"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Leaving home

Monday, November 09, 2009

Leaving home

I recently finally made the resolution to give up my membership in a Laestadian church, the result of two decades of soul searching. My immediate family is no longer speaking to me, although I suspect this, too, shall come to pass. They speak to my brother, who "ran away" to another city and left the church as well.

If you met my family, I am sure you'd think they were about the nicest people you'd ever met, and they probably are...if you're not part of their family and especially not a family member trying to leave the church. I sat drinking coffee one Sunday morning when it dawned on me at about 10 a.m. that just because I will no longer go to THAT church, it doesn't mean I can't go to church. Almost impulsively, I searched the Internet for service times of churches in my immediate area. Most of the services had already started, but one, the ELCA, had an 11:00 service. If I showered quickly, I could make it on time.

I bounded out the door at quarter to eleven, drove about half a mile, and walked into the church. It was the first time in my four-decade life I had been outside my LLL church for services of my own volition. Once, in high school, I slept over at a "worldly" friend's house when the next morning her parents insisted I go to church with them before they dropped me off at home. I tried to explain to them my parents wouldn't like me to go to another church, and then they asked me what church I went to. When I replied, "Apostolic Lutheran" they insisted I go, since it was a Lutheran church they go to, and how different could it be? So I went, but made a concerted effort not to hear anything in the sermon, lest I be tempted. Later in college, I was given a mandatory assignment to attend a place of worship different from my own, and then compare and contrast both experiences. I selected a Catholic church, since it seemed in sermons I had heard in my LLL church that the Catholics had things so screwed up I for sure would not be tempted by any of their dogma.

I sat in a back pew, alone. I recognized the neighbors down the street as the wife used to provide before-school care for our younger child in elementary school. There were maybe about 20 people there, in contrast with the great mob that attends Sunday services at my LLL church.

The pastor was dressed simply and casually, in a black mock-turtleneck and black pants, no robe or finery for him. Ironically, the parishioners were dressed much more casually than in my LLL church. Only one very elderly woman wore a dress.

A hymn was started, accompanied by organ music. My own church sang a cappela, with several people (men only) serving as hymn leaders, or lukkaris as we say in Finn. There weren't enough people to really carry the songs, and I could not join in because I was so lost. "Geez, they could really use some lukkaris, I thought to myself, before I censored that thought as being too judgmental. That was what I was trying to get away from!

The song was about the steadfastness of Christ's love, and a torrent of tears released from me. I so needed to hear that. I know it will take years, maybe forever, to erase my Laestadian mindset. My husband is unemployed right now, and he is very worried about his ability to get a job, and it has crossed my mind that maybe he cannot find a job because I am being punished for leaving the church. Then I dismissed the thought. Ridiculous. According to that mindset, only LLL'ers would have jobs, and there are plenty of non-Godly people who are employed and successful.

The sermon was about the importance of service and giving to others, using the Biblical story about the widow who gave two coins (all she had) and the rich folks who gave more, but their personal impact was much less, so her gift meant so much more. I contrasted that with the LLL-sermons that rarely mention giving, although I do know Laestadians who give both time and their resources to people and charities outside their faith communities. I also know Laestadians who justify their non-giving and non-volunteering by saying that those things are but "filthy rags before God."

I was amazed at how few people there were, contrasted to the many at my old church. How could that be? Then I started to think: Would I have attended church as often as I have if there had not been those annoying phone calls to my house when I elected to stay home?

What if no longer attending church didn't place me automatically in hell? Or on the flip side, attending church no longer put me in heaven? What if some other criteria was being used, things you can't see but you can feel, such as kindness and the love in your heart for God and for your fellow human beings?

What if the few people that were there were holier and closer to God than the thousand or so folks who regularly attend my urban congregation, because they were not there out of pleasing their relatives or to earn their way to heaven, but they were there simply to praise God?

There are a lot of what if's. It is amazing, but since I left the church, I am able to effortlessly find myself thanking God and talking to him, and I didn't as much before. Was I too frightened of Him? I know my mother would say that it was the devil I am now speaking to, not God, since He doesn't exist outside our branch of Laestadianism. I know not all believe as she does, but she is my mother and it's from her lap I learned all of his.

62 comments:

  1. Thank you "SISL" for coming aboard as a contributor and for sharing your journey with us.

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  2. I second that, thank you for sharing your experiences and I look forward to reading more!

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  3. Sounds like my experiance in many different ways. I remember being so extremely nervous the first time I attented a "non-laestadian" church. I thought they were going to judge me, and the kids would stare. Boy, was I ever wrong, in a good way! :) I often wonder how the laestadians can call other churches dead faiths. Atleast they are going to church for the right reasons.

    Thank you for sharing!

