tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post6368458280638854469..comments2023-10-18T02:03:42.145-07:00Comments on LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: The Nightmare of ChristianityUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger51125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-63113082163028260352009-09-15T12:44:30.559-07:002009-09-15T12:44:30.559-07:00Thank you for sharing with us this interesting art...Thank you for sharing with us this interesting article. Here are a few reflections.<br><br>I don’t understand why protecting the right to carry guns is that important for people in US?<br><br>In Europe you cannot generally get rights to carry guns intended to kill people with, like handguns/revolvers, not to talk about automatic weapons.<br><br>If you hare a certified hunter, you can get non-automatic hunting guns, and if you can prove you are interested in sport shooting, you can get a small caliber handgun. This concerns generally whole Europe.<br><br>If you go to a police station and ask for gun license because you are afraid and want to protect yourself, they will laugh at you, or advice you to a doctor.<br><br>In Britain all handguns are forbidden.<br><br>Secondly this article was about charismatic pentacolism. I would say that is very far away from laestadianism in Europe.<br><br>One reason laestadians does not want to have anything to do with the “religious right” here in Finland, is because the Christian democrats party is influenced by pentacolists. Laestadians generally consider these to be worse than atheists and Satanists.<br><br>If a person joins a wrong faith, where he believes he can be saved, the chance to be saved is much smaller than for an atheist and Satanist to be saved. I have heard preachers preach about this many, many times.<br><br>Even though the division between other faiths is not that sharp nowadays, I would say that about 99% of laestadians under no circumstances consider penthacolists and charismatics to be Christians.<br><br>Preachers often warns for these movements, which they consider to be witching, not Christianity. The Bible warns that there are coming witches in the name of Christianity in the last days, and preachers use these passages quite often.LaestadianInfohttp://www.youtube.com/laestadianinfonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-23860833252004388092009-09-15T13:56:37.000-07:002009-09-15T13:56:37.000-07:00I think the word you are looking for is "pent...I think the word you are looking for is "pentecostals". ;)Hibernatusnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-57343625121014734582009-09-15T18:59:28.059-07:002009-09-15T18:59:28.059-07:00I had a thought the other day about churches that ...I had a thought the other day about churches that try to make us all the same. I was walking along Lake Superior. The rocks are all different. It would be hard to find two rocks that are exactly the same. The colors vary. The shapes vary. The sizes vary. God created this uniqueness for us to enjoy. He created people to be different. We are not intented to be the same. We should enjoy and cherish our differences. When churches tell us what to wear and how to wear our hair and how to act and how to speak, we are not cherishing God's Creations! Let us enjoy our uniqueness, as we enjoy the rocks on the beaches!<br><br>God's Peace Always!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-11772156732942788432009-09-15T20:47:16.046-07:002009-09-15T20:47:16.046-07:00funny... your "Nightmare" is my sweet dr...funny... your "Nightmare" is my sweet dream.Matt Perkinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06529046356895711706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-58606537224360440282009-09-16T06:55:08.849-07:002009-09-16T06:55:08.849-07:00Hi Matt...cool to see you show up here, as I have ...Hi Matt...cool to see you show up here, as I have enjoyed the Laestadian-related postings on your own blog.<br><br>I took the title to have two different meanings. 1) a disturbed man raised in the faith but now raging against it returns with a weapon --that's one type of "nightmare." 2) the author thinks that right-wing Christianism is a "nightmare" for the republican party. While I'm not a friend of the religious right, I think "nightmare" is a bit over the top.<br><br>I do have an unrelated question for you though --from reading your blog it sounds like your own experience with Laestadianism is from hearing about it from friends. Have you spent any time in Laestadian churches firsthand? If so, which particular branches? If you can point me to particular blog posts you've made or will make on this topic, I would be willing to highlight them here as an example of the "sympathetic outsider's perspective." That's a pretty rare view, in my experience.Tomtehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08500352428811139358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-49576702784265013672009-09-16T07:21:18.634-07:002009-09-16T07:21:18.634-07:00I am never going to get anything done here at home...I am never going to get anything done here at home. Another interesting blog to follow :-).Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-87673314854739339352009-09-16T07:22:59.725-07:002009-09-16T07:22:59.725-07:00...and I like your thought, Anonymous 6:59. You a......and I like your thought, Anonymous 6:59. You are so right.. just think about all the variety not just in the rocks but in all of nature!Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-65834148882969610822009-09-16T08:21:13.950-07:002009-09-16T08:21:13.950-07:00Hey Tomte... Sorry, I was a little over the top in...Hey Tomte... Sorry, I was a little over the top in my first post... I think maybe I took what you were saying the wrong way. I went and read the story and it is a very sad one. I definitely feel for that young man who didn't seem to fit in anywhere... BUT... I think it's crazy to call YWAM or James Dobson "far right." Most of my friends think that Dobson is too liberal because of his views on masturbation - and I agree with them - seriously. I know a lot of people who have done YWAM. They loved it. They came back loving God more than they had when they left. Also, if conservative Christianity drove that guy crazy, why aren't there a bunch of other people going and shooting up churches? I mean I know there have been other church shootings but I don't think it's for the same reason as with that guy....<br><br>Okay, sorry for the snarky comment earlier. I've found your blog interesting although there is much I disagree with.<br><br>MattMatt Perkinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06529046356895711706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-87078690155659027152009-09-16T10:30:17.919-07:002009-09-16T10:30:17.919-07:00Matt,Where is your blog?Matt,<br>Where is your blog?cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07542845394936520037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-385362151212218712009-09-16T11:47:40.678-07:002009-09-16T11:47:40.678-07:00LLLreader chimes in: If you want to read a real n...LLLreader chimes in: If you want to read a real nightmare, check out Favorite Wife, Escape From Polygamy, about the LaBaron Family. Picture teenage wives, many children, poverty, craziness that just got worse and worse until people were being killed. I almost wish I wouldn't have read it, except that it does demonstrate what can happen to people's minds when relentless indoctrination is applied.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-18609709419214953522009-09-16T12:40:16.879-07:002009-09-16T12:40:16.879-07:00cvow, you can just click on my name, but my blog i...cvow, you can just click on my name, but my blog is:<br><br>http://northwestanglican.blogspot.com/Matt Perkinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06529046356895711706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-23535522021641999312009-09-16T12:56:53.606-07:002009-09-16T12:56:53.606-07:00Hey Tomte,Sorry to post so many times but I realiz...Hey Tomte,<br>Sorry to post so many times but I realized I didn't answer your question in my reply to you. Growing up on five acres east of Battle Ground our property was surrounded by neighbors belonging to the Old Apostolic Lutheran Church with names like Sarkinen, Tapani, and Kaski. While I was never close with any of these neighbors, we did interact from time to time. I remember a big neighborhood snowball fight one winter with the Apostolics versus the non-Apostolics - it was all in good fun though. Some of my best friends in middle school were also in the OALC. I went to church with one of these friends including Sunday school and then a big dinner with the whole family in the evening. It was a good experience although I don't remember much of the church service. In middle school the Apostolic kids I knew seemed no worse adjusted then the non-apostolics I was around. In high school we all kind of went our separate ways but it always bothered me a lot the way Apostolics were mistreated and made fun of by non-apostolics. I still don't like to hear the word "bunhead" or "bunner." Since high school I became friends with a family that left Apostolic Lutheranism but not the OALC - I think the left the ALC. THey don't have a positive view of Laestadianism and I'm willing to accept that what they say is true. I am in some ways sympathetic though because I think the OALC gets criticized for things that I don't necessarily see as being negative. I think that liberal "christians" are actually heretics for the most part who have abandoned the faith. I also think that Christians should be more separate from the world than most are. I know I fail at that though. From where I stand theologically I could probably be pretty comfortable in and ALC church or and LLC church from what I've read. I think the OALC is a bit "out there" for me though.Matt Perkinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06529046356895711706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-45399847891246335562009-09-17T20:05:11.778-07:002009-09-17T20:05:11.778-07:00'I think that liberal "christians" a...'I think that liberal "christians" are actually heretics for the most part who have abandoned the faith'<br><br>It's sad that you feel free to dump on Christians from other traditions in this way. That's offensive. <br><br>Throughout history, there have been many different flavors of Christianity, all with their own rich heritage and traditions. Just because you like vanilla doesn't give you the right to trash those of us who like chocolate. Live and let live.Ilmarinennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-27202346993015728502009-09-17T20:27:01.767-07:002009-09-17T20:27:01.767-07:00llmarinen,I know that those are strong words and I...llmarinen,<br>I know that those are strong words and I regretted using such strong words after I had clicked "publish." But I do disagree with you about liberal "christianity" being just another flavor like vanilla. God has given us a standard and that standard is His word, the Bible. It's not just about one person interpreting it one way and someone else interpreting it another. I actually grew up in a very liberal church and the majority of people there simply thought that large portions of Scripture were outdated. They were honest enough to admit that they weren't simply interpreting Scripture differently, they were actually rejecting the parts that they found outdated or offensive. I don't think Christians have the right to do that. We stand under the revelation of God not above it. If you want arguments for why Christians should believe Scripture then I can give them. But I'll put it this way, if someone doesn't believe in the physical resurrection of Christ they are simply not a Christian. And if someone teaches people that it is alright for them to remain in their sins I believe that person is guilty of telling a damning lie. That is why I used such strong words. And even though if I could go back I would have tried to say it more politely, I do stand by what I was trying to express there.Matt Perkinshttp://www.blogger.com/profile/06529046356895711706noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-11295058772454333852009-09-18T05:59:08.733-07:002009-09-18T05:59:08.733-07:00Matt, it's unfortunate that you feel the need ...Matt, it's unfortunate that you feel the need to set yourself up as the arbiter of who's Christian and who's not.<br><br>Do you believe that women need to keep their heads covered? Do you believe that it's wrong to wear clothes of blended fabric?<br><br>If not, I could accuse you of ignoring parts of scripture, but instead I assume that your religious tradition has developed in good faith a theological system that explains these kinds of seeming inconsistencies and makes sense of them.<br><br>I personally don't think its very useful to merely consign parts of scripture as being "outdated." That's lazy theology, and I know some people do it. But I also am left of center personally, attend a liberal parish in a liberal denomination and can tell you from personal experience that we read, mark, inwardly digest, and grapple with scripture in my community.<br><br>When this process is an intellectually honest one, people can and will come to different conclusions about parts of the Bible and how it applies to our situation today. We are all on a spiritual journey together, however, and will not cast anyone out based on some litmus test.Tomtehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08500352428811139358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-81321764789545195512009-09-18T06:24:56.323-07:002009-09-18T06:24:56.323-07:00No surprise, I agree with Matt. Enough said :-).No surprise, I agree with Matt. Enough said :-).Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-76846384776184439272009-09-18T08:11:55.451-07:002009-09-18T08:11:55.451-07:00"God has given us a standard and that standar..."God has given us a standard and that standard is His word, the Bible."<br><br>This has been discussed before here, and I think the Bible has been overrated as the only authority in faith.<br><br>I don’t think Luther fully knew what he was doing when he declared Sola Scriptura, and spawned around 40 000 Christian denominations founded on the Bible alone. ;)<br><br>More and more Christians around the world are coming to accept tradition and Church history as an authority in faith.<br><br>Some become Catholics; other just accept traditions as a part of teachings. Laestadianism is strongly founded in traditional Christianity and, and interpret the Bible traditionally.<br><br>"It's not just about one person interpreting it one way and someone else interpreting it another."<br><br>Unforunally the Bible isn’t a very clear book. Church tradition is much more unified than “Sola Scriptura” churches.<br><br>You can’t even oppose abortion if the only thing you have is a correctly translated Bible.