"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Mythbusters

Saturday, September 14, 2013

Mythbusters

In a recent dialogue here, two members of the LLC pushed back on common perceptions of Laestadianism. They do not feel brainwashed, or compelled to conform to church standards; they see their lifestyle choices (no music or movies, for example) as wholesome personal choices, and not at all a matter of salvation. They are not interested in foisting their choices on others.

That's cool. I'm glad they feel comfortable participating here.

We (and by we, I mean I) must remember that generalizations have exceptions, and any respectable discussion should address those exceptions, or it's just self-serving blathering, leading to an echo chamber that reinforces stereotypes instead of challenging us to grow. After all, it is far too easy, even in the multiverse of the internet, to isolate ourselves in ideological cocoons.

When I saw this article about the bullying of secular students by believers, I thought its list of myths seemed apposite to ex-Laestadians, and I've adapted it below. Let me say immediately that bullying happens by secular types against believers, too. It's a nasty phenomenon, among all groups, and facilitated by social media, sometimes with fatal results.

How we talk about others, in the home or outside of it, either contributes to peace or to conflict. Someone I admire once said:
Be kind whenever possible. It is always possible.
(In that vein, check out Ed's very personal post on his blog about a book called Faithiest, by a Harvard chaplain who is making bridges between believers and nonbelievers.)

Common Myths About People Who Leave the Church

  • They are just angry at god.
  • They worship the devil.
  • They have no morals.
  • They're leaving is the product of a personal tragedy.
  • They are arrogant.
  • They are all atheists.
  • They love sinning too much to give it up.

Anything you want to add to the list? Want to bust some myths about those who stay?

33 comments:

  1. I go by 'dude'.
    I have been around those of the 'kingdom' and have listened to the 'spoken word of God' on their podcasts out of Minnesota and Phoenix. The list above is something that is taught by 'god's servants' in the kingdom. These assertions are absolutely accepted and cannot be questioned. I feel pain and anger when hear these lay pastors talk about how messed up everyone who leaves the 'kingdom' is and how this spells doom. How can they actually believe that you have to physically attend their church to be accepted by God? Anyone like myself who has never been a member or worse yet a person who has left is going against God? Is this liberty? I didn't think it was possible to judge a persons motives but you can judge their actions. The close minded way they are is not attractive.

    If you don't go to their church:
    You can't go to any special functions
    No one asks or cares about how your walk with God is
    There is an eerie condemnation that you feel but no attempt by them to save you I mean they honestly look at you or more like through you as if your life has no significance at all because you are from the world
    You get to hold down the fort while everyone goes to services.
    Is this how Jesus was? He would treat the worst of the worst like old friends.

    ReplyDelete
  2. They also talk about the many temptations of the world like they are standing outside the chain link fence of an amusement park looking at all the fun but not allowing their flesh to partake even though they would give their right nut just to go on a ride without condemnation.

    Dude

    ReplyDelete
  3. There is definitely truth in what you say, Dude, but of course there are exceptions. I am invited to go to their special functions although my own family would not attend my wedding, and will probably skip my funeral, too.

    ReplyDelete
  4. @Dude, you hit the nail on the head.
    It's amazing how very few actually think with their mind that what they believe in or accept as the truth, actually challenge any aspect of what is preached. It's also very difficult to engage anyone in a discussion to challenge the beliefs based on principle or facts of contradictions within the bible and with what is preached.
    -Guy

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. When you are constantly reminded not to use reason and just accept the teachings of the holy spirit, its pretty hard to get anyone to really think about what they believe. They don't even understand it themselves.
      --NWPonderer