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  4. Welcome Stranger. It will take some time for you to adjust to other churches and the outside culture. At least that was my experience. We had 'the only church to be saved' concept so drilled into our heads that at first I looked on every other church out their with 'Laestadian lenses' until I realized other churches stood in their own right and they were not somehow accountable to dogmatic Laestadianism. Some years prior I had begun to see the gross hypocracy within the APL groups and I was exposed to real evangelic Christians who loved the Lord.....their witness made me come to see that the APL groups were something that might be likened to hollow shells with the original meanings of the church lost. I started finding that when I questioned any of the general accepted doctrines or beliefs it was like poking the backside of a dragon. It will be tempting to 'run back' to the Laestadian's arms after you have your first set back in a new church or otherwise as you were probably brought up allowing others to think for you and tell you what to do instead of thinking for yourself. So you will consciously have to resist that temptation. It will also take time to make new friednds as most Americans are nowhere near emotionally as 'heavy' as a Laestadian. I made it, so to speak, and many others have too. I never looked back or regretted it after a few years. I only wish I had left sooner once I found out what it was like to be free. No more 'thought police' or informers calling me up or watching me any more. Zanon

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  5. "My husband is unemployed right now, and he is very worried about his ability to get a job, and it has crossed my mind that maybe he cannot find a job because I am being punished for leaving the church."

    I think you already found an answer to that question, but you can also think about it this way:

    - Are there companies nearby owned by laestadians who employ people because they are laestadians?

    - Are there laestadian people in such positions in companies nearby that they could employ your husband?

    If you answer yes to one of the previous questions. Are there any reason they haven't yet employed your husband while you was an laestadian?

    If you answer no to the questions, your leaving will certainly not do any harm to your husbands ability to find a job.

    Probably his chances might be better now, since i suppose you have better possibilities to move other cities?

    Anyway, I don't know much about your situation, but I hope you the best.

    Remember also that You will always be welcome back to your old congregation, perhaps the most welcome person. That's always an alternative to keep in mind..

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  6. ex falc says...

    excellent post!! I can tell you are speaking from your heart. The truth really does set you free. I consider it a blessing from god that I am free from the LLL mindset.

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  7. Wonderful post, Stranger! You're on a journey that most of here have experienced. Balancing any angst about leaving is going to be those little discoveries each day of how God loves you -- and you will find such freedom as you move away from the Laestadian dogma, restrictions, and wrong thinking.

    As you continue on your journey, take a look and experience different churches, and you will find one that resonates within you, and where you feel that it just "right". Some of us have found our niche in other Lutheran churches, independent churches, and yes, even in that Roman Catholic church (you know, the folks on the slippery slope to hell according to the Laestadian fearmongers.)

    You'll find that there are many stages on the journey, from some feelings of fear or regret, to joy as you discover and experience what the true love of God is -- both from God and toward God.

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  8. Love your post, Stranger. I can see you walking away from "bondage" toward "freedom" albeit hesistantly, as I suspect we all have.
    My mother, also, accused me of speaking with the "devil" when I suggested that God communicated with me when I prayed. We were born and bred to be judgmental, and tempering that conditioning seems to be a lifelong task, at least for me.
    Thanks again, and many blessings to you. Many Trails Home

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  9. CVOW already said it how I would say it. Eyes open. Embrace your new journey. You made the big first step and that is the hardest. Expect some emotional questions and angst. They're normal. Ijumped

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  10. Congratulations on your decision to leave the bondage that you were in. It takes courage and a strong will. You will find, as I did, that the longer you are free the better you will feel about your decision.
    There is not a day that goes by that I am not thankful of my decision to leave the OALC , only regret that I stayed those many decades.
    Gods blessings to you and your family!

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  11. You end up leaving in stages psychologically. The first step is to physically leave as you have already 'mentally left' or at least you have been strongly considering it. You will first have doubts and guilt and thoughts of going back-resist the temptation to go back at all costs as leaving can be a real shocker if one grew up immersed in an ALC environment. Do not worry-God is not going to 'punish you.' After several months you might find yourself becoming very happy to be free from all the gossip as the Pharisees will eventually give up talking about you and turn on some new victim which is their specialty. Take some time to read over the history of your particular APL group and see how it came about. Write your own little mini-biography of how and why you ended up where you are. I would recommend attending several conservative-non Lutheran groups to get a 'feel' for outside churches without having another version of Lutheran doctrine stuffed down your throat. You will end up meeting many nice people and get involved with new activities. Do not commit to any new church for a long time until you are really sure where you stand. Just be an attending non member so that you can easily leave if you choose to do so. Grieve your personal 'losses' as you gain independence from the 'Independents.' Start getting used to and enjoying your new found freedom. Time heals all wounds-give yourself several years to go through the whole process. As you discover what life is like not having a millstone around your neck you will find lots of new happiness within and you will learn to enjoy things that you never could before-no more 'sin salabim.' Bit by bit the psychological ties break and mend. One day you find yourself free from all the old crap and standing in your own right. One day you will wonder how in the world you had ever put up with it in the first place as much of the Laestadian type religious, social and cultural beliefs are very 'alien' to both mental happiness and even the Bible itself. Learn to enjoy the whole process of leaving and stay in touch with yourself. Zanon

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  12. I just watched an interesting movie on Youtube regarding the Psalm 109:8 with an interesting interview with Frank Schaeffer.

    You can watch the movie by clicking on my Nick.

    Perhaps the problem with US Christianity is overemphasizing the Bible and neglating tradition.

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  13. okay now, L Info. No more excuses. Just get out your Bible and start reading.

