To start things off, here's a question from a reader:
I was wondering if anyone has any idea what the reasons were for the split in the OALC church in Minneapolis in the early 70s.
"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner"
Probably for the same reason there was a split in the Alc last year in the Carolinas, preachers majoring in the minors......
ReplyDeleteDo you mean the oalc split , or when the FALC was kicked out in 1973 from the llc since they believe that if you fall into a sin , that it does not mean that you are automatically going to Hell . That everyone is weak in there own way and that we depend on Gods grace day by day to help us keep the faith, and that it is impossible to confess absolutly every sin by name , that we should only confess the ones that bother us
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I was going to ask if anyone knew what split the Apostolic Lutheran Church on Hopkins Crossroad in Plymouth MN was from, but I looked at their website and they appear to be Rauhan Sana. I listened to a sermon by Elmer Ylineimi on the history of the Laestadian movement and all of the splits dating back to 1908. I found it pretty interesting and can't imagine hearing anything like it in the FALC, all the other splits would probably be grouped in with "the world". I guess they are more free to talk about it since they appear to accept all Laestadians as Christians.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.plymouthapostolic.org/palc/2008_Conv/Entries/2008/7/12_Elmer_Yliniemi_History_Part_1.html
Plymouth
How people went about learning the stuff they should have learned in early adulthood without making a spectacle of themselves- how to dance/move their body, suggestions for alcohol trying/tasting, developing a social network outside of church, etc. It is awkward to learn these later in life in order to be socially at ease in work/other situations.
ReplyDeleteCaterpillar
Caterpillar, the trick in my view is to let others know that you have lived under a rock for x number of years, and are about to make a spectacle of yourself. Nobody expects visitors from a foreign country to know our language and customs, and once they realize you are a visitor "to the rest of the world," they will take great delight in teaching you. As few people recognize "Laestadian," just say "it was like Amish, without the buggies." Everybody knows of the Amish.
DeleteYou will also discover that many others have analogous feelings of being a foreigner, even if they have lived here all their lives. Embrace the awkward! Take yoga, dance lessons, go skinny dipping, and learn to be in your body by being in your body. As for alcohol, go to a not-crowded bar, tell the bartender you are a novice (they LOVE novices) and would like a tasting menu. Stop before you fall off the stool.
Social networks are more difficult, but volunteering is a great way to start one. Pretty soon you'll be on so many call lists, you'll be a butterfly, craving solitude. Good luck!
Thank you! :) Caterpillar
Delete@anonymous, I don't think the falc was kicked out (they kept the name) the aalc/llc was the group that left. So who really are the heretics? The whole thing is silly. -nwponderer
ReplyDeleteTrue the LLC had changed there name and changed there preaching to be more law-minded , ONE of there ministers said that it was a sin to have a broken tv in your garage.that is definatly not how anybody i know believes in the FALC .I dont know who you are but i think you have more in common with us who are in the FALC than you probably know . Everything is not black and white and we have to hope that Gods will be done, and we as humans dont always know what is best for us . But God will help all of his elect , I was on here around 07 and may of said some things that were incorrect because of my mental illness , But just maybe there was a reason for that,I just dont know , My hope is that we can ALL COME INTO THE unity of the Spiret and be brothers and sisters in faith , That is my Prayer .
DeleteWhat you fail to understand, and what is so spiritually offensive, is that Christians already are brothers and sisters in faith, not just if they are members of the FALC. I just met a woman raised Baptist in the south, and guess what, their congregation believes that they are the only true Christians too, just like all these splinters of Laestadianism. As a former FALC, even without intense family ties left behind, that whole, "you are not a Christian, i.e. saved, if you are not a FALC" still remains a bee in my bonnet after all these years free from the hypocrisy (t.v. bad...internet good, mascara bad...curling hair good...trumpets in church bad...organ in church good, kids going to a family approved pg movie together bad...Kyds staying out till 2a.m. smoking, chewing and being sexually active good...absolutely mind numbing).
DeleteLast year I caught a skunk in a live trap then after the skunk was curled up and sleeping I snok up and lifted the gate with a long stick and the skunk was free to go. But when he awoke he stayed in the trap for the rest of the day not knowing he was free,I finally threw food scraps to entice him to the open gate. I was in the Laestadian, Apostolic system for 40 years in the same condition not being able get free. Until God felt sorry for me and the Spirit told me, go ahead get your mind off your church and listen to the message and do it....This is the message.....BELIEVE YOUR SINS FORGIVEN IN JESUS NAME AND BLOOD.....I listened to the message and I was able to believe and I was saved. At the same time I was directed to Isaiah 9:6 and it was explained that all of the titles that Jesus has make up his one name, it became easy to believe in his name. Try it get your mind off your right church and get your mind on the NAME OF JESUS.and just believe in him...........
