"laestadian, apostolic, gay, lgbtq, ex-oalc, ex-llc, llc, oalc, bunner" LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Cartoon Violence

Monday, February 06, 2006

Cartoon Violence

I'm interested in hearing what you think about the Danish cartoon debacle.

Should the Danes have refrained from publishing the cartoons? After the fact, should other media have refrained?

Yesterday after church, several of us got into an interesting debate on this topic. Even among Christians in the same congregation, there were several different opinions.


  1. The US media, at least, has not cared too much about hurting feelings. Yes, I would be disgusted if cartoons of God or Jesus were published, but should that justify destruction of property and or life? Let's be realistic. the Muslin faith is scary as "hell".

  2. I hope you mean that some Muslims are scary as hell. I won't argue with that. Islam is being used by extremists to justify hatred, and the voices of the moderates are either weak or silenced.

    When the Taliban destroyed the Buddhas of Bamiyan, did they justify their actions with the Koran? No doubt.

    Did Christians justify the Crusades with Scripture? Of course.

    Fundamentalism must be challenged whatever the faith. In a humane society, we must speak loudly against stupidity and ignorance. Tolerance of differences does not mean tolerating intolerance.

    The US media, as far as I can tell, are NOT publishing the cartoons, despite their value news (I saw them online). I'm not sure if this is self-muzzling from fear or respect.

  3. free2bme, I agree with you. The Muslim faith does not profess violence or hatred any more than do other faiths. I have quite a few Muslim friends, and the faith they practice is not the smokescreen you see the radicals trying to hide behind.

    With regard to the cartoons, there are two wrongs, and neither one of them is justifiable. The violent reactions by some Muslims are certainly not justified, but in my mind, neither was the publishing of cartoons that had only one agenda -- to ridicule and antagonize and hurt a group of people. It would be a real stretch by people I wouldn't care to know to claim those cartoons were funny. Likewise, I cannot see any reason for the publishing of such cartoons if they only serve a malevolent cause, hoping to injure another party. To publish those cartoons was not Christian. To react violently was not Muslim.

  4. The cartoons definitely shouldn't have been published. For a long time tensions between the Muslim world and the West/Christian world have been growing. Right now, while US occupuying Iraq, the crisis between Israel and Palestinians at its worst, Iran building a nuclear bomb, the Lebanese prime minister assasinated and the Pakistanians angry over their government for alliance with US, there was definitely no need for anything that could make the tensions worse.

    The press should realise that freedom does not come without responsibility.

    On the other hand the way a lot of Muslims have over-reacted proves how dangerous a heresy Islam is. The Muslims are the most intolerant people there are. The fundamentalists consider everyone else nonbelievers - murdering one will land you a place in heaven with loads of virgins. That is so sick. Even the most exclusive and judgemental OALCers are peanuts compared to these guys.

    This also proves a lot of Muslims have no idea what a democracy means.

  5. Anonymous said...

    "Even the most exclusive and judgemental OALCers are peanuts compared to these guys."

    I sometimes check this site out because I'm fascinated how people of faith criticize others of faith. This site is a perfect example and has much material that appears to be somewhat biased and sometimes even hurtful. One must ask himself when reviewing this material how many of the authors have an ax-to-grind, that is, to have a selfish reason(s) for saying or doing something.

    It would appear from a casual bystander that some of the authors have been hurt, and have not been able to forgive their offenders. I'm certainly not criticizing, because this is a struggle in my life too.

    The Word judgmental is used in the sentence above, the author obviously has a strong opinion, my question to you - has this influenced your actions? Because it certainly has influenced your thinking and you're writing.I read through your response and your conclusions, I could not see any strong correlation between the Muslim faith and the Lutheran faith in your argument. Are you saying that Muslim fundamentalists are murderers and Lutherans are not, are you saying that Muslim fundamentalists are murderers and Lutheran fundamentalists are not? Are you just ranting and raving and trying to work in your agenda?

    This site has lost so much credibility, it is very obvious that this site is set up for one reason, to sharpen the ax on a select group of people... you have became your own worst enemy, you have became biased.