    Just kidding :-).

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  14. My take is that American Laestadianism is underestimating the Bible and overemphasizing tradition.

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  15. LLLreader chimes in: You got that right anonymous 4:05!!!!!!

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  16. "My take is that American Laestadianism is underestimating the Bible and overemphasizing tradition."

    Luther wanted to remove several books from the Bible. For example the revelation. Luther wanted the church to focus on the core in Christianity, which is Jesus death and rescurection.

    My opinion that US Christians overemphasize the Bible is based on personal experience. I have debated on a few US forums, and was thrown out of one because I proved there are errors in the Bible. That would not happen on a European forum.

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  17. Interesting opinion. I have to agree with anon 4:05. Yes American Laestadians read the bible, but sometimes it seems as though they don't put much thought into the meaning, and go by what they've heard all their lives about it. Does that make sense? I think too much tradition can become a bad thing.

    The bible is the truth.

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  18. oh my. I just googled Psalm 109:8 and see that it's being discussed as an anti-Obama slogan. For goodness sake, L Info. Don't buy into all of that...

    Do you have a favorite Psalm or Bible verse, or any passages that are particularly meaningful to you? As a Christian and fellow Laestadian, it seems you might have some that have been special to you in life.. Care to share?

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  19. "The bible is the truth."

    The Bible contains the truth, but is not the truth. There are much in the Bible which is irrelevant for Christian faith. Some things are just plain wrong.

    Gods word is what preachers preach, not the Bible. The Bible must be interpreted correctly.

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  20. Norah, here are a few I try to keep in mind (more like guidelines):

    Luke 6:31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

    Exodus 23:1 Value the truth; don't lie.

    Ephesians 4:25 Don't lie. Speak the truth to your neighbor.

    Philippians 4:8 "Whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

    2 Timothy 2:24 Be gentle and patient with all others.

    James 4:11 "Speak not evil of one another."

    1 Peter 3:8-11 Be compassionate and courteous. Don't seek revenge when you are harmed by another. Speak kindly of others. Do good and avoid evil.

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  21. Here are a few favorites more:

    Romans 4:7 "Blessed are they whose transgressions are forgiven, whose sins are covered."

    Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

    Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    1Cor 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles,

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  22. LLLreader here: Hi there Laestadianinfo--I have no quibble with you that the Bible has some inconsistencies--but that statement is used by some religious groups to sort of ignore the Bible and go with what some of their religious leaders put out there as truth.

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  23. LaestadianInfo, the last four Bible versus you quoted are often used by the Apostolic Lutheran/Laestadians out of context to back their agenda that only through 'their' church is forgiveness of sins possible since they interpret these verses as their ownership of the 'power of the keys' to audibly pronounce people's sins' forgiven. In actuality confession in the New Testament is only used in the context of a Christian verbally speaking of his/her shortcomings to another brother/sister to be strengthened in their faith in Christ and in that sense their 'faults' are forgiven since their faith in Christ grows. However, within the Apostolic Lutheran interpretation, unless one 'confesses' a sin and receives audible 'forgiveness' from the congregation or another Christian sins are not really forgiven or at least their is grave doubt. Hence reconciliation amongst the groups would be very difficult since each group feels that the other must 'repent' or 'confess' their error/heresy to the other. The Apostolic groups do not like to admit what their interpretation about confession really is when questioned about it. They will go to great lengths to put a spin on it or say that 'some feel this way' or some other blather. The difference is subtle unless one is familiar with actual Laestadian interpretations, but when taken out of context they have huge consequences. In my first example then, one strives for righteousness within Christ by learning to take on the ways of Jesus through his Word. In the second case righteousness tends to be sought within the context of having confessed one's sins and having received absolution. The repeated problem is that within absolution type Christian groups such as Apostolic Lutheranism or traditional Catholicism, one is always 'dirty' striving to become clean/righteous hence the constant need for a 'mea culpa' whereas in the Christianity I have come to know, one is already white but constantly striving to get brighter by living within the Word.

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  24. That may well be true, but personally I don't think there is any problem with preachers preaching stuff which cannot be found in the Bible, as long as it is according to the traditional view, and most important, not against the Bible.

    The Catholic Church had at one point in the time come up with some teachings that were against the Bible. Such teachings are heretic.

    Luther wanted the Church to get rid of the heretic teachings, but the tradition is to todays date well preserved in the Lutheran church.

    If Christianity were limited to only what we can find in the Bible, it were quite limited.

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  25. Sorry, my previous answer was a little out of sync. I answered to your previous posting, while you posted the new. :)

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  26. I have heard that line about preachers emphasizing 'traditional teachings.' The problem I found with that is that so much that was really emphasized as 'traditional teachings' preempted very important sections of the New Testament such as living in the Spirit and being fruitful. I also strongly disagree wtih you that the Bible is somehow 'quite limited.' Everything that is going on in the context of world events and the current financial collapse for example, is actually all in the Scriptures. The current global 'humanistic' movement for instance is really only based on the same false Greek teachings that the Apostle Paul confronted in Athens. There really is nothing new under the sun.