ReplyDeleteIt is too bad that everyone points fingers at the others and labels them heretics. As former FALC I am curious about the 73 split and what really happened, anyone know?
ReplyDelete~NMY
I was in the Falc in 1973 that's when satans axe fell and he split the congregations in two. Some got left on one side others ended up on the other. The problem was the same then as it is now, people have about a 5% knowledge of the Bible. That includes the preachers.The bible says my people perish because of the lack of knowledge In 2nd. Peter it says Grace and Peace be multiplied unto you by the knowledge of God the Father and our Lord Jesus.And God uses a Big multiplier.
ReplyDeleteIt also say's the widom of this world is foolishness with God , May God grant his children with HIS wisdom thru his word. Because the enemy will always atack from the left and from the right and from within.Only the Holy Spiret can open up his word and give knowlege that is needed in his time
DeleteSince I don't believe in Satan, I think the explanation is much more mundane. As it has been since the first split in the late 1800's and every split after, it was just a matter of (cult of) personality conflicts.
DeleteFor many years I have been recovering from dead religion. Then I heard a preacher say something that I never heard.He said there are two groups of people in this world. Jews and Gentiles (non Jews). And us Finns are gentiles, so it is our responsibility to find salvation and the gospel from the writings of the Apostle of the Gentiles, who is the Apostle Paul. God revealed salvation by grace thru faith only in Pauls writings, God revealed the church as the body of Christ only in Pauls writings. PAULS writings start at Romans and about the next 10 books.pauls writings belong to us gentile Finns....Finski
ReplyDeletePsst...Paul's writings belong to all Christians, not just Finns. I mean just listen to yourself when you (and so many others like you) say such things. The Amish believe "it's" just for them, the Mormons think "it's" just for them, the Seventh Day Adventists think "it's" just for them, the Muslims think, the Buddhists think, the OALC thinks, the FACL thinks, the LLC thinks...I mean, really, sit and think it through. This is the bible, God's Word, given to all who have heard the Holy Spirit speak his Grace of Salvation through the death and resurrection of His son Jesus Christ to them...can you seriously believe, I mean for real, that the "gentile Finns" descended from a botanist in Finland long ago have the only stronghold on the teachings of the bible and thus salvation? That blows my mind.
DeleteWow, this is an interesting string!
ReplyDeleteI've heard many versions of what happened during splits in the 70's, but everyone tells it from their own jaded point of view. I would love to hear about it from an un-biased (or as close as we could get,) source. I have heard the LLCers say that groups split off from their church, even when they were the ones that physically left. I have heard the OALC say that certain people were ordained by God and certain ones who weren't that were trying to impose their will and not God's. The whole issue is so convoluted. I actually think that it had something to do with ministers coming over from Finland, the correspondence that was going back and forth in the form of letters and rare visits---and how the new country wasn't stacking up like the old country. Really, truly, I believe it came down to personality conflicts between the preachers. That is what happens when there is so much left up to interpretation instead of biblical "fact." Maybe Ed knows if any physical documentation from any involved party exists. I am aware of the who, what, where, when, and the how but not the why. Enlighten me, please!
-Pebbles
p.s. Good luck, Caterpillar!
One thing that I have read that gave me a basic understanding was EOP, Section 4.1.6. (I can't input the link?)
ReplyDelete-Pebbles
The Kingdom of God is within you, the Kingdom is not flesh and blood ,it does not have a earthly address, the Kingdom of God cannot be measured in a greater number then the nearest believers soul. WHY? CLAIM that your group is above any other. Your head is in heaven just praise and thaank Jesus.........
ReplyDeleteBeth writes in her blog; It is the blind eyes on evil that drives us nuts and the dismissing of wrong doing. Wise words. But isn't that exactly whats wrong with the Laestadian movement churches,the preachers are enabled to teach docttrines of men thus leading people astray,because people go along to get along without really reading the book.
ReplyDeleteIn the news lately: Two bad acting people shot to death. One threw popcorn at another and got shot to death, the other played so called 'thug music' to loudly in public and he got shot to death. Why do so many people act so badly in public? Don't they think there are other bad actors near by? Like the two shooters that were emboldened because they were carrying a gun. Four bad actors two dead two going to prison, 30 years ago you never heard of road rage or the craziness of today. I think at it's best civilization was a quarter in thick, today it's about the thickness of a eggshell,like one that needs more oyster shells... Farm boy
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure what you mean by the "thickness" of civilization, but I'd just like to point out that, statistically, we're living in a much safer (civilized?) world.
