gatekeepers of judgment, imagine how much peace could blossom.

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    3. I like what cvow says. If only more believers would GO OUT in the world and be bridges of love, rather than stay behind walls as gatekeepers of judgment, imagine how much peace could blossom.

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  10. Is it fair to tell the Muslim, you're okay, we are all good people, when you know what the Bible has to say. Is it fair for the Laedtadia movement to teach we are the "heaven owners", when they know what the Bible has to say? No. Nobody get's to know the truth.only trusting in Jesus can save you....Beku

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    1. Are you aware that Christians, Muslims, and Jews are all "people of the book", with common roots to Abraham?

      I also do not know of any place where the Bible instructs anyone to condemn others. Jesus was not a Christian -- his followers became known as Christians. Jesus was a Jew to his death. How do you get around that one?

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  11. Yes, the Christians,Jews, and Muslims, look to Abraham as their Father,that they have in common. But neither the Muslims or the Jews accept Jesus as the Messiah who died on the cross for the ,forgiveness of the sin's of the whole world, that's the gospel, and preaching the gospel, does'nt condemn anyone, and does'nt require a person to change church's,it's just saying, believing in Jesus is the only way to the Father and heaven.
    Anyway, I don't want to contend, thanks for letting me post..-.Beku.

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  12. Beku, I have talked to Moslems before and they will acknowledge that Christians are people of the book but they only consider Jesus as a prophet and they DO NOT accept his deity or his claims to be the Messiah. I was also surprised that they still have a hatred of Isaac and towards Jacob in particular. So why do they attack Christians? The reason is they are violent towards Christians and/or Western countries is due to our support of Israel and Zionism. Fundamentalist Moslems believe that they are obligated to fight for oppressed Moslems even if they live in different countries. They also believe that Christians and Jews should tithe Moslems 10% of their income and then the Moslems will leave them alone. Some good intentioned bridge builders seem to want to connect Christianity somehow with Islam....but I have found that to be realistically to be impossible Beku. There is no way to heaven except through saving faith in Christ. Moslems will make the same claim about Mohammed but the biggest outward difference is that Christians state that a person must die to oneself spiritually and be born again in Christ. In contrast with Islam they are taught that those who oppose Islam must be physically killed unless one submits to the teachings of Allah in the Koran. So there really is no 'common ground'. Old AP

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    1. I was tempted to delete this thread as it contains opinions of Islam that are, simply put, racist BS. Please go here for info a brief review of how Islam forbids terrorism.
      You know your God is too small when you use him to justify hatred.
      We know that Christians constantly act in ways that contradict Christ's Great Commandment and we should not be surprised that this hypocrisy occurs in other religions.
      It does not surprise me that many Christians (even a few Laestadians) decline to judge people of other faiths. They have pondered what it really MEANS to follow Christ, to fulfill that Great Commandment.
      Peace to you all.

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    2. Free, It is interesting how you seemed to have adopted American political correctness by trying to shut down other's opinion via jumping onto the charges of 'racism' and then trying to denigrate opposing opinions as 'bs'. In my case I have gotten my information about Islam straight from numerous Islamists and not from some sugar coated apologist. Facts about Islam, or any other religion for that matter, does not equate to hatred. True, not all Moslems advocate violence but many of them do or at least it is quietly 'understood' to be acceptable. Putting Islam on the same level as Christianity is basically a 'Universalist Church' type of understanding but it has no basis in either religion's actual theology. Old AP

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    3. Old AP, I am not shutting down your opinions, clearly. I welcome facts, but not hate speech. Saying Muslims are taught to kill nonbelievers is hate speech. If you can find context important in the Bible, which has its share of bloody passages, why not the Koran? Pope Francis, hardly a "sugarcoated apologist for Islam" rightfully cautions Christians against equating ANY religion with its worst elements. He has also apologized for the church's role in the bloody colonization of native peoples, and called for governments to address poverty as a root cause of terrorism. As for universalism, it indeed can be found (just as its opposite) in every religion. We not only get to pick and choose, we can't avoid it. For humanity's sake if not our own, let's pick the vision of that socialist Jew who said love transcends tribalism, not the wrathful, revenge-seeking Jehovah.

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  13. Old Ap, You got that right, there is nothing in common between Christianity and the Muslims, but the more that is known of their religion, it seems that their so called, saviour, who they call their "mahdi", will be doing things that the "Antichrist" of the Bible is going hto do. I personally believe that they are the same individual.
    All Muslim nations do not have a "bloodline" to Abraham, but the Arab nations do. God promised Abraham and Sarah a child who was to carry the promised seed, that would be Jesus, the saviour, but, you know the story, mankind did not wait on God, Ishmael was born to Sarah. That,s where the Arabs come into the picture, They claim Abraham as thiertheir Father,and Ishmael as their father.The Arabs reject the claim,that God's seed came thru Issac and Jacob.
    Isn't that some what like what the Laestadian movement has experienced, the rejection of others because they believe the spirit must be passed on, and I know from experience, that the spirit is received by faith, by believing in Jesus. God's plan is fool proof, who can stop a person from believing in Jesus and getting saved....Bible history is somewhat complicated, I'm not saying that I got all the details right....Beku..