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  27. "Everything that is going on in the context of world events and the current financial collapse for example, is actually all in the Scriptures."

    I don't believe that's true. Can you show some examples? I will look at it tomorrow. It's bed time in Finland. ;)

    Regarding the absolution, the previous poster might have a point, but I don't think laestadians generally look at it that way.

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  28. An obvious example of a current event in the Scriptures is the entire global fiat money/fractional reserve banking system which is on the verge of collapsing. This type of financial system was specifically banned by our Constitutional fathers who were familiar with the bankers power in Europe. Our money system is now based on a Congressional decree versus any real backing. The only reason this financial system was finally introduced in the US in 1913 was pure demonic greed by the big banking institutions in England and New York who sought to 'take over' the country which they have done-hence the bailouts to Wall Street financial firms who are the real controllers of the US. Jesus repeatedly warned of the dangers of serving mammon versus God. Most of America seems to be infatuated with making more money. In the end they will find they were only chasing after a demon's promise. So yes I think there is plenty going on that is in the Scriptures.

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  29. 'Regarding the absolution, the previous poster might have a point, but I don't think laestadians generally look at it that way.' Bah humbug!, here you go with the same old 'spin' that I am very familiar with. When pressed on the point most Laestadians squirm even more trying to evade answering what they really believe and teach with respect to confession and absolution and its bearing on salvation versus faith in Christ. Virtually every Laestadian I ever met including those from Finland believe the same thing when it comes right down to it although there have been a few exceptions. The Laestadian understanding of the 'keys' is 'the key' to understanding the uniqueness of Laestadianism.

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  30. "The current global 'humanistic' movement for instance is really only based on the same false Greek teachings that the Apostle Paul confronted in Athens."

    I have learnt in school that the western civilization is mainly based on Greek heritage and philosophy, rather than Christianity. You can for example not find any foundation for democracy in the Bible.

    The Greeks created the western civilization. Greece had the first known democracy in the world.

    Amongst their numerous accomplishments, the ancient Greeks are credited with inventing competitive athletics, drama, democracy, oratory, rhetoric, biology, and zoology. Several ancient Greek concepts have since been applied in civilizations throughout much of Western history.

    Apostle Paul had some issues with Greeks from a religious view, thats all. In religious teachings we don't follow Greek philosophy to the full extent, but in many other aspects we have the Greeks to thank for our civilization.

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  31. "Our money system is now based on a Congressional decree versus any real backing."

    Here I agree with you, but there is really not any good alternative to lending more money with our current banking system. Because all money is created out of "thin air" by the central banks, and the lent money has interest, more money has to be lent by someone. In other case there will be a shortage of money, because the interest rate eats some of the money out there all the time.

    Try to look at it from the bright side instead. Your country has the ability to create tremendous amounts of new money, because most countries currency reserve is in dollar. This forces other countries, like China, to buy the loans for the new dollars your central bank is creating right now.

    Because you create so much new money, you will probably also have inflation in future, which actually mean you don't have to pay back the lent money. With 4% inflation, 4% of the foreign debt is paid off per year, without you have to do anything.

    Nobel laureate Pauk Krugman thinks US create to little money, and he is a very smart person. You can read his blog on New York times.

    "Jesus repeatedly warned of the dangers of serving mammon versus God."

    That's true, and thats why I am a little surprised many US Christians seems to vote republicans.

    In Finland many Christians are far leftists. For example one of our EU parliament members, an orthodox pastor, is social democrat. Thats extreme left on a US scale.

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  32. Laestadian info said, 'there is really not any good alternative to lending more money with our current banking system. Because all money is created out of "thin air" by the central banks, and the lent money has interest, more money has to be lent by someone.' Sorry but your logic is only outdated 1930's Keynesian economic theory. Professor Krugman's ideas have been trashed by many well respected economists in America and downplayed by the MSM. The only real explanation to our present economic situation is from the Austrian School of Economics which debunks all the socialist/statist economic nonsense. Von Mises clearly articulates how a credit based financial system, such as we have in America, can and must collapse-it is only a question of letting it fail now (think September 2008) or inflating the money supply to the nth degree and holding off an even worse financial collapse later (perhaps the fall of 2012). Keynesian econ teaches that endless supplies of capital can be cranked out of a printing press. Austrian economics in contrast teaches that capital is finite and is a merger of mind and money which obtains its backing in the form of rare commodities...i.e. gold. Alan Greenspan privately admits the same and although he acknowledges that there are problems with a gold standard, it is, according to Greenspan, the only way to prevent mass 'wealth confiscation' by the politicians or 'statists' as he calls them. Finlnd has been a socialist type anomoly because it has a homogenous small population. Many of the socialist programs in Finland are really a backlash against the horrid torpar serf-like living conditions which my grandparents told us about which existed in pre-independent Finland. These conditions provided the fuel for the Finnish Civil War betwen the whites and reds. A good book to read about this is called, 'Here Under a Northern Star.' So Finland is one of those anomolies where a mixed capitalist/socialist type government has worked out quite well. But modern Finland appears to be moving more towards free market capitalism these days. However, this type system would not work in most other countries. In this country the Keynesian statists basically created the present financial crisis so that they could gain dictatorial type powers over the people 'to advance their social agenda.' The number one enemy of the Obama type statists are the conservative Christians. Laestadians (me included) will find that their presence and beliefs might not be so welcome in this country once the statists consolidate their power and then begin to implement their long term agenda. The humanist/statists goals are contrary to every word of the Bible in that they are trying to implement a sort of pseudo world paradise based on humanistic rationalism. In contrast the Bible teaches clearly that this world is doomed and that the only way to obtain temporal peace in this world would be by following the teachings of Jesus/found in Christ. With regards to your other comments.....Christians only vote Republican in this country because they view it as the lesser of two evils. The goals of conservative Christianity and humanism at first seem remarkably parallel. However the means to the end are totally the opposite-one is inspired by God and the other inspired by Satan. 'Hath God said........'