      Delete
  5. Dissecting and fully understanding the subtleties of Laestadianism is difficult unless one both grew up within its realms but then left and made a successful life outside the group. As I got older I began to realize that everything within my Apostolic Lutheran branch was very 'church centric' and that the truth was obscured in vagaries and esoteric meanings that by default obscured exactly what the church did believe. A typical viewpoint was that only those within the church were saved. When questioned about this a member might venture that perhaps there are other churches who also lay hands on and pronounce people's sins forgiven but that they have never heard of any other church that did this. What they are really saying is that for all intents and purposes there are no other saved people churches out there. The same kind of vague logic was used with regards to the 'sin list'. It always struck me as odd when I would see church members smoking and they were quick to chirp that, 'Laestadius smoked.' Eventually I realized that when it came right down to it the church members lives were totally surrounded from birth to death by other church members with no real contact or association with others outside the fold nor was there any real evangelical outreach. Hence, there was no higher level academic nor critical questioning of beliefs and doctrine nor questioning of commonly understood practices. When it came right down to it BELONGING TO THE GROUP was of PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE. It was my impression that the sin list was tailored to keep people in the church by vicariously teaching them that by being obedient to the sin list they were now acceptable to the group and through their obedience they were different from 'those worldly people'. In contrast to Laestadianism, I have met a number of conservative Mennonites whose outward dress and appearance is much more plain than that of most Laestadians. The biggest difference I noted was that most Mennonites did not seem to have the internalized legalistic fear of sin that I observed amongst Laestadians. Most Mennonites seemed to have a much more balanced concept of the 'universal church' based on faith in Christ and a much more evangelical outlook towards outsiders. Amongst the Mennonites I noted that they might not do some of the same things that some of the Laestadians objected to but the Mennonites did so because they felt it was 'better' that they avoided something whereas within Laestadianism something was avoided because it was 'wicked and sinful' or it was on the sin bucket list. Based on my conversations with members of each of the various Laestadian groups I would say that by and large they owe their continued existence by essentially remaining DIFFERENT and aloof from other conservative churches. By remaining different, with their own exclusive doctrine and bucket list of sin, they are able to psychologically shut out any outside beliefs that might challenge or be an improvement of the status quo. So given that belonging to the group is of paramount importance in the whole scheme of things, there should question as to why there is such severe condemnation and accusations against those who leave. After all, what if a person left and found another church that was more Biblically correct? "Then that might mean that we are not....which would mean egads!!!!" I guess you get the picture. Old AP

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

      Delete
    2. well I think the questioning is biblical and good at the Bible study sessions or "gathering" but what they are saying is if you ask outside a quiet humble meek spirit it will not strengthen your faith or other weak souls near u...so just putting my two cents worth

      Delete
  6. Here's another for the list. My Uncle (LLC) wrote a letter to one of my sister's calling her a "Sin slave of the Devil."

    ReplyDelete
  7. I find this topic a bit interesting-it is called myth busters, but who is to determine if what you say about the LLC is a myth or a truth? I do have my own personal response to some of the statements above, but it is rather long and drawn out (I hand wrote it-I think better that way) and I'm not sure if I will find the time (or if there is even interest here?) to shimmy it down to something short enough to include in these comments.

    In the meantime. My question is this: what does make you leave? If all the above reasons are completely myths (and some of them are quite far-fetched, I agree) what are the truths? Ultimately I believe you all left because of unbelief-that is, you no longer believe in the forgiveness of sins as preached by the church, but what lead you there?

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Perhaps that sins are not truly forgiven and forgotten in a sea of grace by other believers, but discussed in hushed tones? Or how about the actual sinners, which are often approached with rebuke in mind, instead of caring and concern? I would say that in my experience, I could not deal with the sheer hypocrisy of it all, so I left.

      Delete
    2. Here is why I left. There was no possible conclusion left to me, after exhaustive research, except that it simply isn’t true. Any of it.

      Delete
    3. How about why some sinners seem to be forgiven, accepted, and loved, while other sinners have to live with a cast shadow, gossip, and ridicule the rest of their lives? Why does it seem that those who are more easily forgiven and accepted back in the community seem to be those with strong families who stand behind them, are more upwardly mobile with nicer houses and better clothes and good looks? I observed it all silently for many decades until I realized that there were just those who could not fit, would not fit, and could not redeem themselves from whatever slip up they made, even if it happened in their youth, while others got a pass to sin and sin again, with even larger sins, and they were sometimes only reluctantly discussed if it all, and sometimes no rebuke was even given some of them if their social standing was high enough in the church. That's what I observed. I still believe, but until the believers in my church start treating one another more equally, I won't go.