    I encourage anybody who reads this posting (if it is posted at all), to open their hearts and forgive their offenders, and try to think and write with an open/unbiased heart.

    Again - Please don't be selfish with your forgiveness, the world needs more of it!

  6. In Iran, they're publishing similar cartoons about Jews and holocaust as a response to these Danish pictures.

    My opinion is strongly against publishing these pictures. People should have some respect for other people's values.

    (I am an SRK/LLC believer).

  7. Held Hostage!

    In watching world events, especially in how we talk about Muslim extremism, it reminds me that this discussion is being so carefully couched in rhetoric, that truth becomes the victim. As in today’s society, I find it interesting that a whole array of discussion topics, which should stimulate intellectual engagement and conversation about our very humanity are off limits and considered taboo. Consider certain discussions of the following topics: race, gender, minority crime, Islam, Native American, environment, unwed mothers, abortion, securing our borders, homosexuality, ethnic diversity, parental responsibility, school change & choice, welfare. These are only a few topics cry out for discussion, debate, understanding and meaning!

    Now, think about diverging in conversation from the acceptable societal norms these words normally parrot and invoke in the recent everyday lexicon of the media, schools and citizens of this country. It is evident, that the parameters of conversation and civic engagement on most of these topics have become labeled, boxed, predictable and confined. Why has this happened? Could it be that we, as a society, have allowed self-appointed conversation referees and speech incarcerators to hold us as emotional or intellectual hostages?

    These hostage-holders have been rather successful in defining the language and have developed techniques to quickly repulse any truth-seeking or divergent thought provoking invasion into these and other topic areas, which does not contain the message or terminology they demand. The pronouncement of single words, used as verbal Hellfire missiles, can quickly dispense of any intrusion into this realm of defined political correctness. Words like bigot, racist, homophobe, fundamentalist, extremist, intolerant, chauvinist, just to name a few, are quickly launched (correctly or incorrectly) and are all the explanation needed to justify the ‘hostage takers’ position. ‘End of discussion’ is their retort. Agree with me or else ‘I will label you, brand you, and quiet you’!

    It is incredible that the spawn for this intolerant, authoritarian, dictatorial thought process imposition, - originated, took root and has propagated itself in our institutions of higher learning, mega-religions, civic organizations, and our government agencies. By coercion, the society is now being infected with this communicable disease of intellectual roadblock and corruption. Isn’t it ironic, that these are the same institutions that are supposed to encourage free thinkers, uphold first amendment rights and reward deliberations with only minimal constraint? Instead, they are rapidly fencing off and retarding the free range of intellectual discussion and thought. Tolerance-Tolerance-Tolerance, and yet so intolerant – Why?

    How far into the abyss of idiocy and darkness can the conversation correctness (or incorrectness) dictators push (no, drag) us? Stand up, seek truth, and free the hostages!


  8. Huh?

    signed also a MnFinn

  9. The Qur'an states: "O you who have attained to faith! Be ever steadfast in your devotion to God, bearing witness to the truth in all equity; and never let hatred of any-one lead you into the sin of deviating from justice. Be just: this is closest to being God-conscious. And remain conscious of God: verily, God is aware of all that you do" (5:8).

  10. Some of you will dismiss this, some will see it makes sense.

    The people behind the cartoons were Flemming Rose (the neocon "cultural editor" of Jyllands-Posten) and Daniel Pipes (an American/Israeli neoconservative whom Rose is tied to).

    The United States and Israel are trying to get Europe's support for additional wars against Muslim nations. The ongoing violence plays right into this. Oh how perfect for America!

    To sum up, it was a carefully orchestrated PsyOps (psychological warfare operation) by the Zionist Neo-Cons designed to garner European wars for America's continuing misadventures against Muslim countries.

    Any research of Flemming Rose will show he is directly tied to the American neocons that created the big mess the world is now in.




  11. Thank you, anonymous above, for posting these links. I wish it was all addle-headed paranoia, but given recent history, it rings true.

    For the testy OALCer above (okay, I'm just guessing it's an OALCer) who suggests that I've set up this site to trash people and that I am biased, PLEASE DO NOT READ any further. I cannot guarantee that opinions on this site will be inoffensive (STOP READING ALREADY) nor can I guarantee (HEY, STOP) that I am without bias. But I forgive you for your complete lack of generosity in judging my motives, and I congratulate you for seeking out different points of view. God will help you grow.

