tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post5656801384839876296..comments2023-10-18T02:03:42.145-07:00Comments on LEARNING TO LIVE FREE: Getting PhilosophicalUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger59125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-44593542147851418972007-01-20T20:42:00.000-08:002007-01-20T20:42:00.000-08:00I am here, please converse.I am here, please converse.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-67093545631625338092007-01-20T22:12:00.000-08:002007-01-20T22:12:00.000-08:00Do you come from a Laestadian background?Do you come from a Laestadian background?Julie Whitehornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16921829370327742832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-75573716350214990762007-01-20T22:14:00.000-08:002007-01-20T22:14:00.000-08:00More to the point, if you are familiar with LLL, d...More to the point, if you are familiar with LLL, do you think his science affected his theology?Julie Whitehornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16921829370327742832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-59296466799344237742007-01-20T22:47:00.000-08:002007-01-20T22:47:00.000-08:00Sometimes I question whether our idea of free will...Sometimes I question whether our idea of free will is an illusion, and everything is deterministic. If so, the existence of God wouldn't make much difference. One study showed <a href="http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=6640273" rel="nofollow">"The onset of cerebral activity clearly preceded by at least several hundred milliseconds the reported time of conscious intention to act."</a><br><br>Einstein <a href="http://www.einstein-website.de/z_biography/credo.html" rel="nofollow">said</a>, "I do not believe in free will. Schopenhauer's words: 'Man can do what he wants, but he cannot will what he wills,' accompany me in all situations throughout my life and reconcile me with the actions of others, even if they are rather painful to me. This awareness of the lack of free will keeps me from taking myself and my fellow men too seriously as acting and deciding individuals, and from losing my temper."<br><br>Ultimately, I don't think it makes too much difference whether free will exists, because it feels as if it does. In the same way, even if love is a deterministic result of evolutionary adaptation to allow for better gene transmittal, I still feel it. The love is still real to me.Ilmarinenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/08419043306301112831noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-47294962409993548382007-01-20T22:59:00.000-08:002007-01-20T22:59:00.000-08:00There is no god. That sort of simplifies all kind...There is no god. That sort of simplifies all kinds of things, doesn't it? History will judge us as simple minded and naive. Belief in god belongs in the same rubbish bin as the idea that the sun revolves around the earth.... which by the way is flat and has dragons at the edge of the map.<br><br>http://tinyurl.com/3dlc5qHoratio Mattilanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-43391377365095346722007-01-20T23:06:00.000-08:002007-01-20T23:06:00.000-08:00Research I read in a Psych. and Religion class cla...Research I read in a Psych. and Religion class claimed that scientists in biology and medicine tend to be less likely to believe in God, while those from the "hard sciences" like physics were more likely to believe, or accept God's likelyhood. <br><br><br>I am curious if LLL had any educated contemporaries who wrote about him that would provide insights?<br><br>I also am inclined to wonder if the basis of his theology might be similar to St. Augustine. Augustine spent his younger years basicly living the wild life, then later preached on and on against the "flesh" and worldly concerns. He had alot to do with the whole mind /body ( body/ soul) split in western thought. How else does your theology get to be a big list of what not to do? <br><br><br> I think free will is a requirement, or why would God bother?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-43586007651321336252007-01-21T11:07:00.000-08:002007-01-21T11:07:00.000-08:00Re:Neckties,the Milky Way,and the Universe. I h...Re:Neckties,the Milky Way,and<br> the Universe.<br><br> I have my own philosophy based in<br> part on this quote by Carl Sagan<br> in Comos and my own study of the<br> sky:<br><br> "A handful of sand contains about<br> 10,000 grains ,more than the<br> number of stars we can see with<br> the naked eye on a clear night.<br> But the number of stars we can<br> see is only a fraction of the<br> number of stars that there are<br> ---The total number of stars in <br> the universe is greater than all<br> the grains of sand on all the <br> beaches of the planet earth."<br><br> Our sun is only one of these<br> grains of sand with a small<br> blue planet orbiting it at <br> exactly the right distance and<br> tilt to make life and this<br> discussion possible ! <br><br> Considering the scope,grandeur,<br> and mystery of the above do you<br> honestly think God is concerned<br> with your neck attire ?