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    1. "I know from experience, that the spirit is received by faith, by believing in Jesus. God's plan is fool proof, who can stop a person from believing in Jesus and getting saved...."

      This is out of the frying pan into the fire... Why, do people insist that their PERSONAL experience applies to every person in the whole world.

      If you know something "for a fact" about matters of the spirit and the heart, that applies to one person - you. Nobody else, and to say otherwise
      is spiritual arrogance.

      Hermes

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  14. I work with a large number of Muslims, refugees from various countries including Bosnia, Syria, Iraq. I have had to learn about Islam to effectively work with them. The extremists pick and choose passages from the Koran to justify their actions, just like fundamentalist extremists from other faiths do. Considering that the jihadists are a small fraction of the totality of people who claim to follow islam, it seems absurd to paint them all with the same brush. Saying that they are taught "that those who oppose Islam must be physically killed unless one submits to the teachings of Allah in the Koran." is simply and provably false, unless you qualify it by saying that this is what the jihadist extremists teach. Otherwise it is simply ignorant commentary of the sort that Laestadians engage in to describe the teachings of other faiths.
    Believing that God made humans in his image and likeness, but then believing that his spirit is incapable of acting outside the boundaries of a particular church or faith tradition seems to make God and his spirit very small...but that is what we do. God is like us, supports our political beliefs, probably looks like us...he is a small god, made in our image....that seems to be most people's image of God.
    Unbeliever

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  15. Thank you, Unbeliever and Free. That's the point I was trying to make. I personally believe in the salvation of Jesus Christ -- and that is what God has granted me the grace to believe. However, I do not believe that God does not have plans for the rest of his huge creation as well. I'm not privy to those plans, so I'm not going to try to pass judgement on anyone or advise God on the subject. I know a lot of wonderful people of many faiths -- and many that are "unchurched" -- and believe that God has a plan for them as well. Condemning these folks because they are not Christian seems to me to be only a very small step away from the Laestadians condemning anyone who isn't a member of their own personal subgroup or sect of that group.

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    1. I find it ironic that many ex-Laestadians condemn their old church for their exclusivist thinking, then turn around and espouse virtually the exact same view regarding all non-Christians.

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  16. Talk about dancing around the truth and not embracing it, If Jesus said I am the truth and the way , and also said, the Father and I are one, and nobody comes to the father except thru Me, and He said, speaking of himself', narrow is the gate that leads to Life, and wide is the way that leads to destruction.
    Why not accept God's salvation just as He offers it?...That is by believing in Jesus alone....Matt

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    1. Hmmm...and do you know for certain that he is not speaking to other faiths through their traditions? See, the thing is Matt, I don't think most of the people who come here are interested in someone proselytizing to them (sorry y'all, I really shouldn't speak for you).
      See, the truth I believe is that if there is a God, and I believe there is..we as humans do not know what he\she is thinking...and any attempts we make to explain God, to describe God, would by definition fall short. So we refer to God as He and as Father...but those are human constructs. I certainly don't want to say that other people who recognize and worship God are damned. The original statement that started this current conversation had to do with whether or not they were believers? (Muslims). The fact is that the Muslims, Jews and Christians all worship the same God. I have never heard any preacher...even Laestadian ones say that the Jewish people do not worship the same God as Christians...despite the fact that they do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God..One with the Father. Yet people use the same argument to "prove" that Muslims do not worship the same God. They consider the old testament prophets to be prophets of God...the same prophets recognized in the old testament...but of course, you know more than they do about what god they worship. Sorry - that's Laestadianism in it's other name...Fundamentalism.
      Unbeliever

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  17. Well one thing we can all be thankful for, God is fair, God doesn't take away our rights,and that's what this generation insists upon. God gives us a right to believe in Jesus and get saved, and He gives us a right to complain about the consequences if we don't.....Matt

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    1. I'm relieved to hear God is fair, unlike his portrayal in the Bible. Whew. So I won't be infinitely punished in a lake of fire for the finite "crime" of being unconvinced of his existence.

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  18. Not convinced? Not to worry. God is able to convince. If God so chooses to use his little finger and cause a world wide crisis, there would be a ,whole lot of convincing going on, but there would be a ,bright side, then there would be reconciling going on between man and God,and between hingfamilies, that would be a ,good thing, for everyone. Including broken up Laestadian and Apostolic Lutheran families.
    Give God a chance, maybe something will happen real soon.--..Matt

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    1. My mind is always open, Matt.

      BTW, if September comes and goes and nothing happens with this blood moon nonsense, will you admit you were wrong?

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  19. Of course I will admit I was misinformed, this years blood moons may be a sign, but they are not the blood moon and darkened sun that happens later on in revelation.
    There are at least 100 million. Or more people that believe in God's Schmita year, that's when God re.leases things, sort of.like cleaning house, The schmita year ends on Sept 13, what if the 100 million people who believe would sell their stocks before the 13th, like, this week and next, we would have a market crash even before God get,s involved.
    Anyway I know you all are tired of all this and so am I. I won't bother you about this anymore, thanks for being patient......Matt

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