    To Minnesota Finn, if you think political correctness is stifling the body politic, you should hang out in the blogosphere a while. Hoo boy. Hang on to your hat. It is apathy, in my view, that is the great stifler.

  12. Many Trails Home2/09/2006 12:22:00 PM

    Free2beme: Have I said this before? I think you are so great. Despite what some of the posters say, you keep such an even hand and show such wisdom, restraint, and depth of thought concerning these obviously incendiary issues that my "hat" goes off to you.
    To Anonymous 4:29 above: The word "heresy" (like "orthodoxy" and any number of other "Christian" words) is about as divisive and judgmental and un-Christlike (in my opinion) as a word can be. Here is my definition of "heresy," some version of which I have posted previously: "Heresy" is what I believe that you don't believe and since you don't believe what I believe you are certainly doomed." Is that the road down which we want to walk? MTH

  13. To Free2beme:
    "For the testy OALCer above..."

    I’m sorry you are wrong, try Non-denominational Christianity…should we move on.

    "Seek First to Understand, Then to Be Understood is the endowment of courage balanced with consideration."

    "Does it take courage and consideration to not be understood first? Think about it. Think about the problems you face. You tend to think, "You need to understand me, but you don't understand. I understand you, but you don't understand me. So let me tell you my story first, and then you can say what you want." And the other person says, "Okay, I'll try to understand." But the whole time they're "listening," they're preparing their reply. They are just pretending to listen, selective listening. "

    "The root cause of almost all people problems is the basic communication problem — people do not listen with empathy. They listen from within their autobiography. They lack the skill and attitude of empathy. They need approval; they lack courage." 1

    It appears that you are just pretending to listen, selective listening…. what about forgiveness, you never mentioned this in your response?

    1. Dr. Stephen R. Covey is an internationally respected leadership authority, family expert, teacher, organizational consultant, and co-chairman of Franklin Covey Co. He is also the author of several acclaimed books, including The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People.

  14. Thank you, MTH. To paraphrase your Rumi quote, there is a place beyond orthodoxy and heresy; let us meet there.

    To anonymous, the Covey quote is spot on. How exactly does it apply to this site?

    What is your interest in joining this conversation?

    Would you like to share your own journey?

    I am listening.

  15. To the "Non-demoninational Christian" We are interested in what you have to say and we are reading! Have your selectively been reading ours? I am assuming you are the writer of the comment that we have an "Ax to Grind".

    Have you ever read the preachings of Laestadius? Do you know what has happened to his teachings once the churches started to take hold in America? Do you realize for many of us we are talking about our own "People?" These are our brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles who feel that we are now not chosen, because we left "The one true faith"

    Please read carefully about the exclusion of our children in the family gatherings that take place.
    Please understand that the schools in many of these small communities are now having curriculum influenced by the members of this one faith. Please understand that this group does not want our "Worldly influence" when it comes to their children. They will exclude your children. They will influence your schools, if they can.

    This site is being use to keep all of us informed as to what is happening in other communities.
    It is necessary that we stay informed. We need to help each other. We need to inform our communities that we have to not vote in OALC members to positions that will only help their agenda.

    Would you not want us to share our opinion about the current president, our state government, our school officials? Would it be okay if used this site to complain about the Catholic church.

    Let us keep talking.

    God's Peace!

  16. I am in agreement with the last poster. thanks for writing. I understand what you people are going through.

    Gods Peace

  17. I haven't had the opportunity to see the cartoons that are causing so much havoc, but I think it is completely ridiculous!! Not very far removed from playground behavior. We try to teach our children that getting physical is NOT the answer, no matter what someone else has done. Obviously, there are always exceptions... self defense etc.
    These radicals(they don't deserve to be capitalized), pretend like they're angry, but I personally think they are thrilled. Afterall, the rest of the world will call them ists, if they do this sort of thing unprovoked,so they needed any excuse they could get. They need to grow up already!

    Sick and tired of political correctness ...