      Delete
    4. Jat I would appreciate hearing more of your comments. I appreciate that you are willing to al least read this blog. I have heard the preachers saying that you should not listen or entertain thoughts or other resources because the are not from 'the kingdom' ( it pisses me off to no end to hear them condemn everyone else and congratulate eachother they are not like everyone of the world) I have first hand knowledge and have spent years and years around this element and I don't see humility or contrite people but rather more like a self absorbed arrogance like their poop doesn't stink.

      I don't think that salvation is something that can be lost like a coin. How can you ever truly have peace when you are trying to live under the law? How horrible it would be if i were to give my own child the idea that he could ever stop being your son because of something he did. God sais he would never leave us or forsake us. The prodigal son was in a pigs den and that is about as low as a Jewish boy can get but did he ever stop being a son? It drives me crazy how this church takes the gospel of grace and perverts it int a fall from grace. Did you know that you can have a personal relationship with Him?

      Dude

      Delete
    5. JAT....I left because my conscience told me that the church was wrong about a host of things...mostly having to do with the definition of who was a "Christian" and who was not.
      I did not leave because of the following myths:
      1. "too into alcohol or drugs"
      2. Unbelief in the forgiveness of sins, God's mercy and love, Christ's sacrifice or the promise of the Holy Spirit
      3. Loss of Faith (because my Faith is in God, not in a human construct)
      4. Unforgiven sin and a "hardened conscience"

      I left, because a still, small voice kept pricking my conscience, saying "this is not right, there is more", I left because the only love I observes was a pretty hard love, and it was not aimed at those outside. We, being made by God, in his image and likeness, should recognize God in those around us. Yet I grew up hearing contempt for outsiders...the only time there was a thaw in the glacial ice was if one thought that perhaps they might want to convert...then the love was shown...but not love for the sake of LOVE as commanded by God.
      The LLC I grew up with more resembled the Priest and the Levite in the parable of the Good Samaritan, than the Samaritan. (Which I think was the point of the parable....which when I think about it, is what the parable is all about.) I saw more love shown toward the hurting by people outside the LLC than I did inside.
      It is easy to see your fellow congregation member as your brother, but how about the "heretic" family, or the Catholic Family, or the Jew, or God help us, the drunk passed out on the street.
      "unbeliever"

      Delete
    6. That's a good question. What made me leave? For me, I finally had to start asking questions that I had for a long time, but never had the courage to ask. When I started asking questions, I realized it was more than questions. I simply did not believe many of the messages I heard. Once I voiced this out loud, it was determined that I was no longer a believer and the greeting of God's Peace was immediately withdrawn. At this point I felt like an outcast, so why would I show up? Anyways, the reason I left? The only answer I can think of is that God must have removed the holy spirit from me (just kidding). I really believe God is leading me to the truth and, unfortunately, the truth is different from what I was taught.

      Child of God

      Delete
  8. Excellent questions, JAT.

    To find facts about the LLC, one looks to evidence: doctrine, sermons, other texts, and the testimony of those with experience in the church. Of course there may be variations in belief between people and even in the same person asked on different days, or by different people.

    As for the truth about why people leave, I can tell you that after a lifetime of listening to exodus stories, the only thing they have in common is: they left. Some go after long "nights of the soul" wrestling with pangs of conscience that something just isn't right. Some have a lifetime of niggling doubts before they decide to seek the truth wherever it leads. Some want more active spiritual lives, e.g, helping those who are suffering in the world. Some lose all faith in God. Some have faith but feel like frauds, only pretending to believe the doctrine they inherited. Some may join a church that better fulfills them. Some are comfortable with the status quo but want a better life for their children, with friends of different races and beliefs. Some people leave because they lose trust in the authority of the church. Some were victimized by abuse. Some were forced out as "black sheep." Some found they were happier with their "worldly" relatives, church, or friends, and found no reason to continue as a square peg in a round hole. Some moved away and, after not attending for a long time, discovered they no longer missed it.

    The motives to leave -- practical, psychological, intellectual, or emotional -- vary widely, and it is possible that none of us know entirely why we left. Humans are notoriously self-deceptive, and motivation is complex. For example, while I THINK I left because I could not get satisfactory answers to my questions about exclusivism, I was also a lonely kid, and longed for community with "people like me." Other examples: the guy who left when he was not chosen to be a preacher, the woman who left when she fell in love with a "worldly" who was shunned by her family, the smart girl who was "sent away" when her parents feared she was a bad example to her siblings.

