tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post7384333806655904516..comments2023-10-18T02:03:42.145-07:00Comments on LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: No More Christians!Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger61125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-28629021780766747182007-03-07T06:42:00.000-08:002007-03-07T06:42:00.000-08:00Thats funny. I have seen the cars with the bumper ...Thats funny. I have seen the cars with the bumper stickers plastered all over.I don't think people are turned on by that. <br>Did anyone see The Outsiders on Primetime last night? There is a Puerto Rican guy claiming to be Christ. He said he had a vision of two angels and the angels told him he was the second coming of Christ. And people are believing it, lots of them. Hes an ex criminal! He's been in jail. He's got the idea that there is no sin anymore. Anything goes. A crime is a crime, not a sin. I can't believe people are falling for it. I know the bible says people will come and claim to be Christ. Boy is that true!Faithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02242459196543357999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-57470599830784508922007-03-07T11:09:00.000-08:002007-03-07T11:09:00.000-08:00What's the "Christian no more" mean ...What's the "Christian no more" mean at the end of the clip?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-72340969347180606522007-03-07T11:23:00.000-08:002007-03-07T11:23:00.000-08:00I have a couple of brief comments about this spoof...I have a couple of brief comments about this spoof:<br><br>First, I think some of its humor is a little oddly misplaced. It makes fun of a Christian carrying around books. I see nothing worthy of mockery in that, speaking personally. In my opinion, it's a very good thing for people to be reading, the Bible inclusive, and especially books of moral philosophy, which is one kind of book specifically mentioned. I believe yesterday, today, and tomorrow are good times to do a lot more serious reading, rather than watching mindless network sitcoms, game shows, reality shows, sports, or even the endless river of dumbed-down documentaries that swarm cable TV like a plague of cranial locusts. <br><br>Second, I don't personally object to bumper stickers ot tee-shirts or almost any other way that Christians use to indicate that they are Christians. I don't personally understand why people find this so objectionable and worthy of mockery. Frankly, and again personally speaking, because I am not a Christian but once was, I WANT Christians to say that they are Christians and to show me what KIND of Christian they take themselves to be. I'd rather know who it is I'm talking to or dealing with on such serious matters as metaphysical or religious truth than staying in the dark about some guy or gal who is trying to show how loving he is in obedience to Jesus's commands. I'll always take loving treatment, certainly, but I want Christians to reveal themselves for what they are and not use subterfuge to get in my good graces. <br><br>Further, for many millions of Christians this practice of evangelizing in one way or another and of confessing their faith before other people are deemed duties. The Bible is their sacred book, and there are passages in it that call on Christians to spread the Good News of Christ and to show that they believe. Though I do not share the duty of evangelism or sanction its purpose, I have no objection to someone trying to persuade me to come to know the truth and be saved -- out of concern and love for me. If I don't want to hear it, I can walk away or tell them that I do not wish to hear it at this time. But I believe that letting Christians openly be Christians is important and liberating for those who have left the faith. It is hard sometimes, but we who have left must be mature and strong in saying that we are grateful for the concern for us, but stating calmly and confidently that their faith is wrong or that the evangelizing is not now needed. But to mock Christians for adhering to what they see as a command of their savior, the person whom they believe to be the God of the Universe, I consider that in itself objectionable. <br><br>Preaching the good news makes sense, too, for as Paul sensibly wrote, how shall they know unless the Word is preached? Though we unbelievers don't agree with what is being preached and don't like it, that position makes perfectly good sense. And even further, there are plenty of misconceptions about Christianity that its adherents must -- and have a right to try to -- counteract. But I'm one of those people who would deny to no one the chance to "convert" me to his passionately held faith, even astrology or numerology. I enjoy hearing about faiths of all kinds. I think it's part of growing up spiritually. That's