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  33. Professor Krugman is only a tool of the statists and he gained favor with them and became their darling in the sense that he was 'anti-Bush.' The Federal Reserve System and fiat money were created to ensure funding for the statists and their imperialist globalist schemes leading up to WWI and most subsequent wars. World War I was in actuality really a war between between competing British and German monarchists and statists backed by Rothschild banking families on both sides. The central bank fractional reserve/fiat money system was specifically designed long ago to ensure that monarchies would have the financing to wage wars for resources. Take a look in the Bible and Paul clearly writes how wars come about because of covetousness. It is all only demon's promises.

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  34. And once again...

    This thread started as a discussion about some one leaving the Laestadian church, and once again the thread has been hijacked into other topics of discussion. First it drifted off to claims of the Bible being incorrect, and how we should follow the lead of Laestadian preachers rather than the Bible. (many of us left the Laestadians for exactly that kind of wrong thinking!) Now it's headed off into a rambling discourse on the merits of the monetary system -- and why the Americans have it all wrong.

    What's wrong with focusing on one topic at a time, and starting a new thread if there is something else to discuss?

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  35. 'This thread started as a discussion about some one leaving the Laestadian church, and once again the thread has been hijacked into other topics of discussion.'
    Sorry, maybe I have too much time on my hands to start talking about economics. But I wanted to respond to Laestadianinfo's postx which I do not agree with. To me he sometimes sounds like Laestadian 'disinformation' especially aboout following the preachers instead of the Bible. Besides, I think all the side discussions are all interelated with Laestadianism as Laestadianism is only one faction within the body of Christ albeit many of them do not see it that way. Plus some blog readers may not be well versed on economics and who is really running the global financial show, and how it relates to them. For many readers of this blog, leaving their particular Laestadian Church is not always the best answer to their disagreements with the church-just because leaving was the right answer for me does not mean it is the right answer for everyone else so I do not think we just have to talk about leaving the church. Many local Laestadian congregations are open minded, Bible believing churches and a person would have absolutely no reason to leave. However, I would like to add that most ex-Laestadians I know end up becoming highly educated and well versed on a variety of subjects instead of just knowing the goings on between the 4 walls of their church, the local construction scene and the local rumor mill. So if we stray please be patient.

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  36. "This thread started as a discussion about some one leaving the Laestadian church, and once again.."

    If I remember right, the owner of this blog promised I can write about any topic I like..

    "First it drifted off to claims of the Bible being incorrect"

    I just wrote I think US Christians overemphasize the Bible. The Bible is for example not inerrant contra popular beliefs. As an Catholic I think you should agree? I think Catholics has the right view on the Bible.

    "and how we should follow the lead of Laestadian preachers rather than the Bible."

    I would not sign that statement. :)

    "But modern Finland appears to be moving more towards free market capitalism these days."

    The current government consists of "right wing" parties. However there are no party in Finland that want to replace the "socialist" part with free market. Our right wing party Kokomus emphasizes now and then, they support the socialists agenda, but has a different view of how it should be implemented (This mean all supports free schools and health care).

    "Professor Krugman is only a tool of the statists and he gained favor with them and became their darling in the sense that he was 'anti-Bush.'"

    I think Professor Krugman is an Nobel laureate for a good reason. He has been good at predicting economy. I have read about the Austrian School a little on the web. For example Wikipedia says this "The main criticism of modern Austrian economics is that it ostensibly lacks scientific rigor".

    "The humanist/statists goals are contrary to every word of the Bible ......In contrast the Bible teaches clearly that this world is doomed and that the only way to obtain temporal peace in this world would be by following the teachings of Jesus/found in Christ."

    Now, I don't understand what you are writing. Nowhere in the Bible are we forbidden to improve the living conditions for our fellow men. In fact the very core of Christianity encourages us to this.

    "The foremost is, 'Hear, O Israel! The Lord our God is one Lord; and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.' "The second is this, 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." (NAS, Mark 12:28-31)

    We commonly think of neighbors as the people who live near us, but Jesus meant it to include all mankind - even our enemies! Jesus told His famous parable of the Good Samaritan to make it clear that "love your neighbor" means to love all persons, everywhere - not just our friends, allies, countrymen, etc.

    The core of Christianity is this commandment and the forgiveness of sins. Everything else is pretty much secondary..

