"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Is Georgia the Finland of Our Day?

Wednesday, August 13, 2008

Is Georgia the Finland of Our Day?

It is hard to make sense of the Russian invasion of Georgia. All I know is that America has forfeited its moral standing in the world. Some argue that this is about oil, and Georgians can expect more violence, with little the U.S. can do to help. Some seem to warn of even darker outcomes. Here is an excerpt of an interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, former U.S. national security advisor.

Fundamentally at stake is what kind of role Russia will play in the new international system. Unfortunately, Putin is putting Russia on a course that is ominously similar to Stalin's and Hitler's in the late 1930s. Swedish foreign minister Carl Bildt has correctly drawn an analogy between Putin's "justification" for dismembering Georgia -- because of the Russians in South Ossetia -- to Hitler's tactics vis-a-vis Czechoslovakia to "free" the Sudeten Deutsch.

Even more ominous is the analogy of what Putin is doing vis-a-vis Georgia to what Stalin did vis-a-vis Finland: subverting by use of force the sovereignty of a small democratic neighbor. In effect, morally and strategically, Georgia is the Finland of our day.

You can read more of the interview here. (For information about the Russo-Finnish War, go here.)

41 comments:

  1. It's the first thing I thought of. There's no doubt that Russia (or the USSR) acts as a bully toward its smaller neighbors, but there are some significant differences between this situation and that of Finland, especially in the Winter War of '39. First, the majority of the residents of the rebel Georgian regions, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, want to be separated from Georgia. There was no equivalent in the Finnish situation. The populations of Karelia and Petsamo wanted to be part of Finland.

    You could make a stronger case for the Continuation War, because in that situation, Finland was retaking territory. In fact, when Finland went beyond the 1917 borders, they took land with a population that wasn't as desirous of being part of Finland, even though the population of Karelians from Russia shared ancestry with the Finns.

    I've seen how the Russo-Finnish war has scarred people living even today, when they remember houses burning and bombs exploding in their childhood. War benefits the elites but crushes the common people. How sad to get caught in the press.

    The Finns as a group wouldn't want Karelia back anymore, even if ut were handed back on a silver platter.

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  2. It's about the Oil Supplies. We will see that soon enough. It will be interesting to see where we Americans go with this. Can you imagine a couple of our states, say New York and Pennsylvania, or California and Arizona, saying they no longer wished to be part of the USA, and the rest of the country going along with it??!!! I wonder why we get so High and Mighty when it comes to other countries. SISU

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  3. I wish people would understand that conflicts are never as simple as they may seem from distance, especially if you are under the influence of biased media. Besides, the on-going Georgian conflict is particularly complicated one. I wish outsiders would refrain from stamping the parties as "good guys" and "bad guys". For the first, this is not a movie, it's real life. And for the second, having never been there and not knowing the local circumstances, they can't possibly have enough information to make such a distinction even if there were "good guys" and "bad guys".

    One thing people in the West seem to forget in these days is that it was the Georgian army that started the conflict by bombing and invading Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia. The Russians initially only protected the South Ossetian population by pushing away the invading Georgian army. Of course, they then proceeded to bomb also objects outside of the South Ossetian territory and yesterday there were reports of Russian tanks driving around in central Georgia (and South Ossetians looting in nearby areas outside of the South Ossetian territory), but that doesn't change the fact that it was the Georgians who initiated the war activity.

    Another thing that puzzles me is that while most of the world applauded the indepence declaration of Kosovo which was also very soon recognized by a multitude of countries, the indepence declarations of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which want to be separated from Georgia, have gone almost unnoticed without any understanding or recognition from the world.

    I don't see hardly any similarities between the current Georgian-Russian conflict and the Soviet attempt to invade Finland in 1939, at least not yet.

    Hibernatus

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  4. I forgot to add that it's usually not the common people that want war, at least not until they've been brainwashed by the war propaganda of their war thirsty leaders who want their names to remain in the history. They just want to live in peace with their families.

    As an Orthodox Christian it is heartbreaking to see three nations that are all predominantly Orthodox (at least culturally) to fight against each other. The Orthodox leaders on both sides of the conflict have made statements against this kind of behavior and called the parties back to dialogue. If the Georgians, the Ossetians and the Russians have been batized into one faith, they shouldn't be fighting each other but live together as brothers and sisters. Of course, all Georgians, Ossetians and Russians are not Orthodox, and there are many who are only nominally Orthodox, but it's still horrible.

    Hibernatus

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  5. Of the western media Reuters (www.reuters.com) seems to have more objective reporting on the conflict than others. For the Russian point of view, go for example to www.itar-tass.com/eng/

    Hibernatus

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  6. Free, please explain your sentence "All I know is that America has forfeited its moral standing in the world."

    How does that play in this issue?