    So JAT, I think it is important to acknowledge that without deep knowledge of the person, our guesses about them are primarily projections of our own fears and desires. The best way to find out is to ask, listen, and humbly admit that the answer represents only the tip of the iceberg.

    (Incidentally, in conversations with exiles, the person-to-person forgiveness ritual is often given as the most appreciated aspect of the church. Some of us still practice it in some form, even if we no longer consider it a ticket to paradise.)

    I'll add one more myth to the pile:

    MYTH: Those who leave reject everything.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Phenomenal post, Free.

      To JAT, I hope you take the time to write your response. I've admired your willingness to consider others' beliefs and to comment in a thoughtful and polite manner.

      Delete
  9. Anonymous said, "I observed it all silently for many decades until I realized that there were just those who could not fit, would not fit, and could not redeem themselves from whatever slip up they made, even if it happened in their youth, while others got a pass to sin and sin again, with even larger sins, and they were sometimes only reluctantly discussed if it all, and sometimes no rebuke was even given some of them if their social standing was high enough in the church." Well said...I recall one speaker whom I believed to be a sociopath remained quite popular in many circles because he had such a "gift as a speaker". No one would call him out for what he really was despite the numerous whispers about him being a lecher. So there was no question in my mind that there was, "different strokes for different folks" depending on one's social standing. I saw many examples of the same kind of thought process depending on one's social standing. The only reason I add this to 'anonymous' comments is that these are the same groups of people that claim that they belong to the only church which is going to heaven. Old AP

    ReplyDelete
  10. Myth busters. A great topic. My post is a little off the original subject but never the less it goes under myth busters.

    The OALC claims that the elders are Gods profits and His voice is heard from swedish lapland because of a bible quote about a star and (I heard this directly from a preacher) "north star is directly over swedish lapland". THIS IS NOT TRUE. The north star is not over sweeden, norway or finland. It is only a jump south of the north pole. (Check for yourselves, its easy enough). it is amazing to me to watch when people from oalc church hear this or pronounce this as if it is a fact and proof that they are the chosen ones. To my knowledge no one has ever called them on this. It might seem trivial but when they repeat many of these "proofs" that are really easily proved to be false it adds up.

    Another one:
    when asked about the bible vs of "when 2 or 3 are gathered in my name there I am in the midst of them" and how this applies to "wordly christians", the oalc preachers answered that "wordlies don't pray in Jesus' name". This is also not true and it is easy to prove otherwise. All a person has to do is flip on a christian radio channel.

    There are many more teachings that can easily be proved to be myths but I am going to stop at this. And please know that I sure am not trying to attack people but only the myths.

    ReplyDelete
  11. Okay...here goes...Dude wrote a short list about the laestadian religions, and I mentioned I had some responses. I will do my response to each point as a separate post for fear of my writings being too long, and for conversation purposes about each thought. As I said, they are rather lengthy, so I hope everyone can bear with me here, and will be patient, even if they have no interest in reading them. I'm not sure how to go about doing this without seeming like I am belittling the perceptions or experiences of Dude within a Laestadian community. I'm really not trying to.

    His first point was that you can't go to "special functions" unless you are a member. I'm not sure which faction he has experience with, but as an LLCer, I have seen both "heretics" and "unbelievers" at weddings and funerals as well as attended such events for "heretics" and "unbelievers, as have my parents and my grandparents (at least one set). I would draw the line at participating as a "witness" or "bridesmaid" at a wedding outside the church because I personally wouldn't believe it was held before God, and therefore would be uncomfortable in the role, but I have seen it done before. As far as youth gatherings, special services and the like, no one will tell you that you can't be there (that I know of), in fact, it has been encouraged that you should invite 'unbelieving' friends to these events. You just might not feel comfortable, which will be addressed in another point....

    ReplyDelete
  12. Dude's next point is that no one asks or cares about your walk with God. I'd say, given our belief that as long as you don't believe the same way as we do, it doesn't matter how close your relationship with God is, why would we? Honestly, to me it seems kinder NOT to ask, then to say, "Oh, how is your relationship with God? Well, its not complete you know!" This way, we allow you to come to us if you are searching for a closer relationship rather than shoving in your face that we don't believe your relationship is 'right'. I am sorry if this makes you feel as though we don't care about YOU? If that's the case, what could we do to change this, without having to change our beliefs?