<br><br> I am with MTH on this. God sent<br> Jesus to this planet to instruct<br> us to "Love thy neighbor" and how<br> we do this is up to us.<br><br> P.S. Free will is a tough one.<br> I will however use it to<br> comment later.Trollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-78395296357666784202007-01-21T13:53:00.000-08:002007-01-21T13:53:00.000-08:00Ditto to anonymous: "I think free will is a ...Ditto to anonymous: "I think free will is a requirement, otherwise why would God bother." Well put. <br>Here I will go out on a limb. If one does not accept the possibility of reincarnation, then a lot of the experiences and predicaments of mankind seem hopelessly unfair. What good is free will if we are born into some hopelessly abusive circumstance? Or mentally deficient, physically handicapped, psychotic, etc etc. That aspect of existence - what we are born into - would certainly appear predetermined and I believe it is. What we make of it is up to us: free will. <br>The corollary is: we are not "punished" because we got an apparently "raw deal" in the birth-attribute sweepstakes. We make of it what we can and "will." Whether we consider it "good fortune" or "bad fortune" to have been born into Laestadianism, it was part of the deal. And I am quite sure "God" takes all that into consideration. The universe is magnificent and orderly, and I believe so is our own existence and place in it.<br> <br>I love the quotes of Einstein, Sagan, et al. MTHMany Trails Homenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-37840007119487986152007-01-21T15:02:00.000-08:002007-01-21T15:02:00.000-08:00Living in what I admit is a pretty black and white...Living in what I admit is a pretty black and white world, I usually don't get into philosophical discussions where there is no data but no shortage of opinions! However, I am finding this discussion quite interesting. I believe that God is interested in us, listens to our prayers, and protects us from a lot of dragons that we don't even know exist. I agree with Trails that we are dealt a hand and what we do with it is where the free will comes in.<br><br>People are born into the world in every conceivable situation possible, and some rise to great heights regardless of where they started, as others fall to great depths from similar beginnings.<br><br>One concept that I've mulled over many times is that of predestiny. When in a situation where I have little control over the outcome, I have a deep and abiding faith that what is meant to be, will be -- and whether or not I agree with the result matters not a whit. How many times have we all had something happen in our lives that caused us great angst, only to look back on it much later and realize we need to thank God because it was exactly the right solution?<br><br>That said, I also believe that we have free will to do or not do, to believe or not believe, to love or not love, and so on. While I believe God has given us an intellect and certain level of understanding that will allow us to exercise that will and serve him, I wonder sometimes whether we shouldn't turn more of our lives over to him and worry less about steering the ship ourselves...<br><br>Perhaps unfortunately, as a Myers/Briggs ESTJ, my prayer could too often be described as "It's all in your hands Lord, but if you need any help..." :-)cvowhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05363193317516090926noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-68140099646004579482007-01-21T17:46:00.000-08:002007-01-21T17:46:00.000-08:00To the coward who posted that hateful message abou...To the coward who posted that hateful message about my wife (which the host deleted for good reason): You know who you are. Why are you arfaid of attacking us outside the cloak of anonymity? Like it has been said here befofe, guerilla warfare is OALC specialty. When I have a problem with an OALC member, I call them. Just ask your preachers. Not only do I call them, I have e-mailed two of them but have not gotten responses nor do I expect they will. You dont have to post your name on the blog, just give me a call. Obviously we know each other.Artienoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-88706088642507797442007-01-21T23:15:00.000-08:002007-01-21T23:15:00.000-08:00Also to the yellow OALC'er Artie is refering t...Also to the yellow OALC'er Artie is refering to...<br><br>Does it bother you that your "leaders" would LIE to get hold of web domains and stifle free speech?<br><br>Your rude, hatefull, ugly comment shows the OALC teaches a basic lack of respect for women in particular, and anyone who does not agree with you in general.<br><br>If you do not like freedom of thought, speech, religion, freedom for women to think for themselves, dress how they would like to without being stoned... maybe The United States Of America really isn't the country for you and other like minded people????Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-23176759939772427062007-01-22T06:45:00.000-08:002007-01-22T06:45:00.000-08:00The attitude of some in the OALC is becoming more ...The attitude of some in the OALC is becoming more & more apparant in their postings. I am not saying all, but some. Exactly the way they have been described is coming to fruition on their own behalf. <br>I for one could never be a member of a body of "christians" who act, treat & speak to others outside their reality, the way that they do.<br>I wish they would all read their bible....the word & instructions of God. They would find great error in their teachings, practices & attitudes. <br>It would scare the skirts off most of them & at the same time it is so sad to see folks just wanting to do right by God, but being led by men & preachers to go directly against what Jesus Christ came to earth to live & die for.<br>Attitudes & actions of some in the OALC make the plight of Jesus Christ worth nothing.<br>The bible doesnt say only love those who agree with you. It says love your neighbor (no matter who it is....like Jesus did) AS YOURSELF.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-61364474725655060282007-01-22T06:50:00.000-08:002007-01-22T06:50:00.000-08:00adding to above -If you give someone a long enough...adding to above -<br><br>If you give someone a long enough rope, they will eventually hang themselves.<br><br>If you give a ignorant minded person a shovel, they will eventually dig their own grave.<br><br>It looks like you have handed a few people a shovel & a rope. It's up to them (by actions & comments) what they do with them!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-20634807274923968672007-01-22T08:47:00.000-08:002007-01-22T08:47:00.000-08:00Wow, the post from the yellow-belly oalcer must ha...Wow, the post from the yellow-belly oalcer must have been a hum dinger, to get everyone so riled up! It was deleted before I could read it. I am not surprised. Unfortunately, there are some hateful people in the oalc, not all, but some.<br>Isn't it interesting that the oalc preaches that the internet is a sin, but they violate their own words and come on these sites to argue and try to stifle free speech. Of course, they should put up their own web site, but they can't as long as they preach against it as sin! If it wasn't so sad it would almost be funny.oalc-doubterhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/11015951594573771278noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-66815017210176272782007-01-22T08:54:00.000-08:002007-01-22T08:54:00.000-08:00"Professor"No, am not a janitor, rather ..."Professor"<br><br>No, am not a janitor, rather a research and program assistant working on my master's degree. And yes, its possible even I can make a typo although I generally spell quite well. I never claimed to be pefect. <br><br>And in case you hadn't noticed, the clown college link was a bit tongue-in-cheek. <br><br>I don't look down on anyone for not going to college. I didn't start myself until I was in my mid-twenties, when it became obvious I had to begin means to support myself. My own grandparents had less than an 8th grade education. My great-grandfather, an Apostolic Lutheran Lutheran minister who started out preaching with the OALC in North Dakota, was self-educated to the point he was able to act as a lawyer and was called upon to help draw out wills and other legal documents. <br><br>My problem with you is that you so obviously pretend to be a professor of a university, when its obvious you don't have enough knowledge of academic work to even place yourself in the right discipline. Do you think that among this "worldly" audience, identifying yourself as a pedagogue will shame us into quitting this blog?<br><br>The fact is, its a free country, and we have our right to express ourselves as we wish. <br><br>Why don't you start your own blog that is pro-OALC to refute this blog? It seems it would be a better use of your time rather than falsely identifying yourself as an adademic.stranger in a strange landnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-21842026595023036392007-01-22T09:32:00.000-08:002007-01-22T09:32:00.000-08:00The continued generalizations kill me. I regret a...The continued generalizations kill me. I regret any inappropriate messages, but do you have to likewise respond with the statements which link most OALC'ers as haters. You don't know who is writing to incite. I can't think of one relative of mine who would. Opposing opinions and even a little testiness is obviously going to occur in a blog of this nature, but STOP PUTTING ALL OALC'ers under one label. Free, can you not see this? Do you label your own family this way? I surely would like to see a little defense stated in behalf of a group that is getting attacked from all sides. I've looked at myself as an observer, but am really wondering now what the invitation to OALC'ers is all about.