Delete"In fact, crime rates are lower across the board than in the past. Today, the murder rate is half what it was in 1980. The rate for forcible rape was nearly 43 incidents per 100,000 in 1992. Today it is 27. The rate of robberies reached a high in 1990 with 639 incidents per 100,000 people. Today, the rate is nearly half that. Non-violent crime, such as burglary or theft, also has declined. The number of burglaries fell from 3.7 million in 1980 to 2.2 million." (Deseret News, citing FBI statistics, July 2013).
EVERY generation thinks we're living in the End Times or something and things were much better X years ago. Nostalgic nonsense. This is an amazing time to be alive, and I'm glad I wasn't born 30 years earlier than I was.
I would rather have lived in the horse and buggy days, for instance if you drove drunk the worst that could happen is that you fell of the horse, now you might kill someone and ruin both families. Also years ago if a young person was continually rebellious he was given a choice, either jail or the army. Many men can thank the army that they did'nt stay bad.
ReplyDeleteLast week I heard a preacher give a anology that I think fits the Finnish churches. IN Africa there are people who trap and hunt monkeys for food. One way they catch them, they place the monkeys favorite food in a enclosed container,leaving just enough of a hole so the monkey can slip in his hand and grab the food. But when the monkey clenches his fist around the food to pull it out it will not fit thru the opening, so the monkey is trapped. And the next day the trappers come by and they got their monkey. They will not let go of food once they get a hold of it. We know the requirements of God, but we will not let go of our stuff that has no merit.
ReplyDeleteI'd like to see a thread asking how many people left because they feel their conscience led them to leave, that God's truth was not confined to whichever branch of Laestadians one come from, as opposed to leaving because you no longer believe. The old cliché is that sin leads one out of faith. My experience is that my Faith led me out of their church.
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Flora says: This thread is kinda weird--all over the place. I agree w/Pebbles. Conflicts about doctrine arose between preachers and they split into FALC and LLC. The doctrinal differences had to do with what is the church congregation (is it the physical congregation or the spiritual one), Peter's confession and believer's confession of sin, use of television and alcohol and leniency/strictness on those items, and a few others. I go between being amazed that they didn't work it out and just take care of matters/move on, and being amazed there haven't been even more splits because it is one of the only ways in these laestadian churches to solve problems because people aren't free to hash things out, nor are they free to be themselves. Pretty sad that there are so many little varieties of basically the same church because of the arrogant self-righteousness of man. And I do mean man, because women of course have no official say in any of this--most probably just wanted their families to stay together and see each other on Sundays...(Not that they'd run it any better if it was run by all women, which is my point) Anyway, there is more about the splits in Ed's books.
ReplyDeleteI am wondering why the LLC church members like to pat themselves on the back like they are so righteous and godly and so great just because they confess their sins to one another. I am wondering what about which makes amend's? They act like they're the only people that can confess something what does that really mean? They love to condemn every other person on the face of the earth it is so freaking annoying.
ReplyDeleteDude
The idea of amends is foreign to them. Forgive and forget is the old adage. After I got married and had some issues with my wife, I expected the old apology to end things, and she is like " you have to make amends.." I am like "amends? what is that, I say sorry, you forgive me, and we are done with it". Seriously, I had no clue.
DeleteUnbeliever
And I wonder why you alc ppl are so bitter yuk!
DeleteIt is worst then annoying and I agree many people leave because they have real faith and are not just there rooting for a team. And of course they will play their favorite Bible verse, they were with us but they left because they were not of us. And sing a mournful funeral hymn.
ReplyDeleteMany people have left the Laestadian movement over the years, some because they are not interested in things of God, others ran into various problems some of them Providential. If God calls you, He is going to get some word knowledge into you. When you are on the outside, you almost have to start paddling your own boat and read for yourself. I have heard the parable of the sower explained at least a hundred times from the pulpit. But one day I was given the thought, you have to be your own sower.
ReplyDeletePeter Nevala, who was a Laestadian preacher, compiled a collection of documents concerning "heresy" or schisms of American Laestadianism. The LLC published a book entitled "Unto This Day The Lord Hath Helped" which gives an account, however biased from a LLCer's perspective, about the various schisms throughout the past hundred years or so. Obviously, the book must viewed in the context of the writers beliefs, but I know that many letters between the various faction's "leaders" are included which should help the reader get a picture of what was in question at the time. I'm not endorsing the book as the end all be all just hoping to point you towards some possible literature. -The Ethnic Laestadian
ReplyDeleteReading this web page because a man I'm seeing is OALC. There is a funeral and I've been told to not be offended but he won't have time for me as his family comes first. I've known him for 9 months have never had a date outside my home, never been introduced to any of his family. My friends say I'm the best kept secret on the back burner. This is not looking good for any future with this man. We are both divorced and he feels like he should keep his marriage vows, his church has already told him he should never be allowed to remarry because he had committed a sexual offense and had went to prison. I said but you served your time to society and your church is a man made institution that I disagree with. need some insight here and words of wisdom. Am a christian and should have known better..What to do..