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  7. When Bush used "regime change" to invade and occupy another country, he forfeited U.S. moral and suasive power to prevent other states from doing the same. Add to that: extraordinary rendition (torture by proxy), state-sanctioned torture, and the suspension of habeus corpus, coupled with unprecedented claims for executive power despite the lowest approval ratings of any president in history. A country of laws? For and by the people? Puhleez. Both Saakashvili and Putin can blow smoke at any bleating about democracy from Bush.

    Here is a more nuanced perspective than most by Charles King, a professor at Georgetown, in an interview with Glenn Greenwald.

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  8. Free-
    Why do you provide a link to a total far-left hate site like the Huffington Post? Something like that is not objective at all, and not credible in objective people`s minds. Just curious, as a far-right site would be just as bad. Everything needs to be fair and balanced. Even is some of the content somewhere is true on the "Post" the site itself does not have a credible perspective.

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  9. Hmmm. I've never actually read the Huffington Post directly, but I have read plenty of quotes from it in The Week magazine and I have agreed with them all. So does that make me "non-objective" and a "far lefty" who "hates?" Whew. I think what I have read so far from the HP is totally credible. And I think Arianna or Adrianna or whatever her name is is downright cool and supremely intelligent. So how do you judge my perspective? MTH

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  10. Oy, you maketh me laff. Is it "fair and balanced" to call Huffington Post a hate site? Enough of the listening to Rush, or Bill O, or whoever touts that kind of silliness. Here's some very post-Laestadian advice: consider ideas on their own merits. Resist generalizations. Read widely.

    I'd like to think this blog has credibility despite the frequent airing of some odd perspectives (MTH's excluded of course).

    But thanks for writing! You made my day.

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  11. Free,
    What is it specifically that has turned you off of O'Reilly? I've listened to him for years, and even though I don't always agree with him, he does do his best to present varying views, both left and right, and more importantly, in the center. He's quite respectful of dissenting opinions and he loves our country. He is quite often quoted out of context. He backs up his information with facts. He's done a tremendous job and has been very successful promoting Jessica's Law which helps to get child predators off the street. Isn't there something about him that you can find positive and refreshing?!

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  12. The Huffington Post and their friends at moveon.org and the daily kos allowed hateful posts when Tony Snow died. Just hateful. There is no excuse for that. Of course, you can't keep the crazies from posting hateful stuff, but you can monitor them and delete them!
    Those web sites do allow hate speech. There are also right wing blogs, but none that are as hateful as these. And to Free, read widely? Do you ever watch Fox news? most people who criticise them never watch them.
    The coverage of the presidential candidates has been fair and balanced, unlike MSNBC that is in the tank for Obama.
    Just my .02.

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  13. Hmmm. That's kind of rich, criticizing citizen commentary (posts on blogs) while praising corporate Fox, which used propaganda and outright distortions to sell us the Iraq war.

    If I was Bill O'Reilly, I would tell you to SHUT UP!, and cut your mike, or delete your post. He is a classic bully and laughable as a moralist (google "loofah").

    But he is not the problem, it is a distractable public who prefers nastiness to analysis. The first fosters opinions. The second, critical thinking.

    "Fair and balanced" is not possible for Fox or MSNBC or any other corporate media.

    READ widely.

    Here is intelligent, sobering analysis of our moment in history by a conservative historian. Enjoy.

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  14. Here's my Arianna story: Four or five years ago I attended a Democratic Party dinner, with Arianna as the speaker in a half-filled room (my area is not exactly left-leaning). After dinner I bought her book and dutifully stood in line for the signing. When I reached the table, she said, "Dees table eess tooo small. Let's moove. Come, my dear," and she takes my hand, towering over me as she leads me across the room. I chuckled to myself the rest of the evening. Arianna, taking charge. SISU

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  15. Anonymous, my local newspaper will not print ANYthing good about Dems and, post-9/11, would not print anything negative about Bush (for at least three years. I think it was longer.) I felt like I was living in a Fascist state, looking over my shoulder if I happened to utter something bad. All public TVs in restaurants, stores, etc. are on Fox News. I can't get away from it. And don't talk to me about Fair and Balanced: I once heard Bill O say that in the "interest of being fair and balanced", he should say that his guest worked for blah-blah (some right wing organization). THAT's Fair and Balanced?? Admitting he's on your side? I just don't get it.

    OK, I've vented!
    SISU

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  16. SISU, all you have to do is move here to the "left" coast. Most people here are so passionate they refuse to use their right signal light while driving for fear it would be a sign of weakness. :-)

    I thought about retiring to Oregon, but didn't want to be one of the four Republicans in that state. Hence I've decided to move to Wyoming, where Dick and I can discuss issues...