how the Toots tried to keep me a child: prevent me from hearing about any other faith. <br><br>Finally, for me, again speaking personally, I have been much, much more hurt in my life from being shunned by Christians of the faith I once shared with them (the Toots in particular, but not exclusively) than from Christians who have tried to persuade me to bow my knee to Christ in the years since I converted away from Christianity. <br><br>Still, I thought the satire was mildly amusing.Ben Kilpelahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07027325794147891313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-91666577768215683572007-03-07T11:50:00.000-08:002007-03-07T11:50:00.000-08:00A little background info: this is produced by the ...A little background info: this is produced by the Community Christian Church. They are trying to send out a message of the difference between what they call Christians and Christ-followers. As far as I could tell, the message boils down to this: our faith should be made manifest in our actions and our lives rather than in labels we apply to ourselves or cultural "markers" we adhere to. This message seemed applicable to the Laestadian community because, in my experience, that community tended to prize outward cultural markers and self-applied labels more than genuine works of charity. Check out the links in the Metafilter post to learn more.<br><br>The overall point seemed sound to me, although there are plenty of details I could take issue with.Ilmarinenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06014881108189832114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-74970463254423053682007-03-07T11:54:00.000-08:002007-03-07T11:54:00.000-08:00I just happen to think its a bit much when there a...I just happen to think its a bit much when there are stickers everywhere, signs on the windows of the car. Just my opinion. I find one sticker to say more than 50. Anyhow, each to their own! We can appreciate all kinds.Faithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02242459196543357999noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-77008133754807191292007-03-07T12:42:00.000-08:002007-03-07T12:42:00.000-08:00Hi, Faith and Ilmarinen. Thanks for the comments. ...Hi, Faith and Ilmarinen. Thanks for the comments. As to Ilmarinen's comment, I would note that there are a number of Christian groups, often the liberal ones it appears, who wish to distance themselves from the more aggressive evangelizing practices of other Christian groups, which the more liberal ones often consider of lesser value. In this case the distancing is being accomplished by mockery. That would seem to be the purpose of the spoof, making a guess from what you have told us. In this context, my reaction remains almost the same, as I have babbled on about at length in a previous comment. <br><br>It's interesting to note that in my adult experience, from outside the Toot world, I have seen very little effort among the many Toots I know and know of to mark themselves as anything other than good, continuously-consuming Americans (a subject worth delving into). To remind you, I grew up in and left the Heidemannian branch, to which I have all my connections. I can't speak to other branches of Tootdom. And, regardless, I'd still rather have Christians wear their cultural markers as they see fit and all of us, Christian and non-Christian, be a lot more loving. It's not such a bad thing to wear or display markers, in my opinion. Indeed, it's a common practice across the world and in all ages of humankind. My kids see it every day in their schools, where almost every kid tries hard to observe the current fashion rules to keep from being marked as an outsider. We all use surface tags to display or to hide who we are all tghe time. I say, let Christians have theirs. <br><br>As to Faith, I can see your point. But I care very little about the amount of parading. In fact, I enjoy it. To take an example, here in Okemos, Michigan (a mostly rather well-to-do suburban community near Michigan State University), right after the start of the Iraq War, a Muslim father of a large family living in a slightly ramshackle and oddly painted house on a prominent corner in Okemos placarded the front of his house, which faced a busy intersection with a traffic light, with signs and announcements opposing the war and denouncing Dubya, his policies, and the US in general. I didn't have any problem at all with the fellow's brand of evangelism, which (I stopped to read many times) included a few calls on us heathens to submit to Allah before it's too late. I was rather glad to have him out there with his views rather than secretly brooding on his rage. I learned a few things, too. They've left town, and I've missed the running commentary.Ben Kilpelahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07027325794147891313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-5360403668489571302007-03-07T13:26:00.000-08:002007-03-07T13:26:00.000-08:00Ben, the FALCers seem to have the least emphasis o...Ben, the FALCers seem to have the least emphasis on external markers of group membership of all the Laestadian groups, with the exceptions of the IALC and some ALC groups. The OALC, as well as some ALC groups and the LLC to some extent, has a much stronger emphasis on markers, especially for women. For example, FALC women are generally allowed to dress in a mainstream fashion while OALC women are more likely to be prohibited from cutting their hair or otherwise following fashions "of the world." FALC kids are allowed to play sports in high school, but OALC kids generally are not.<br><br>I fully support people's right to identify themselves as belonging to a group, but when the focus seems to be mostly on external signs of identification, the phenomenon appears cloying, narcissistic, or claustrophobic to me. When those signs of group membership become mandatory at the penalty of rebuking or shunning, it seems we've crossed into unhealthy territory.Ilmarinenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06014881108189832114noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-61321230084509085432007-03-07T13:44:00.000-08:002007-03-07T13:44:00.000-08:00Wed Mar 07, 01:26:00 PM PST daisyaday said... I se...Wed Mar 07, 01:26:00 PM PST <br><br><br>daisyaday said... <br>I see the videos trying to communicate that if a person is so focused on having or reading the "right" books, wearing the right clothes for church, having the right bumper stickers, listening to the "right" music, whatever...if that is what they are focused on rather than having a heart like Christ, they have missed the mark. It wasn't so much that he was funny because he had all that stuff, or that he had the books, but that he seemed critical or slightly judgemental, maybe even unaware that there was another way to be a Christian. <br><br>Like when the second guy said U2--the first guy was so involved in the outward "things" of being a Christian that U2 went completely over his head.<br><br>He could talk the talk, but did he know how to walk the walk? <br><br>I can see what you mean, Ben, by saying that he was being mocked, but I thought it was more about his sttitude rather than for openly being a Christian. I guess they are still open for interpretation. JMHO.daisyhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03168831819807523569noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-11218281624027532742007-03-07T13:49:00.000-08:002007-03-07T13:49:00.000-08:00Thanks, Ilmarinen, for the further comments. I wil...Thanks, Ilmarinen, for the further comments. I will be pondering them with care, as I hope and trust you will ponder mine. We aren't so far apart, from my view, perhaps no more than putting the emphasis differently. I would say, trying to be brief (which can be difficult for me), that the wearing of markers among OALC women appears to me little more claustrophobic than the wearing of certain au courant markers among Michigan high school girls, such as the tightly enforced insistence on tight, hip-hugging jeans and tee-shirts that bare the midriff. Violate the rules and one will pay with diminishing "popularity," all girls unconsciously, but with perfect certainty, understand to their social peril. But, again, I will think carefully about your points. <br><br>One more comment: it has always been most fascinating to me that Heidemannians so cleanly separate their "worldly" lives from their "church" lives. They seem to oscillate back and forth with such ease and nary a worry.Ben Kilpelahttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07027325794147891313noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-76107514250074769162007-03-07T16:44:00.000-08:002007-03-07T16:44:00.000-08:00their was this very evangilistic guy at my work w...their was this very evangilistic guy at my work who who spend his free time reading the bible and checking out porn sites. He couldnt do it at home because he thought the computer should be in the family room as he didnt trust the sites hsi kids would visit. Just a bit of transferance, hey?backtothefutureccnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-38792982303859632582007-03-07T16:48:00.000-08:002007-03-07T16:48:00.000-08:00I know that comment had to be somehow related .......I know that comment had to be somehow related ....in other words I dont think you have to wear christianity on your sleeve. People will know you are a christian by your everyday actions. I think people who have to show it off have an underlying problem.backtothefutureccnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-9004311051625428492007-03-07T17:17:00.000-08:002007-03-07T17:17:00.000-08:00I always steer clear of showy "christians&quo...I always steer clear of showy "christians" , I just dont trust them, I grew up with very religious people, but i'm not sure they were christians, christ like, they never treated me very christ like.backtothefutureccnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-40539365522411617462007-03-07T17:49:00.000-08:002007-03-07T17:49:00.000-08:00Satire is obviously lost on some people.Everything...Satire is obviously lost on some people.