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  37. Laestadianinfo says, 'I just wrote I think US Christians overemphasize the Bible. The Bible is for example not inerrant contra popular beliefs. As an Catholic I think you should agree? I think Catholics has the right view on the Bible.'
    You are free to believe as you choose LLO. However, I have sought out matters diligently and I have found the Bible to be without error (by the way I am not a Catholic). There are some parts that are difficult to understand of course but there is nothing that would change my view of its inerrancy. As far as Austrian economics; the Austrian's were shut out of US economic strategy by the Keynesians in the 1930's as the statists sought to 'collectivize' the US economy. In countries where Asutrian concepts have been allowed to flourish-say in Singapore-the economies have thrived. Somehow you seem to think that conservative Christianity is not interested in helping others better their lot in life. I think you are confusing conservative Christianity with the 'fundamentalism.' Fundamentalist type understandings are dogmatic and probably would fit your definition of conservatism. But they are not one and the same at all. Many conservative Bible groups want nothing to do with fundamentalist concepts. Fundamentalist type understandings do indeed tend to squash all human progress. You also seem to think that social welfare programs improve the lives of people. On a limited basis they can help but for the most part learning to work honestly is what improves the life of most-the Apostle Paul clearly stated that 'those who do not work should not eat.' Most American Laestadians have no idea that Lars Laestadius had many other writings besides Postillas that have not yet been translated into English including works where he examines many of the French, German and English philosophers and totally demolishes their ideas and shows how inferior they are to the Word of God. You might have access to these works over in Finland. Neither the Apostle Paul, Luther nor Laestadius taught that some type of human paradise was going to be created in this world. They understood the principles that this world is based on-force, greed and disobedience-and how the 'prince of the air' rules here. They clearly understood that everything was in passing and that the Christian was here to seek salvation for himself and others. The modern humanistic trend in many if not most liberal churches is to somehow join Christianity and secular humanism together. This is nothing other than the number 666 in the Book of Revelation, which is in reality the joining of the Biblical number of man which is '6' together with 66 books of the Bible. Hence the 666. This co-joining of the two is a sign that the end of all things is drawing ever closer. It appears that this ongoing financial crisis will act as a catalyst to that end.

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  38. "However, I have sought out matters diligently and I have found the Bible to be without error"

    I think I can show you later there are errors in the Bible. The same problem as yesterday, it's bed time in Finland.

    But regarding the "gold standard" for currency, I don't think it make any sense. Why bind the currency to a nature resource? That would give countries that have gold a unjust favor.

    A reform where a person who owns an little weightier gold chain can go and change it to a Chrysler might be hard to put trough. ;)

    Of course binding the currency to gold would prohibit inflating the money like US now do, but the problem is really the interest.

    Because all money is lent, there has all the time to be put more money in the system to cover the interest. Every economist knows that. Thats why the economy is expected to grow exponentially.

    Everyone interested in the subject knows there might be problems with exponential growth in the long run in a limited world.

    That's why a monetary reform may be needed some day, but most experts think the reform should be that the state starts to print the money by them self, and not lending it from central banks.

    If I remember right this has already been tried in US. I think it was called Greenback or something..

    I will read your last post more careful later. So long!

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  39. 'I think I can show you later there are errors in the Bible.' You will be hard pressed to do that. As far as economics stuff I could go on with the discussion but I will try to drop that subject for now. I am more interested in hearing of these 'errors' that you have found. But first please consider whether those 'errors' are only the same ones that Jannes and Jambros found with respect to Moses or perhaps those of Sanballat and Geshen with respect to Nehemiah. Personally I found that those 'contradictions and errors' I wondered about all disappeared when I was filled with the Holy Spirit and the Word became alive within me. I have sometimes mused, based on my own experience, that those making claims about all the 'errors' in the Bible are those who are still trying to use their skulls to intellectually try to decipher Christianity which is impossible. Natural mind can not accept God's Word. Christianity can not be partaken of without faith which opens up the supernatural to us. Then it all makes complete sense. The doubter remains in such a state until he runs headlong into Christ. I may speak of things in a tone and with a certainty that you are not used to but I have a reason to do so. Hence I will repeat my statement that everything in the Bible is true and without error.

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  40. Excellent, Anonymous.

    It seems to me that the way this applies to Laestadianism and this thread is that we may consider what our core values are, and if we are living our lives are in accordance with our core values and beliefs.

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  41. Anonymous, please sign your comments with a nickname so we can follow who is talking. You do not need to register to do this. Just include a nickname at the end of your comment. Thanks for participating on the blog.

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  42. "I think you are confusing conservative Christianity with the 'fundamentalism.'"

    Well, I agree with that. Laestadians in Finland would certainly not describe them self as fundamentalists, but surely as conservative.

    Regarding humanism I think you are right about secular humanism, but all humanism is not secular. I for example think Jesus was a humanist. He put the interest of people ahead of religion. He for example allowed us to break the sabbath commandment for certain reasons.

    Regarding debating the Bible, I must say I don't have the time to do it now.

    I will be very busy for a couple of weeks (for a reason I am very happy about), and will not have much time to look at this blog during that time. We can return to the subject lets say after two weeks. I think the errors in the Bible are irrelevant for the lesson in the Bible.