    P.S. Dude, yes, I DO know you can have a 'personal relationship' with God because I have one. I pray to Him. I lean on Him for strength and companionship. I feel His presence in my life and my activities. I just don't feel the need to tell everyone about it. To me, it's a private relationship. I do not want to push it on everyone because it is not FOR everyone (and no, I am not referring to 'chosen ones' here, but to those who would not be comfortable with this type of relationship with Him).

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. but which Jesus are you walking with ??? or having a personal relationship with?? the one in your head or the resurrected living son of God??? how can u be sure when u hiding from everybody about it?? thats why when two or more are gathered blah blah...that dont mean your not talking with Jesus.. i dont know ..u may..Jesus is with that buddy system thing but it doesnt say he is not in the midst in other situations and who knows it says other sheep i have not in this fold...anyway be blessed my friend

      Delete
  13. I am running out of time, will continue with this point-by-point response later. Again, I'm sorry, I feel like I am kind of 'taking over' the board here with so many posts at once, and I hope not to upset anybody by it, but I simply don't know how else to go about it.....

    ReplyDelete
  14. JAT-thanks that small bit of empathy is more than I have ever heard in all the years and years I have been around this. I believe with all my heart that once you are in you are in. God is not waiting up there with a taser and a record book waiting to see me fail so he can turn his back on me. I know this to be true for myself . If someone did approach me to ask about my relationship with Him (from this group) I would be utterly amazed. Not sure how I would feel but it's kinda like arguing whether the gold medal USA Olympic men's basketball team with Lebron and Kevin Durant would beat the 'dream team' with Jordan and Barkley. You can speculate all day but it's never going to happen. The truth from a human kindness perspective is that I feel like their lack of ability to connect at a deep level with others of different races and beliefs is tragic and they miss some of the most wonderful magic moments that could be. I believe that Jesus died for my sins and rose from the dead to settle the sin question forever and ever no matter what. I believe He does not make hard too hard of terms for those who honestly seek Him because He is good - I know because He has been so good to me and believe me if the people at the LLC could see my real self they probably could not bare to look because it would be to close to home. It hurts because I have grown to care for some and I see different levels of presence and living in the moment from each. Some are so far removed its strange but they don't seem to see a need to connect or are simply not aware of the possibilities. It has been a long journey for me and I feel like sharing how I feel is healing to my heart. I guess I am bitter and judgemental (if you spot it you got it) so I have my own self to focus on changing and growing.

    Dude

    ReplyDelete
  15. Oh my Dear Dude--how does it feel to be banging your head against a wall? I know, I know--trying to talk to an Apostolic can be a tad frustrating. The thing to remember is that their belief is in "The Church". "The Church" is everything. JAT mentioned how she has a personal relationship with God but doesn't tell everyone. I bet she doesn't. It's a tad bit suspect if you go around talking about God and Jesus and that sort of thing. What you talk about is "The Church", forgivness of sin within "The Church", what the preachers and elders say(who I see as simply men, not prophets), and how good it is to be one of the tiny, tiny, TINY fraction of the world's population that is saved. I told a preacher recently that I was going to pray for someone who is sick and he looked shocked, SHOCKED, that I thought I could just go off willy nilly and pray to God. There are people in that religion that I love with all my heart. When I come across someone who has left "The Church" I am willing to support them. I worry, and pray for, people who are in the church because they feel they can't leave, and I completely support those who are happy in "The Church". It's all good. When JAT said to you that by not asking how your relationship with God she is actually being kind (since they think you are going to hell in a handbasket)we have to accept that as their reality. Wouldn't you hate to be that limited in your caring for others? I liked what you said about not believing God is up there with a taser waiting to pick you off. I had never believed you could lose your faith "in the twinkling of an eye", either. Although, perhaps a moment of clarity might hit and a person could realize that God is not a building or a small group of people. Maybe that's what that means--you could lose your faith in a religion. But, not your faith in God. Dude, I think God is big and he has his hand on you, and me, and all of our brothers and sisters. I wish you every good thing on your journey. You have a good heart and God has blessed you. LLLreader