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  17. Good Luck with THAT, Cvow! Give me a call when you want to discuss things "over the fence". That's always fun....I'm free...
    SISU

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  18. Free-
    If you listened at about second #45 on your link, Bill O said Glick signed a statement saying America is a terrorist nation. That to me is unpatriotic and rediculious.And Al Franken? Give me a break. Failed talk show host and tax evader who says Bill O is a pathological liar? Fine if you say that, but back it up with some facts. Why all the hatred of Fox news? They get about twice the ratings of all the other cable news shows combined! Fair and balanced is the reason. Also, SISU, full disclosure is part of what fair and balanced is all about, something the other shows do NOT do. Lighten up, and take a breath of fresh air, and try to say, "I love this great country called America!"
    Just try it once!

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  19. Wow, Free, you must really be wound up. I've never seen you call anyone an "ignorant imbecile" before! I read all the posts and did not see where anon questioned your patriotism, but maybe I missed it. If I admit to watching Fox News are you still going to love me? :)

    I visited the left coast once and found the people to be polite and friendly, especially on the highway. I didn't get into any political discussions though. Maybe if my conservative leanings were known, I would have had someone stuff a flower up my tailpipe!

    Cvow, are you sure there are 4 Republicans in Oregan? I thought the last count was 3 but then I was wrong once also!

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  20. Sorry, 4Eyes, I'm not in a mood to suffer fools. I'll still love you if you watch Fox, but if you ever say, apropos my politics, "lighten up, try to say, I love this great country called America, just try it once!" I will recognize that as jerk-speak and respond accordingly.

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  21. I can give you names and addresses of quite a few Repubs in Oregon. Many with my maiden name. Curious, that.

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  22. Gotcha Free. I may disagree with your politics but I don't question your love of our country!

    Do try to relax, though. I can almost see your veins popping out on your neck. :)

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  23. No worries, 4eyes, I'm calm as a cuke. And I get to vote today, yay!

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  24. Yes, Free, go cancel all of my votes! :-)

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  25. Cvow, I'll bet your kids already cancelled your votes several times over, but why stop a good thing?!

    Do you get those annoying phone calls from candidates and their surrogates, asking for your vote? Yesterday one made us laugh. It was a canned message on behalf of Gregoire from a former elected official, who had JUST LEFT an uncanned message regarding a playdate for our sons. The same tone of voice was used in each!

    (To our anon poster who declined to grow up, you can contact me at extoot at symbol gmail.com, but I am not interesting in further debate about Mr. O'Reilly, who like Walmart has a lot of fans, but holds no interest for me. I gave you the links and I'm done with the subject.)

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  26. Actually Free, no hope for you there -- and they are all out of state so the races today are immaterial to them.

    Now when it comes to national politics, my three kids and their spouses all make me look like a card carrying liberal. Son-in-law has proudly hanging in his office a picture of himself when he worked as a page in Washington, shaking hands with Dick Cheney.

    Oldest son was guided not only by me, but also R. Emmett Tyrell, whose son was his college roommate. By the end of his first semester in college, son was pretty much convinced that Nixon was the greatest president ever.

    From recent conversations though, it seems this year we may all be voting Libertarian, since the Republican party really doesn't exist anymore. Small government and fiscal responsibility -- yeah, right. What we have today is two polarizing individuals, and I ain't gonna vote for either one. I can't think of anything good to say about Obama, and the only thing I can think of positive for McCain is that his wife owns a beer company.

    ...I might write in Ronald Reagan, because even dead he is a better choice than the two prime choices.

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  27. Free, the kicker is, Cvow is a really nice guy! And his cute wife is delightful charming. So I just park his politics outside my fence and enjoy him.

    When I visited my sister last winter (OALC) and told her I had seen Cvow, she replied, "You DID!? I thought he was...kinda...radical!" I was taken aback and asked what she meant. She said, "Well, you know, guns and stuff." I said, "Oh! I suppose that might be true, but I like him none-the-less."

    I've concluded that nice people come in all kinds of stripes. We all see the world through our own experiences.

    So, Cvow, if you want to vote for a dead guy, have at it!

    SISU

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  28. I believe it! Cvow is not only nice but he has a sense of humor and an independent streak, both valued highly in extoot-land.

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  29. Not only that, he (cvow) is highly articulate, thoughtful, and heartfelt. Haven't seen him since we were kids . . . hope to reconnect one of these days, somewhere besides extoots-blogland.
    "Trails"

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  30. Not only that, he (cvow) is highly articulate, thoughtful, and heartfelt. Haven't seen him since we were kids . . . hope to reconnect one of these days, somewhere besides extoots-blogland.
    "Trails"

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  31. Good looking! Why do they ALWAYS forget good looking?

    Thank you anyway for the undeserved compliments...