<br><br>Laestadians (LLC branch) in Finland refers to Catholic Church teachings in these matters (Catholic Humanium Vitae).LaestadianInfohttp://www.youtube.com/laestadianinfonoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-34855043574999109922009-09-18T10:36:06.150-07:002009-09-18T10:36:06.150-07:00Stranger is trying to ingest all of these argument...Stranger is trying to ingest all of these arguments as she sits bareheaded at her lunch break eating shrimp stir-fry that spilled on her polyester-cotton blend top.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-81080365328244580492009-09-18T19:46:39.088-07:002009-09-18T19:46:39.088-07:00Stranger, I don't know exactly why, but that c...Stranger, I don't know exactly why, but that cracked me up. (I hope you got the stain out.)cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/07542845394936520037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-34149395742915524622009-09-18T23:43:21.331-07:002009-09-18T23:43:21.331-07:00"God has given us a standard and that standar..."God has given us a standard and that standard is His word, the Bible."<br><br>No, the church predates the finished product you call the Bible. Because the church existed before the finished Bible, the Bible is not the only means of defining the church. If you want to talk about heresy, I could call you a heretic for the sin of Bibliolatry. What's more, unless you worship on Saturday and give all your money to the poor, I could again consign you to the fires of Hell as a heretic. <br><br>Excommunicating those who disagree with you is cheap and easy, but I feel you are better than that. Please rise above that simple temptation and respect the earnest Christianity of those who hail from the progressive end of the spectrum. I'm sure you are busy enough with your life as it is - leave it up to God to bear the heavy work of judging.Ilmarinennoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-59959286230649155862009-09-19T01:18:59.892-07:002009-09-19T01:18:59.892-07:00Yes that's true.It's hard to deny the auth...Yes that's true.<br><br>It's hard to deny the authority of Church, and that Church was (and is) guided by the Holy Spirit, because church had to be that in order to put together Gods word, the Bible.<br><br>Sentimental has uploaded another beautiful psalm. You can hear it by clicking on my nick. <br><br>I noticed this psalm is written 1551 (at least the melody to it).<br><br>Many psalms are that old, and carry the traditional Church teachings as message, so when laestadians sing this song on their services, we also get a message carried by the church by tradition, from the first years up to 1551 and to our days.LaestadianInfohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TT3iZSckZ_8noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-68363333249501287772009-09-19T03:35:00.232-07:002009-09-19T03:35:00.232-07:00This blog is an interesting study in groupthink, a...This blog is an interesting study in groupthink, and never fails to deliver.Norahhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16601605468299470951noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-30624399152521542482009-09-19T07:09:57.076-07:002009-09-19T07:09:57.076-07:00Norah, can you define what you mean by groupthink,...<b>Norah</b>, can you define what you mean by groupthink, and explain how it differs from a discussion?<br><br>In my mind, we have you and Matt on one end of the spectrum, me and Ilmarinen on the other, LaestadianInfo, cvow, and Stranger somewhere in between. How is that groupthink? It seems to me like a range of perspectives are being aired.Tomtehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08500352428811139358noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-37568124353722748762009-09-19T09:20:05.919-07:002009-09-19T09:20:05.919-07:00Now is attached to my Nick another psalm posted by...Now is attached to my Nick another psalm posted by Sentimental on Youtube. I don’t like the singer, but the song is very commonly sung on laestadian services. It’s written in 1694.<br><br>I think we are on the right track when the preachers preach the same we sing in our old, and sometimes very old songs and psalms. <br><br>The message is however pretty far away from many modern Christian movements, especially charismatics, pentacolist and many other things you can see on God TV.<br><br>I have sometimes watched the God TV channel, and got pretty terrified.LaestadianInfohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_-lkHObLaUAnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-23810628304865537412009-09-19T09:44:51.081-07:002009-09-19T09:44:51.081-07:00If you click on my Nick now you can hear another o...If you click on my Nick now you can hear another old psalm commonly sung by us. It’s actually written by Marttin Luther in 1528. I think this should be in laestadian songbooks in US too under the name "A Mighty Fortess is Our God".LaestadianInfohttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4x5zZ2NOkUnoreply@blogger.com