    ReplyDelete
  16. I know I promised to finish my point-by-point discussion, but I am afraid I will have to say that I am no longer willing to do so. I do not feel it will get us anywhere. I am not learning anything about you in doing it, and it is quite obvious that you are not learning anything about me, nor anything about "the church" by my doing it. To tell me that I don't CARE about dude just because I think its KIND not to tell him I think he's going to hell? Sorry guys. I will continue to read what you have to say, because I learn from it, but I don't see anyone learning from my participating in this conversation.... I do wish you all a LONG, HAPPY life, and as much as you don't believe it, I do hope and pray you may someday reach heaven, even if it means I am wrong in my beliefs.

    ReplyDelete
  17. JAT,
    I have learned enough about you to know that you are not representative of the LLC I left. The openness to discussion, and your lack of defensiveness to this point speak volumes to me. My suggestion...don't let any of the elders, board members, preachers know how you think, because it doesn't match up with what they teach. At least what was taught when I left. May God's Peace truly be with you, and Dude too.
    "unbeliever"

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. "Unbeliever" I have considered what you have said to me, and I would like to say I appreciate that you are concerned enough to want to give me advice. I would also like to add, without really saying too much about myself here, that the majority of my understandings about the teachings of the LLC have come directly from a minister in one way or another. I would also say that I have gone against the direct advice of the Ministers in at least one matter of my life, and am still a greeted and respected member of the church, and am not afraid to do so again. My friends know where I stand on these matters and it is not an issue with them either. Perhaps things really have changed. Perhaps it is just that we grew up in different areas... Just A Thought....

      Delete
    2. Without a doubt, people are treated differently. Often, it depends on what family you're from, who you're friends with, as far as what people will let slide and who will get judged and attacked for certain things. That's probably the main reason people leave the church, because of all the judging. It's so hypocritical and wrong. Do I hope things change? Absolutely I do, and if they are changing, that's great. Even if things do change, I'll never go back, but we need to keep talking about this because and not remain silent because things will not change if people don't speak up. I don't think any of us who have left would want anyone still in the church to experience and see the things that we did growing up in the church.
      -EXFALC

      Delete
  18. JAT--I am just one person, and have no idea of the identity of Dude, FreeThinker or the others who are writing here. They were having a civil discussion with you and I hope you don't quit posting because of what I have said. I will refrain from commenting and hope that you will continue your discourse with them. Don't hold my remarks against them. LLLreader

    ReplyDelete
  19. JAT - I hope most of all you can see what things may look like from the outside. I have listened to 50 or more podcasts of Sunday services and I have heard the assertions made from the pulpit about people who are not born into this and for the most part they are way off and offer no proof from scripture or otherwise. For example, I heard an Easter sermon where the preacher said that no where on earth is there love like at there service and that no one loves God like they do. In addition he said that people on the outside go on Easter but then don't measure up because they are just sinning and they don't go back to 'services'. The best way I can explain my feelings on this is his behavior resembles that of a bigot, only a religious bigot. Other people, including myself have experienced love from God. There is absolutely no truth to what he is saying and he himself would not know himself and how could he? It really makes me angry and it makes him look like an uneducated and truly out of touch. I have heard the term 'we know" followed by some assertion over and over. The question is, what does that mean? No real biblical knowledge. Mostly reading a few passages and making a huge leap into a point about being a weary weak sinful traveler who has sin that so often besets us etc. Any disagreement from the outside just makes the lie grow stronger as this is an excuse to condemn the unbelief. It actually doesn't have to be this way. I just want to let you know that the preachers don't have their facts straight yet it treated as fact. I didn't learn all this until I did the research after being a around this for over a decade. I knew something was off but I didn't realize just how far off it is. I mean far off in that an objective 3rd partly could dissect the sermons and find numerous untruths. I know it's hard for you to think of anything other than 'I ain't changing' because that kind of contempt prior to investigation is absolutely 100% of the feedback I have received.

    ReplyDelete
    Replies
    1. Oops I forgot to say it's Dude. Anyway peace to you for real. I'm kinda messed up from whatever and I am venting. JAT I am glad you are part of this discussion and in the end you I admire you for reaching out.

      Delete