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  43. LLLreader has a cold and is feeling grumpy: I have been on this blog for a good long time. Every once in awhile someone appears who just HAS to preach to us about how right they are. Mostly these discussion lean towards hot button issues like abortion, the infallibility of the Bible, and such. The members of this blog approach their faith in different ways. We are not all alike. Saying "I believe this" and "I don't believe that" is honest and respectful to all of us. This blog is a vehicle for sharing our stories, and a place to support those who have left a belief system that doesn't work for them. Sure, you can say whatever you wish Lastedianinfo. However, have you stopped to think that there might have been a good reason you got kicked off that other blog? Geez--you don't have to teach, or preach--just adopt a little humility--it might feel good. That goes for the new poster too. You write beautifully well, and I hope you stay around, but boy howdy, some of us got enough of that "I'm right, you're wrong" stuff in the OALC. I'm going to take some aspirin, drink some hot lemonade, and go back to bed. Glad you're back Free!

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  44. "However, have you stopped to think that there might have been a good reason you got kicked off that other blog?"

    I think the reason was that they preferred to believe in things they wished to be true, rather than truth.

    I am never offended when someone says I am wrong. I Am always happy to read that, because then I can question myself if I am wrong.

    You say I am wrong when I write about pro-laestadian and other subjects on a con-laestadian blog.

    I think I am right, because I can reach out to people who thinks differently than me. I think everyone would be better off if we tried to make us familiar with other opinions than the one of our own.

    When you have an opinion and never have to face criticism, you cannot know if its right.

    When I try to log into the Baptist board, its says I am locked out for "promoting Lutheranism and evolutionism". :)

    To me it seems that baptism cannot stand a honest debate.

    I have the highest respect for the owner of this blog, which has promised I can write about the subjects I like. I think it's up to the moderators of a forum to determine what can be discussed.

    It's easy to jump over my postings and not read them, if you don't like. It's called free will!

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  45. Are these board's squabbles really just an extension of the squabbling mindset of the Apostolic Lutheran groups to begin with? Are people just carrying their 'attack others' mindset here too? One time I read an encyclopedia about religions. Surprisingly the book had an entry about the 'Apostolic Lutheran Church and their basic beliefs. The encyclopedia entry went onto to say that the church had the potential, but never became a major force in America because of 'internal arguements.' I found in discussions with people that I really only attracted others to the truth by 'sharing' as that is what much of Christianity really is. With regards to LaestadianInfo's comments about Jesus being a humanist, wikipedia states, "Humanism is a perspective common to a wide range of ethical stances that attaches importance to human dignity, concerns, and capabilities, particularly rationality. Although the word has many senses, its meaning comes into focus when contrasted to the supernatural or to appeals to authority." So indeed humanism has a 'ring' of truth to it but you can see from the definition itself that it is anti-supernatural or really what it is saying is that it is 'anti-God.' Humanism then is man's attempt to mimic God without Christ. All false religions have an appeal to them because to some extent they use some of the same concepts of Christianity. So no, Jesus was not a 'humanist' in the sense LaestadianInfo states. He was actually the personification of God himself in flesh and blood. His goal was to save mankind. What I found lacking during my sojourn within Laestadianism was the organizational mindset that lacked compassion and love that should flow for our fellow humans such that our actions and hearts should mirror Jesus. Mahatma Ghandi once stated that Christianity was the greatest religion ever. The problem was he stated was that he had never met anyone who was a real Christian. With regards to LaestadianInfo's conversation about economics with 'anonymous' he might be surprised to find that the current fiat money system is really in many ways a humanist money system. Hence it is collapsing in tandem with the western humanist moral system that it is based on. We are in the midst of a-once every 500 year cycle-where the global power center shifts from one region of the world to another. In 1492 Columbus discovered the America's and ever since the balance of power has shifted from Europe to the America's. Now 500 years later the center of gravity is rapidly moving to Asia as western humanism has failed. Xanon

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  46. "Are these board's squabbles really just an extension of the squabbling mindset of the Apostolic Lutheran groups to begin with?"

    You might be right. ;) You will however all be saved from my "squabbling mindset" for some weeks now. I have a lot more important things to think about from tomorrow.

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  47. Well don't go away angry and just kick us to the curb thinking about all those other 'more important things.' I enjoy blabbering with you. It also helps bring out various concepts and ideas that some may not really be familiar with. I enjoy the verbalage with other Laestadians-ex or otherwise. The unstated goal of this blog is to provide a dialogue for people who are struggling to understand various issues, especially the ones that can not be brought up in the church. So we hope to hear from you soon. Zanon

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  48. "Well don't go away angry and just kick us to the curb thinking about all those other 'more important things."

    No, I like this blog! The things are not that 'important'. It's just that I can't sit with the computer on evenings. The seller of a house accepted our bid, so we are signing the contract tomorrow. Everything we own has has to be packed in boxes and I am forced to be off line for some days at worst. It takes time to settle in a new house.

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  49. LLLreader sez: HA! I would last on the Baptist blog about 2 minutes Lastedianinfo if they are that narrow in their thinking. I am proud of you for getting kicked off! How do I find them?