    SISU, I think your sister may have been thinking of another of our common relatives who was more than a little "radical" in the gun department, although I used to do quite a bit of hunting, was a competitive pistol shooter, and have often wondered if the Texas defense of "he needed killin'" might not be a good one in some cases...:-)

    ...and I think there are a few pasties in the freezer yet, Trails, waiting for your visit, although the juusto leipä and rieska is gone...

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  32. What!!?? No juusto leipa? (how do you do umlauts?) Well, serves me right for dragging my feet, or my tail, as the case may be. I made rieska once, and karjalanpiirakka (probably got the spelling wrong) when I visited my brothers when they were baching it in Brush Prairie, as young eligible men. One of my brothers took me to this huge bookstore in Portland, and I bought a Finnish cookbook that I still have and use occasionally. Made the korppus also, but eventually modified the recipe into something even better, if I do say so myself. As I said recently, yum, food. "Trails"

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  33. LLLreader sez: Oh cvow, cvow, cvow, there is no need to mention "good looking" when talking about Finn poys. It's just considered a given!

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  34. LLLReader, I had to laugh when I read your comment. How true! It brought back memories of Dem Poikas in my hometown, so cocky and full of themselves while all the girls fluttered in the background, bowing and scraping. We girls (or at least I) never had a chance! It has taken a lifetime to feel worthy as a human being; those early years of socialization are so ingrained. SISU

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  35. Yup. The boys/men are/were the more valued gender. Sad but true. That is said as a matter of fact. No bitterness.

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  36. Well, SISU, my experience was that a lot of those cocky and full of themselves types were -- as we used to say on the ranch -- all hat and no cattle. I think growing up there is a lot of misconception and bravado on both sides of the gender fence...

    Trails, I just do an insert symbol to put in the umlauts. I know you can also assign those "symbols" to some rarely used keys on your keyboard, but don't recall how off the top of my head. Karjalanpiirakkat....mmmmmm. Been many a year...

    LLLreader, we never did resolve the issue that we might be sukkulaiset. If you're interested get my email from Free and we can figure that out. I have my suspicions...

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  37. LLLreader sez: Free--could I get your email address? I need to find out who the heck this cvow guy is---and on another note, the Helsinki train station has a little booth that sells wonderful Karjalanpiirakkat, plus a fantastic donut like thing with meat inside-it's enough to make a Finn girl cry!!!!!!

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  38. Hi LLLreader! You can reach me at extoot(at symbol)gmail.com.

    Is Karjalapiirakkat more like a pastie or a pirogi?

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  39. LLLreader reports on piirakat: The filling is made with 2 C. rice boiled in small amount of water for about 10 min, add 5 C. milk and cook until thickened, remove from heat and add rest of stuff, 1 small can of milk, 2 eggs, 3 T. sugar, little salt, could even throw in a little butter. Make the dough with 1 C. water, 1 cube margarine, 1 t. salt, 1 C. rye flour, adding enough white flour to make firm dough. Divide the dough and roll out into very thin circles about 4-5 in. in diameter. Put 1 T. of filling in center of each, turning edges upward and crimp with fingers. They will look like little boats. Bake at 450-475 for 10 min. My Mom would dip the piirakat into melted butter and then cover them until we ate them (which was usually pretty quick)! They aren't very sweet, more like having a bagel with cream cheese. This is in a cookbook called Traditional Recipes from Finland, written in 1966 by Irene O'Connor. The recipes are written in both Finnish and English--wonderful small book!!!!!!

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  40. Thanks, LLLR. Sounds yummy and I would love to try one of those little artery plugs but making them will have to wait until winter, when our garden isn't pumping out monster squash. How many ways can you cook a zucchini? Tonight we are trying chicken lasagne using zucchini in place of pasta, and poblano cream in place of the tomato sauce. Not sure if the kids will go for it. They have very Scandihoovian palates.

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  41. A donut like thing with meat inside? You must mean "lihapiirakat", a palm sized half moon (some times they are round) made of a donut like dough with ground beef and boiled rice inside? I never made them myself but I think they should be easy to make. The most difficult part would be to deep fry them in oil. The dough is made of wheat flour, water, salt and yeast, and the filling is seasoned with black pepper and salt.

    ---

    In Finland, the "karjalanpiirakat" are often eaten like bread with slices of cheese, cucumber, tomato, meat etc. Personally I only eat them with either plain butter or "egg butter" (<- boil eggs, wait until they have cooled and mix with butter). If you want to get amused comments from Finns, eat them with strawberry jam like some tourists have been reported to have done. :)

    By the way, there's a big difference between the factory made "karjalanpiirakat" you can buy in any food store in Finland and the real home made ones. There are also some factory made brands that are quite ok, but most of them are quite different from the home made ones, and not nearly as good.

    Hibernatus

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