<br><br>Everything can be mocked for comedic value. There are no sacred cows.<br><br>Sure, humans beings will always use some sort of symbol or identifier in order to show there social status or affiliation. If we did not we would all wear plain nondescript clothing like sacks. <br><br>Everyday when I wake up, or every time I am going to go someplace, I consciously think of my clothing choice and what effect it will have on my interactions with others. If I have mechanics clothes on and i am only going to the autostore, I won'c change. But what if I have to go to the grocery store also? Well then I change to something a little more decent. What if it is the gourmet store in the nice part of town, then even better clothes. BBQ in the hood, nice but not too nice. Work today, I have a meeting so I am going to dandy it up a little. We all make these decisions everyday.<br><br>But when you start to become sactimonious about what you where, or how what you where, or put on your car, you think shows to the world how you are a good person, is open to mocking.<br><br>College kid in a coffee shop reading kafka and wearing all black, begging to be mocked. Guys in Los Angeles (myself included) wearing $150 jeans, dress shirts and sportcoats with too much product in their hair? Begging to be mocked. Last but not least, "Chistians" who have 5 bumper stickers on their car, carry there religious books, everywhere, and always let you know that they are christian at any chance they get? Begging to be mocked.<br><br>I golf, and you see guys out there on the course who have every name brand in the world on their clothing and equipment and can't hit a ball. Begging to be mocked.<br><br>The videos have a point, quit trying to be so arche-typicaly christian, and just be a christian.Mr. Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-20720004545931304712007-03-07T18:32:00.000-08:002007-03-07T18:32:00.000-08:00Aargh. My dog just unplugged the computer and *poo...Aargh. My dog just unplugged the computer and *poof* went my painstakingly-crafted, erudite comment. So you'll get this one instead.<br><br>First I want to say to Ben, I'd like to read an update on your journal of doubt sometime. How did you arrive where you're at? Next I want to disagree with you. The OALC markers are not at all like coed markers, from the diversity thereof to their power. Whatever one thinks of modern fashion (often appalling, IMO), there lots of choices for women now. Choices: the whole point of feminism, a movement yet to reach the OALC.<br><br>Ben, you wish folks would be more open about their beliefs. I wish folks would have fewer beliefs, and hold the ones they have in humility, being open to adjustment with new information. One can only hope that a new Enlightenment will dawn, in which cultural diversity is respected while philosophical provincialism and denseness wanes. <br><br>In an interview on NPR today, an eloquent "former creationist" turned "evolutionary evangelical" named Michael Dowd was optimistic about the future of man (and religions in general), which he sees as primarily "making sense of our world" with the tools at hand. Naturally, 1st century tools were different than ours. <br><br>The universe is like a set of nesting dolls, he says. We reside in God, belief or no belief. "God's language" is nature: the facts of the universe. We discover this language through personal revelation (our sacred stories) and through shared revelation (science).<br><br>He thinks it is a great time to be alive in the history of the humanity, because as we grow in accumulated facts and understanding of them, we will increase in harmony / sustainability, and "religions will flower."<br><br>It's his mission to urge us along that path. You can check out his site at www.thegreatstory.org<br><br>He also mentioned that once he had a bumper sticker that showed a Darwin fish kissing a Jesus fish. A friend said "now you can piss off everybody." Or be misunderstood by everybody, at least.<br><br>I think all markers have that power, and I avoid them like I do cliches and logos on clothes -- recognizing that whatever one says or wears or buys or drives is a marker for folks looking for a shortcut, but to heck with 'em.