ReplyDeleteI'll tell you what I would do - RUN! Block his number, and then lose it. Unless, of course, you want to spend a lifetime wondering if this is all there is in life, wishing for something more, and wondering if you are going absolutely insane. He is already giving you the best that he can/will. It will get worse, not better. It's not the sexual offense--it's the divorce(s) and the church. For them, marriage is for life, marriage should stay within the members of the church. Unless you convert. And even then, it's doubtful things would change. The likelihood is that his family will never accept you, and you will always get treated like secondhand goods. You won't be considered part of the family. Are you willing to live your life sitting on the back shelf waiting for him to find time to sneak away to see you?
DeleteSpeaking of this sexual offense conviction--seriously, have you taken leave of your senses? Why would you deliberately choose to have this drama in your life? He may have done time, but how confident are you that he has dealt with his issues? Are you so certain that he will not reoffend?
The outcomes in your life are most likely determined by previous choices you made. Think about the outcomes you want and make the choices that are most likely to get you to those places. If you're dating a sexual offender, you should not be surprised down the road if he offends again. Wringing your hands and wondering how this could happen will not be productive. Losing his number and moving on would be much more likely to give you a better outcome. It's not your job to fix, rehabilitate, "save", or give him acceptance.
Now that I've gotten that out of my system, you are of course in no way obligated to listen. :o) I doubt anyone put a gun to your head and forced you to date this guy, and based on my past experiences, people will probably continue do whatever it is that they want to do...make your choice, either way.
Thank you to both replies, I know God always makes a way of escape. I feel from reading on this web thread about the browbeating that will take place at the funeral that he will feel such conviction for having a relationship with me that it will be an opportunity to mutually agree to end our relationship. Thank you both for such timely help and hopefully this incident will help others.
DeleteIMO- In 9 months-he hasn't taken you on a date, he hasn't introduced you to his family. Just on those two sentences alone-I would seriously rethink this relationship. If he cares about you he should be proud to take you out and be seen with you-not hiding you away, because you are a "dirty little secret." Is this a life you want looking into the future? Do you want to live as an outcast in your husbands future? Where he spends holidays with his family, and you with yours? What if you have children-do you want them growing up being shunned by a set of grandparents? If you have children now-do you want them to have to live with their step fathers parents treating them badly-cuz they probably will. Your kids-present and future-deserve better.
ReplyDeleteAs a divorced former FALCer, I understand the "Do not get remarried thing" all too well. That being said-my husband was an abusive man, and it was only a matter of time until he seriously injured or killed me. I was told REPEATEDLY the abuse was MY FAULT, and I needed to find a way to make it work. Finally a minister friend that was a cop, gave me the words that I needed to hear-"God doesn't want you dead. He wants you alive for your children. That gave me the courage to leave. It wasn't easy, nor popular with the church members. But it doesn't matter. Its my life. I am the one that has to answer to God, not them. Like you, shortly after my divorce, I dated a guy with a shady past. He had done time, not for sex crimes, but for murder. He was a motorcycle gang member-I had to ask myself if I wanted my kids exposed to that life style. Both the ones I had and any we may have had. The answer, altho I cared for him a great deal, was NO. I dont know what he did to be a sexual offender and get time-but I am sure it wasn't anything you need your kids or family exposed to. I agree everyone has a right to start over, have the past be forgiven etc-but-if it was for molesting kids-would you really feel safe with your kids around him? The neighbors kids? Nieces? Nephews?
Also-if he REALLY feels he should "Keep his marriage vows"-why is he dating you or anyone? Isn't that the same as having an affair? If he'll "Cheat" on an imaginary marriage, he'll probably cheat on a real one too.
You can do what you chose to do-but I think in your heart you know what to do-you said "Its not looking good for a future with this man." You know-its just finding the courage to do it. God has someone out there for you-but he'll never find you if you're with this guy. Somewhere there is someone that will take you out and treat you the way you deserve to be treated. You'll go out to dinners, on vacations, movies, for walks. He will be proud to be with you-and you with him. Just give it time. :)
Finski hear: The point I was trying to make was us Finns are Gentiles and not Jews. All of Pauls writings are addressed to the Gentile bellievers, Pauls writings are our mail,church mail. The twelve apostles were concerned more with converting the Jews so God would send Jesus back to begin his earthly kingdom, which will happen after the 7 year tribulation. Paul is the Church Apostle he is the only one that speaks of the rapture. The other Apostles deal with the tribulation because it is a Jewish affair the Church will be raptured before the tribulation...Matt
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