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-10947640642755011462007-01-22T09:56:00.000-08:002007-01-22T09:56:00.000-08:00I think we should use this discussion to teach the...I think we should use this discussion to teach them what they believe in. I feel most of them do not even know themselves. Still no response from the OALC preachers if "Faith to Faith" is how they believe. I am sure they have read it by now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-85043803030674673792007-01-22T10:44:00.000-08:002007-01-22T10:44:00.000-08:00Anonymous, I would never label the OALC haters, le...Anonymous, I would never label the OALC haters, least of all my family. They are sweethearts.<br><br>Sure, there have been overgeneralizations . . . but there has also been restraint. I let it all go -- but when it gets personal I have to draw the line.<br><br>The hateful message (advocating violence) named names, or I too would have suspected that it was a prank designed to draw fire (or to demonstrate how low this blog can go).<br><br>Now, can we get back to free will and the nature of God? Thanks for all the intriguing posts on that subject. Horatio, you don't believe in the same God I don't believe in, if it is the old man in the clouds we're talking about.<br><br>As for LLL having a wild youth like St. Augustine, I don't think so. He was very poor and a dedicated scholar. Perhaps he envied wild youth, though (he complained about his fellow researchers -- on the French excursion to collect botanical samples from Lapland -- wining and dining on the boat while he tramped around the tundra). Perhaps the source of his legalism is revenge?!<br><br>Now about free will and all that, I suspect that like Ilmarinen, it doesn't matter. But fun to ponder. The other day our 6-year old daughter was musing about where we go after we die: "Maybe now we're in a bubble, and outside of that bubble, there is another bubble, and outside of that there is the real world, you know, with unicorns and fairies and stuff." A little girl's fantasy of heaven! It reminded me of CS Lewis and his idea that in heaven the grass is so real, so sharp, it cuts mortal's feet.Julie Whitehornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16921829370327742832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-25808858093230083012007-01-22T12:14:00.000-08:002007-01-22T12:14:00.000-08:00Free, I was pondering this last little conflagrati...Free, I was pondering this last little conflagration at some length. I was admiring your restraint in pulling out the offending OALCer post, as I probably w/have been inclined to leave it in and let "him" hang by his own petard - however, I don't remember the details and it was definitely inflammatory. But it certainly was proof from their own mouths of the attitude of at least some.<br>So regarding lumping all the OALCers under that umbrella: of course they don't all fit that venomous mold BY ANY MEANS. However, in a closed-belief system such as the OALC (or fundamentalist Islam), the most extreme have the strongest influence. Whoever heard any preacher preaching "moderation" in anything? I never did. In fact, the more moderate were less likely to be sent on the missionary circuit. The OALCers who actually BELIEVE and live moderation do it quietly, keeping their attitude more to themselves and toeing the line publicly. The hard-liners have the appearance of strength and righteousness, and they are difficult to argue against from the inside. Therefore they carry more weight and influence than their numbers would suggest. That's why I think it does matter what the hard-liners think, more than the moderates.<br>One of the ABSOLUTE BLESSINGS of a site of this sort is the OPENNESS, the "glasnost," the pursuit of the TRUTH about which so many of us are passionate. The TRUTH is something that will forever remain buried in absolutist organizations such as the OALC, where to think is to question is to "doubt" is to jeopardize one's eternal salvation. Therefore is "doubt" considered one of the most treacherous of sins. BS I say, triple BS. The squelching of questioning leads to tyranny, in this case "spiritual tyranny." The very inflammatory nature of the yellow-OALCer would support that. Whew, I wish him freedom, freedom from fear and tyranny, the poor . . .<br>One of my brother's friends, a very moderate fellow, standing with me in the food line after church, said "It's important to keep busy so we don't have time to think." Supposing we ran our country like that, we'd be under some hard-line dictator for sure. But they don't see the analogy.<br>Yet all in all, we must wish them well, wish them God's peace, wish them wisdom and understanding. I have great love for many of them. MTHMany Trails Homenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-40565632847928444412007-01-22T12:43:00.000-08:002007-01-22T12:43:00.000-08:00I think doubt can actually be the Holy Spirit tryi...I think doubt can actually be the Holy Spirit trying to tell you something. To not be able to doubt, is not being able to think objectively.Faithhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/12086359067322870879noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-80352529126674534232007-01-22T12:53:00.000-08:002007-01-22T12:53:00.000-08:00to anon Jan 22, 932I was very surprised to hear, w...to anon Jan 22, 932<br><br>I was very surprised to hear, what sounds like a current oalcer, upset that all oalcers were put under one label. In my experience being raised oalc, and still every current member I know, that is exactly what they want and must have: one mindedness, one everything: the oalc. And there are two categories of people: oalc and non oalc.