<br><br>I see the video (and recent TV ads by the Church of Christ with the "comma" and gay couples -- ads that were rejected by mainstream media!) as an effort to reclaim Christianity from televangelists. Not sure how effective they'll be, but I say: godspeed.free2bmenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-89795682032072810402007-03-07T19:08:00.000-08:002007-03-07T19:08:00.000-08:00The Metafilter link had some good comments.. None ...The Metafilter link had some good comments.. None of us is exempt from scrutiny, which is a good reason to live authentic lives, and if we say we stand for something then our lives should show it! "By their fruits ye shall know them" And if we are still mocked, then so be it. Can't please everyone lol.<br><br>(neither the Mac nor the PC took the high road though, in this satire. If the Mac would have been holding a Bible his point would have been stronger, IMHO)Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-90985910611791692692007-03-08T13:06:00.000-08:002007-03-08T13:06:00.000-08:00So, the video is produced by the CCC church, and w...So, the video is produced by the CCC church, and when you read about them, you find that, wonder of wonders, they have a new book for sale, to tell us all what a Christian should be.<br>I am very suspect of any church group that is selling things!<br>No thanks. I'll read my Bible and decide for myself.4eyesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-91044140243850737182007-03-09T04:00:00.000-08:002007-03-09T04:00:00.000-08:00Wonderful! This is something that I am starting t...Wonderful! This is something that I am starting to hear more often from some ALC pastors. It seems as though there is more courage to say it the way it is, and high time! Bless you for posting this, 4eyes!Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-8559900429783294692007-03-09T07:55:00.000-08:002007-03-09T07:55:00.000-08:00After reading 4eyes post I am stunned to hear abo...After reading 4eyes post I am stunned to hear about the treatment of women and level of anti-intellectualism in other AL churches. In the IALC church, it was very much expected that both male and female would go to college, or at least a trade school. I would say the actual numbers of people that attended a 4 year university and did not would be relatively consistent of, if not a little higher then the national norms. <br><br>Anti-Intellectualism exists in the IALC, but not at such a high level. Sure, people still get married very young, but many women definitely go to school. Interestingly though, it was very much encouraged (for both sexes) to stay with engineering, science, or something that was more of a trade. Intellectual persuits like philosophy etc... were definitly NOT encouraged. If you were studying something outside the realm of acceptability, you kept it pretty hush hush.Mr. Smithnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-46177953368413736052007-03-09T08:44:00.000-08:002007-03-09T08:44:00.000-08:00Something that I would like to see discussed is th...Something that I would like to see discussed is the role of baptism as a means of new birth. It seems as though in mainstream Lutheranism (following the teachings of Luther), baptism is the means by which we are born again. In the LLL churches and other denominations, new birth is something which occurs apart from baptism. Recently I've begun to see baptism as critical, something that we can trust in to ensure that we are in God's kingdom..as per Luther's own words and explanations in his catechism. Thoughts?Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-42842364880968553022007-03-09T16:42:00.000-08:002007-03-09T16:42:00.000-08:00LLLreader to Ben: Wonderful post! You know that ...LLLreader to Ben: Wonderful post! You know that Raattamaa battled alcoholism. LLL continued to support and forgive him even as they were preaching together, and eventually Juhani was able to quit drinking. Do you think their relationship influenced LLL's uderstanding that it took a powerful force to overcome sin and to become a new man? I knew that Raattamaa was a powerful force in the development of the Apostolic Church, but this is the first time I have thought that his recovery may have had a huge influence. Also want to mention your take on why so many rules are given to the various branches. Of course, if WE have certain rules and YOUR church doesn't have the same rules then we must be right--so new and better rules have to be made all along the way. Kind of like the OALC taking some songs out of the Hymn Book--like Amazing Grace for goodness sake! Take THAT you other dead faith Apostolic churches!!!!! Thanks BenAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-1118527513149361152007-03-09T19:49:00.000-08:002007-03-09T19:49:00.000-08:00NEWSFLASH:There is no god.NEWSFLASH:<br><br>There is no god.L Proutynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-66872554850504270182007-03-09T22:33:00.000-08:002007-03-09T22:33:00.000-08:00Just some comments from my experiences. In the chu...Just some comments from my experiences. In the church I went to women were not encouraged to go to college except for something medical. Women are encouraged to not work if they have kids, that their greatest honor is to be a mother. One friend of mine who had thought she was unable to have kids said it is the greatest honor to be a mother but the way it was said hurt her because she felt like her life was worth less than a woman who could have children.