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  50. Anon. Have you ever gone to a conservative Baptist church and heard their message, seen their works and met their people? Would you really consider it a 'badge of honor' to be thrown off their blog? I know a Baptist family whose son was one of three Baptist missionaries who were executed for witnessing for the Christian faith in central America. How many people have you tried to lead to Christ? Zanon

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  51. Ex falc says
    I agree with this comment. Laestadianism explained in one sentence.

    "What I found lacking during my sojourn within Laestadianism was the organizational mindset that lacked compassion and love that should flow for our fellow humans such that our actions and hearts should mirror Jesus. "

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  52. LLLreader here: Laestadianinfo said he/she was kicked off the Baptist blog for voicing her opinion and it appears that is true from what "blog master" told her/him when she tried to log on. I have close relatives who are Baptist and have spent considerable time in the Baptist church. Certainly there are some lovely people within those walls. However, because I don't agree with some of their teachings I would not become a member. But, the same as my attitude towards the OALC, if a conservative, fundamentalist, evangelical church fills your heart and brings you close to Christ then who am I to say it's not right for you? Here is what I don't like. Your comment "How many people have you tried to led to Christ?" tells me that you somehow consider my belief less valuable then yours. Maybe those aren't the correct words--maybe it's that the implication is that I am not a Christian if I don't agree with the teachings of a conservative church. We approach religion in different ways and that's OK with me. God's love reaches out to all of us. Getting thrown off a blog for being rude and disrespectful is one thing--getting tossed out for having a different opinion is quite another.

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  53. 'tells me that you somehow consider my belief less valuable then yours. Maybe those aren't the correct words--maybe it's that the implication is that I am not a Christian if I don't agree with the teachings of a conservative church.' Not sure how you are able to jump to some conclusion and deduce that I think your beliefs are less valuable than mine. Not sure about your 'conservative church' statement either. You seem kind of touchy ref the whole matter. I am merely commenting on the writer's pride in being booted off a church web site as this would make me wonder what his 'agenda' is. Was it to build up or to destroy? There are literally millions of people out there trying to figure out what in the heck is the truth about the Bible. Many of them just need a little encouragement, personal sharing and clarification about the Bible as there is so much chaos out there because there are many churches whose agenda is really something less than salvation through Christ. Rhetorically speaking I am really questioning why is the writer not sharing his faith or beliefs versus attacking another group of people whose soul's are just as precious to God as the writer's is. Perhaps this is just a reaction on my part as I saw so many Laestadians who seemed to enjoy bashing any outside church, dismissing them as 'dead faith.' As I posted earlier is arguing about religion a Laestadian trait? Is it something that is just part and parcel to the group? Zanon

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  54. "Laestadianinfo said he/she was kicked off the Baptist blog"

    I was banned from the baptistboard for arguing for traditional Christianity and critisizing the 6000 year world view. When I try to log in it says I am banned for promoting "Lutheranism and evolutionism."

    Try if you have better luck than I had. Create an account on:

    http://www.baptistboard.com/

    and start debating theology. Soon you will see you are not welcome anymore. They even deleted all threads I started, though there were other people writing in the threads.

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  55. LLLreader sez: Yup, I'm touchy. I also am wishing everyone a wonderful Thanksgiving full of blessings. God bless----

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  56. Wishing everyone a joyous Thanksgiving with friends and family. Reflect Christ in your countenance and be a person of love to all. Zanon

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  57. Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

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  58. Aii i want to say if you live in yacolt and dont go to church anymore you will be shunned and your kids will be tormented at school! Real christan like behavior. Makes me sick i even started going to church!

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  59. Do you mean you are going back to the Apostolic Church?

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  60. I'm thinking this is someone not born in the church and who started going there and then has left and experienced the fall-out. I think the shunning might seem worse to people who convert and leave since they would not have the family ties.

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  61. I think that the verbal attacks on the children of parents who leave is nothing new. It was going on 75 years ago from what I was told. The children have to be as strong as the parents are about their convictions when leaving. One time I was in the military and I was wearing my ID tags. One of the children noticed them at the house I was visiting at and it was not long before I had a whole chorus of children screaming and yelling at me that I was a wearing a 'necklace like an unbeliever!' 'You're an unbeliever!' At the time I just ignored them but I could see how it could really hurt a young child. But what do you really expect from people when Christ is not the center of their life and churchianity is? As the parents are so go the children.

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  62. Anonymous 4:45, I agree that it has been going on for a long time. What is very discouraging --at least from my viewpoint -- is how it seems every generation gets more judgmental, more restrictive, and more paranoid. My experience has been that the new generation of preachers is much more harsh than the oldtimers were, as if there is some sort of contest going on about how they can become even more shrill in their "warnings". Since I've been around for a good while, I could tell you about some of the preachers today who were involved in every high school sport there was. Shucks, I've even got the school yearbooks to prove it! Yet today, those things have become heinous sins. Why? How? I have never found any biblical guidance about participating in sports, so I guess this is just another example of relying on the preachers to speak the truth, and never mind that old dusty bible.

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