<br><br>However I think its healthy to be upset at a "one label for all" judgement, and Im personally very excited to see a current oalcer with that upset. I have always had a pet peeve about being judged as a "one label non oalcer" this way by current oalcers. you are absolutely right, and I have always felt: stop judging me by what church I do or do not attend!!! Please get to know me for who I am and what I believe!!!<br><br>I am not the one who extended the invite to current oalcer, however I wholeheartedly agree and second it because I love to discuss issues with people, regardless of our differences. The difficulty comes, when just as you stated, generalizations are used as content and people are not really listening to each person as an individual. <br><br>So my understanding from reading these posts: the "generalized" comments can apply directly to the individual involved. If you are not like that, please by all means let us know what you are like, what you do think, feel, believe, etc. We would be happy to get to know you and have discussions with you! <br><br>anon jan 22, 956<br><br>It would be nice to be able to teach the oalcers what we think they believe, but that puts us in the same boat I get so peeved at them for: them trying to tell me what they think I believe. It seems to me the best we can do is stick to free's statement: can we get back to free will and the nature of God, encourage them to read the bible. We cant speak for them or to them, anymore than I want them to do that for me. We all have one great resource to use as our foundation and I think we should stick to that.hp3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-41390519647115842422007-01-22T13:52:00.002-08:002007-01-22T13:52:00.002-08:00I am an OALCer. I am here to converse on the subje...I am an OALCer. I am here to converse on the subject of the church. Any topics?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-29146695704808052942007-01-22T13:52:00.001-08:002007-01-22T13:52:00.001-08:00Free I respect that you keep this blog open to dif...Free I respect that you keep this blog open to differences, and still prevent it from becoming personal. That is a great middle ground.<br><br>MTH I always respect and appreciate your love and kindness that shines through in your posts. I aim for that, but often fall short with my temper. Thank you for being a calm anchor here.<br><br>cvow I completely agree with your statement about usually not participating when there was little to no data but no shortage of opinions. I had to ask myself why? I think its because Im still sorting out my own opinions and beliefs. I find so often that I havent come to an opinion on my own yet, and I refuse to follow someone else's, that are as variable as there are individuals, so I absorb and digest for awhile first. But yes this conversation is interesting and I will be following along :)hp3noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-15149179419466775282007-01-22T14:03:00.000-08:002007-01-22T14:03:00.000-08:00Welcome, OALCer. Please clear something up for me....Welcome, OALCer. Please clear something up for me. I recall in my youth that the OALC taught that it was "the Only Living Christianity" and that other churches, including the ALC, were "heresy" or "Dead Faith." Is this your understanding?Julie Whitehornhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16921829370327742832noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-8088717.post-14798962573641143812007-01-22T14:08:00.000-08:002007-01-22T14:08:00.000-08:00cult Collective veneration or worship (e.g., the c...cult <br><br>Collective veneration or worship (e.g., the cult of the saints — meaning collective veneration of the saints — in Roman Catholicism). In the West, the term has come to be used for groups that are perceived to have deviated from normative religions in belief and practice. They typically have a charismatic leader and attract followers who are in some way disenfranchised from the mainstream of society. Cults as thus defined are often viewed as foreign or dangerous.<br><br>Ran across this definition of a cult and wanted to share. This does not fit the OALCer's that I know. I have never none them to be dangerous. The ones I know are kind and loving and would go out of their way to help me or anyone I know. To bad that the ones that come to this site are giving all of their other followers a bad name. Have a great day!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com