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-36437365022446788812007-03-10T06:14:00.000-08:002007-03-10T06:14:00.000-08:00Mr. Smith, your perspective is interesting to me. ...Mr. Smith, your perspective is interesting to me. As a female who did well in school, I felt increasingly out of place at the IALC the older I got -- mostly due to the attitudes (even if unspoken) towards intellectualism and career women.<br><br>Yeah, a lot of the young women went to college, but from my perspective one *never* heard about what women *did* with their lives. Couple that with the omnipresent young marriages and (relatively) young mothers, and I really started to feel like that was supposed to be the route I was expected to take. Get a degree if you want, but be sure to do your duty by quitting your job and breeding! It was a route I was not at all interested in, for as long as I can remember -- in first grade I wanted to be an archeologist, for crying out loud! So as my friends were getting married and having kids, I was delving into my college studies. We simply had less and less to talk about.<br><br>I have also been told by IALC members on more than one occasion that "you better be careful about thinking too hard." I think now what they really meant is "don't tell me about the history of this church. I have to believe that this faith has not changed since day one or I'm doomed." So anti-intellectualism in the IALC? I know *I* saw it, and felt it intensely. It may be due to the lines of thought that interested me, or because I was born female, but it was clearly there.<br><br>Is it worse in other ALC's?Koivutarnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-27280824441485259252007-03-10T08:27:00.000-08:002007-03-10T08:27:00.000-08:00I left the OALC more than two decades ago. I was ...I left the OALC more than two decades ago. I was born and raised there. I can't remember ever seeing a woman who was a college graduate there. Men, yes. Women, no. What you described in the IALC was pretty much the way I saw it in the OALC.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-117722897394707732007-03-10T08:37:00.000-08:002007-03-10T08:37:00.000-08:00My 2 cents on education and the IALC. Keep in min...My 2 cents on education and the IALC. Keep in mind, I was not part of the "mainstream" groups in the UP, WI and MN. We only went to the big services there during labor day, memorial day and maybe a couple of other times. This kind of made me an outsider. Our congregation had at most 30 people; mostly over 40 years of age.<br><br>I remember a specific speaker who died around 10 years ago that was a prof at U of M in Ann Arbor. His son ended up a doctor and I believe is still in the church. I also recall doctors, engineers, teachers and some other professions. However, I dont remember one lawyer or restaurant owner; or businessmen in general and definitely not politicians.<br><br>For me personally and if I was still in the church, I believe that the career concept would be as follows: A "believer" needs to interact with the world and follow the world's laws. We don't interact or get involved in politics because "worldly" politics really do not matter, only faith matters. Therefore, one must work to maintain a family and tithe to the church. While working, one must not partake in worldly things: go to restaurants with bars, dance, gamble, play cards etc. You also must confess your beliefs if asked by a non believer. If you can follow all those basic rules, any career is ok.<br><br>I will admit that this seems to mostly go with the men in the church. I agree that women were expected to raise kids as a priority and were looked down on a bit for pursuing a career. Sucked to be women with the IALC. My mom who is still active is a very stubborn sisu-ish Finn and that aspect drives her nuts. But she only mentions it to my dad and very close friends. And she did get her masters degree while catching flack from church goers.<br><br>On the other note: I will also agree that the history of the church was never discussed with me. The only thing I remember was maybe one speaker quoting another "brother" from years past.<br><br>Good stuff on this site.<br><br>Take care all.rebelhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06202336217431027136noreply@blogger.com